Bernt Spiegel
02-02-2017, 05:41 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Bernt Spiegel
This is a bit out of left field, but the pictures of the 992 mule and musings about what driver-focussed things might be lost in the name of efficiency and 'progress' got me thinking about a book I've just re-read - The Upper Half of the Motorcycle, by Bernt Spiegel. Has anyone else had the pleasure?
Spiegel is a behavioural psychologist, and the book is translated from German. It's kind of extraordinary - an advanced riding guide (it's bike-centric, but also talks about cars, and a lot of what he says applies to both) but it comes from the perspective of the evolution of the human brain, and how we interact with the physical world.
The book's main theory is that elite riders and drivers use their vehicles not as pieces of equipment but rather in the manner of highly advanced prosthetic limbs. The example he gives is of running a pointer down a tiled wall. Even with our eyes closed, we could easily tell where each tile started and stopped, and we experience the contact - what Spiegel calls the interface - between ourselves and the tiled wall at the end of the pointer. The pointer has become like a part of our body - a prosthesis.
Spiegel argues that elite riders and drivers experience the contact patch of each tyre in the same way as a normal person experiences that pointer - they do not ride the bike; they become part of it and have as much intuitive sense of grip as we would walking barefoot down a steep hill (indeed the sole of a shoe is another good prosthesis example - we experience the shoe's grip simply as our own). The theory I want to present to you is that a lot of what we talk about as 'driver-focussed' or 'pure' - feelsome steering, crisp throttle response, sensibly servoed brakes etc - are in fact things that allow us more easily to become a part of the car in the sense that Spiegel describes.
I got thinking about this when I drove my friend's new-to-him 987.2 Cayman S (Tom I know you read this stuff so post some pictures already!). The steering feel of that car was definitely better than my 981, not in terms of cornering so much, but just that feeling of trailing one's fingers down the tarmac and knowing exactly what the front wheels are doing even when you don't need to know. I just felt within about 5 seconds of starting to drive that car that I was it. Simple as that. I think that's also why I don't care for turbo engines - their response is just less intuitively knowable somehow.
It is just a theory but it explains a lot of things I've experienced:
1) Mid-engined Porsches taking a lot less time to drive well than 911s (if you were a four-wheeled superbeing, you'd have your heavy bits in the middle, right?). The 911 has always felt like an odd sort of supersuit, but a mind-bendingly awesome one once you get the hang of it.
2) The DSC module being the single best thing you can add to a car (the increase in road feel, almost to hydraulic-steer levels).
3) My deranged need for a multifunction steering wheel (Unless I'm really going for it, music is a big part of my driving experience, and with the MF wheel I feel I'm turning the volume up and down kind of just by thinking about it, rather than having to break contact with my control interface (steering wheel)).
4) Not caring about Carplay or other 'connectivity'. It's just not part it for me - something that takes me away from the car rather than bringing me further into it.
Does this make sense to anyone? Are the things we love about these cars the things that make them better extensions of our bodies?
Thanks for reading!
Spiegel is a behavioural psychologist, and the book is translated from German. It's kind of extraordinary - an advanced riding guide (it's bike-centric, but also talks about cars, and a lot of what he says applies to both) but it comes from the perspective of the evolution of the human brain, and how we interact with the physical world.
The book's main theory is that elite riders and drivers use their vehicles not as pieces of equipment but rather in the manner of highly advanced prosthetic limbs. The example he gives is of running a pointer down a tiled wall. Even with our eyes closed, we could easily tell where each tile started and stopped, and we experience the contact - what Spiegel calls the interface - between ourselves and the tiled wall at the end of the pointer. The pointer has become like a part of our body - a prosthesis.
Spiegel argues that elite riders and drivers experience the contact patch of each tyre in the same way as a normal person experiences that pointer - they do not ride the bike; they become part of it and have as much intuitive sense of grip as we would walking barefoot down a steep hill (indeed the sole of a shoe is another good prosthesis example - we experience the shoe's grip simply as our own). The theory I want to present to you is that a lot of what we talk about as 'driver-focussed' or 'pure' - feelsome steering, crisp throttle response, sensibly servoed brakes etc - are in fact things that allow us more easily to become a part of the car in the sense that Spiegel describes.
I got thinking about this when I drove my friend's new-to-him 987.2 Cayman S (Tom I know you read this stuff so post some pictures already!). The steering feel of that car was definitely better than my 981, not in terms of cornering so much, but just that feeling of trailing one's fingers down the tarmac and knowing exactly what the front wheels are doing even when you don't need to know. I just felt within about 5 seconds of starting to drive that car that I was it. Simple as that. I think that's also why I don't care for turbo engines - their response is just less intuitively knowable somehow.
It is just a theory but it explains a lot of things I've experienced:
1) Mid-engined Porsches taking a lot less time to drive well than 911s (if you were a four-wheeled superbeing, you'd have your heavy bits in the middle, right?). The 911 has always felt like an odd sort of supersuit, but a mind-bendingly awesome one once you get the hang of it.
2) The DSC module being the single best thing you can add to a car (the increase in road feel, almost to hydraulic-steer levels).
3) My deranged need for a multifunction steering wheel (Unless I'm really going for it, music is a big part of my driving experience, and with the MF wheel I feel I'm turning the volume up and down kind of just by thinking about it, rather than having to break contact with my control interface (steering wheel)).
4) Not caring about Carplay or other 'connectivity'. It's just not part it for me - something that takes me away from the car rather than bringing me further into it.
Does this make sense to anyone? Are the things we love about these cars the things that make them better extensions of our bodies?
Thanks for reading!
02-02-2017, 08:13 PM
#2
Racer
MagicRat I come from a M/C racing back round and this sums it up pretty well for me as well. The aspects of driver focus like Keith Code teaches in his road racing school the $10 analogy (look it up). Sort of a mind and body. I know most on this board probably see it differently, especially the MF wheel. I agree with your 4 bullet points.
02-02-2017, 09:34 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
MagicRat, great writeup and thanks for sharing. Yes and yes. I'm not experienced on the track but used to race motocross as a kid and can completely appreciate what you're theorizing above. And in large part I think this is why people are going nuts for the 911R.
You write "...that feeling of trailing one's fingers down the tarmac and knowing exactly what the front wheels are doing even when you don't need to know. I just felt within about 5 seconds of starting to drive that car that I was it. Simple as that. I think that's also why I don't care for turbo engines - their response is just less intuitively knowable somehow."
This part really resonates with me because I long for steering feel that I'm not getting with my 991 GTS. (Nor did I really feel it with the 991 GT3.) Hoping the 991.2 GT3 brings a similar steering rack as 911R because it's described to be just about perfect. Older BMWs were more connected to the road just like older Porsches. Never driven a 991 GT3RS but speculate that it's closer to this connected experience, and this is what makes it so special.
And I came from a heavily boosted car that hit you with a tidal wave of torque that felt uncontrollable. Less connected.
You write "...that feeling of trailing one's fingers down the tarmac and knowing exactly what the front wheels are doing even when you don't need to know. I just felt within about 5 seconds of starting to drive that car that I was it. Simple as that. I think that's also why I don't care for turbo engines - their response is just less intuitively knowable somehow."
This part really resonates with me because I long for steering feel that I'm not getting with my 991 GTS. (Nor did I really feel it with the 991 GT3.) Hoping the 991.2 GT3 brings a similar steering rack as 911R because it's described to be just about perfect. Older BMWs were more connected to the road just like older Porsches. Never driven a 991 GT3RS but speculate that it's closer to this connected experience, and this is what makes it so special.
And I came from a heavily boosted car that hit you with a tidal wave of torque that felt uncontrollable. Less connected.
02-02-2017, 09:38 PM
#4
Banned
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This kind of reminds me of a story I heard years ago. I think it was about Hurley Haywood, and teaching his "students".
He'd put a quarter at a corner's apex. And tell his student drivers to put 1/2 a tire over the quarter. No more. No less.
When they got good at it, he'd ask them, "now tell me if it was heads or tails!"
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
He'd put a quarter at a corner's apex. And tell his student drivers to put 1/2 a tire over the quarter. No more. No less.
When they got good at it, he'd ask them, "now tell me if it was heads or tails!"
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
02-02-2017, 10:38 PM
#5
Banned
If you call RWS, torque vectoring and mid-engine design advancement in driver feel. Than I truly feel bad for your generation. These are advancements that make the numbers go upward and sell vehicles. A true connection to a vehicle entails noise, steering feedback, static wheel slippage, a small package, light weight analog experience and predicable limits. These new cars are nothing short of a numbing ride in a simulated and overly engineered product.
Sure they post the good numbers but the horse and rider experience is totally lost in the attempt to stay ahead of the competition. I don't see this as progression but as an attempt to post unsurpassed mechanically enhanced numbers through technology. leaves the driver out of the equation for much of it.
Please, if you want to be poetic you should look at cars from the previous era.
Sure they post the good numbers but the horse and rider experience is totally lost in the attempt to stay ahead of the competition. I don't see this as progression but as an attempt to post unsurpassed mechanically enhanced numbers through technology. leaves the driver out of the equation for much of it.
Please, if you want to be poetic you should look at cars from the previous era.
02-03-2017, 04:16 AM
#6
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
MagicRat, great writeup and thanks for sharing. Yes and yes. I'm not experienced on the track but used to race motocross as a kid and can completely appreciate what you're theorizing above. And in large part I think this is why people are going nuts for the 911R.
You write "...that feeling of trailing one's fingers down the tarmac and knowing exactly what the front wheels are doing even when you don't need to know. I just felt within about 5 seconds of starting to drive that car that I was it. Simple as that. I think that's also why I don't care for turbo engines - their response is just less intuitively knowable somehow."
This part really resonates with me because I long for steering feel that I'm not getting with my 991 GTS. (Nor did I really feel it with the 991 GT3.) Hoping the 991.2 GT3 brings a similar steering rack as 911R because it's described to be just about perfect. Older BMWs were more connected to the road just like older Porsches. Never driven a 991 GT3RS but speculate that it's closer to this connected experience, and this is what makes it so special.
And I came from a heavily boosted car that hit you with a tidal wave of torque that felt uncontrollable. Less connected.
You write "...that feeling of trailing one's fingers down the tarmac and knowing exactly what the front wheels are doing even when you don't need to know. I just felt within about 5 seconds of starting to drive that car that I was it. Simple as that. I think that's also why I don't care for turbo engines - their response is just less intuitively knowable somehow."
This part really resonates with me because I long for steering feel that I'm not getting with my 991 GTS. (Nor did I really feel it with the 991 GT3.) Hoping the 991.2 GT3 brings a similar steering rack as 911R because it's described to be just about perfect. Older BMWs were more connected to the road just like older Porsches. Never driven a 991 GT3RS but speculate that it's closer to this connected experience, and this is what makes it so special.
And I came from a heavily boosted car that hit you with a tidal wave of torque that felt uncontrollable. Less connected.
And I'm going to partially disagree with Jimbo. I think these new features *can* work to make cars more intuitive, or at least faster without becoming less intuitive - they just often don't. On all the cars I've driven with RWS for example, it feels to me completely transparent. The car just feels as it 'should' feel, only more nimble/stable. We're all different of course and YMMV.
Last edited by MagicRat; 02-03-2017 at 04:45 AM.
02-03-2017, 12:45 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
Considered DSC but don't want to put any more money into this car because I'm going to try for a new GT3 allocation. Just dumped a fortune on paint correction, ceramic pro and xpel. In retrospect I should've spent this money on performance mods like DSC. I have a short shift kit that still needs to be installed.
Jimbo, your feedback is appreciated, and does not fall on deaf ears. I'll make it a point to drive more older models. Perhaps I should be going backwards, and not trying to get the latest and greatest. Problem is that I'm a technology junkie! Greedy and want the best of both worlds.
And although I haven't driven the 911R, from everything that I've read about it Porsche has succeeded in making a modern driver's car with that "horse and rider" appeal you speak of above.
Only time will tell if the new GT3 can deliver the goods. It may not be as connected as older models but it could strike the right balance of old and new.
Jimbo, your feedback is appreciated, and does not fall on deaf ears. I'll make it a point to drive more older models. Perhaps I should be going backwards, and not trying to get the latest and greatest. Problem is that I'm a technology junkie! Greedy and want the best of both worlds.
And although I haven't driven the 911R, from everything that I've read about it Porsche has succeeded in making a modern driver's car with that "horse and rider" appeal you speak of above.
Only time will tell if the new GT3 can deliver the goods. It may not be as connected as older models but it could strike the right balance of old and new.
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02-03-2017, 12:52 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
This kind of reminds me of a story I heard years ago. I think it was about Hurley Haywood, and teaching his "students".
He'd put a quarter at a corner's apex. And tell his student drivers to put 1/2 a tire over the quarter. No more. No less.
When they got good at it, he'd ask them, "now tell me if it was heads or tails!"
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
He'd put a quarter at a corner's apex. And tell his student drivers to put 1/2 a tire over the quarter. No more. No less.
When they got good at it, he'd ask them, "now tell me if it was heads or tails!"
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
02-03-2017, 02:01 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
This is my biggest complaint about my car and the MT7. For the first time in over 37 years of driving MT cars I actually have to THINK about what gear I am shifting into or out of. It just doesn't feel natural and intuitive to me. It's getting better with time but I am 100% convinced I could jump into a 911R or GT4 with a MT6 and instantly feel comfortable.
02-03-2017, 04:41 PM
#12
Banned
And I'm going to partially disagree with Jimbo. I think these new features *can* work to make cars more intuitive, or at least faster without becoming less intuitive - they just often don't. On all the cars I've driven with RWS for example, it feels to me completely transparent. The car just feels as it 'should' feel, only more nimble/stable. We're all different of course and YMMV.
I believe porsche went in a slightly wrong direction. The base vehicle should have bin offered with a mechanical lsd. The choice would have bin simple for me. 991 chassis development was a great move forward but they went and ruined it by not offering an analog experience. The formula was simple. Mechanical LSD without the torque vectoring and a nice 6speed transmission. The new 7 speed is pitifully.
Unfortunately now that all models are FI and no sign of a change is in the horizon. That only leaves one option for me. Going back in time!
02-03-2017, 09:24 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
It is just a theory but it explains a lot of things I've experienced:
1) Mid-engined Porsches taking a lot less time to drive well than 911s (if you were a four-wheeled superbeing, you'd have your heavy bits in the middle, right?). The 911 has always felt like an odd sort of supersuit, but a mind-bendingly awesome one once you get the hang of it.
2) The DSC module being the single best thing you can add to a car (the increase in road feel, almost to hydraulic-steer levels).
3) My deranged need for a multifunction steering wheel (Unless I'm really going for it, music is a big part of my driving experience, and with the MF wheel I feel I'm turning the volume up and down kind of just by thinking about it, rather than having to break contact with my control interface (steering wheel)).
4) Not caring about Carplay or other 'connectivity'. It's just not part it for me - something that takes me away from the car rather than bringing me further into it.
Does this make sense to anyone? Are the things we love about these cars the things that make them better extensions of our bodies?
Thanks for reading!
1) Mid-engined Porsches taking a lot less time to drive well than 911s (if you were a four-wheeled superbeing, you'd have your heavy bits in the middle, right?). The 911 has always felt like an odd sort of supersuit, but a mind-bendingly awesome one once you get the hang of it.
2) The DSC module being the single best thing you can add to a car (the increase in road feel, almost to hydraulic-steer levels).
3) My deranged need for a multifunction steering wheel (Unless I'm really going for it, music is a big part of my driving experience, and with the MF wheel I feel I'm turning the volume up and down kind of just by thinking about it, rather than having to break contact with my control interface (steering wheel)).
4) Not caring about Carplay or other 'connectivity'. It's just not part it for me - something that takes me away from the car rather than bringing me further into it.
Does this make sense to anyone? Are the things we love about these cars the things that make them better extensions of our bodies?
Thanks for reading!