gearboxtrouble

I'm a new member on these forums who's looking for advice into buying my first Porsche. I've owned BMW M3/4s all my life and was recently bitten by the 911 bug after doing the 2 day Porsche Driving School at Barber Motorsports Park. Once you learn how to use the traction out of a corner, front engined cars feel so much less capable on a track.

I'm being opportunistic and looking at used/cpo Carrera S and GTS cars with no real budget in mind or deadline to meet. I intend to keep my M4 as a daily driver. I recently found a nice looking 2016 Carrera GTS at what seems like a fair price and had a few questions I'd appreciate some opinions/input on.

- The last (and only owner) of this particular car put nearly 10000 miles on it in a little under 10 months. Its not a Porsche dealership so its not cpo. How reliable are these cars generally, particularly if break in was skipped? I intend to keep it for a long time.

- The rear tires are pretty worn at 10000 miles. Does this indicate the car was trashed early or would this be normal with a NA 911? (I'd expect the turbos to be brutal on the tires).

- How's depreciation on these things? The car in question stickered in the high 130s and is on sale in the low 110s. Should one expect $10k a year going forward or will being the last of the NA non GT cars be a help?

The dealership wont allow an off site PPI (they say its still under warranty anyway) and I'm in two minds over waiting on the 991.2 GTS and paying 30% extra to get a (likely) faster car specced exactly as I want it or just going for it with this one and spending the savings on something else. If I was more reassured about how the car had been treated in its first year I'd probably go for it.

Thank you for your feedback and advice in advance.

GrantG

I would be a little suspicious of a dealer that wouldn't allow a 3rd party PPI. Worst case scenario - the engine was badly over-revved (assuming manual gearbox) and the engine warranty could be forfeited in the case of a failure. You would need a Porsche tool to read the over-rev history of the car (not usually possessed by a non-Porsche dealer).

if the car is PDK, this particular concern would not apply, but I'd still feel better having a Porsche dealer or good independent check the car before writing a 6-figure check.

Otherwise, these cars are very reliable (but not perfect) and the depreciation should be better than most Porsche models.

10k miles for new tires is entirely normal (a car that gets tracked or aggressively driven in the mountains will have its tires last far shorter than that)

gearboxtrouble

Thanks. That makes sense. Its a PDK car so I doubt there was an over rev. They did let me plug in my OBD2 scanner and check diagnostics but that's pretty much pointless because codes can be cleared. I'll probably make any progress contingent on a 3rd party PPI.

The 10000 miles in 10 months does bother me. I get that these cars are meant to be driven but that seems pretty extreme even down here in Houston. I won't hand over a 6 figure check without a PPI.

Archimedes

Mileage not a big deal, rear tire wear normal (if original tires), but no PPI would be a non starter for me particularly if it's a manual. And $110k for a $130k car with 10k miles on it already is Crackhead's List pricing.

Mumbles

I would expect you to get a "much" better deal at this time of year. A PPI at your local P dealer will set your mind at rest including a paint depth meter. Not sure why the dealership wont allow an off site PPI. What they gotta lose ?? or what do they know about the car ?? possible paint repairs knows.

Bottom line its a 100k + car.....stand your ground

NoGaBiker

As long as the miles are baked into the price, I wouldn't worry in the least about 10k miles. I'm about 500 shy of that right now on my April 2015 delivery GTS and I think the car is in outstanding condition; whether those miles had been driven over the 20 months I've had mine, or over the 10 months the PO had yours, I don't see how that would matter.

If there is ANY tread left on your rears at 10,000 miles, it was not driven hard. Mine were toast at 7800. Just a good excuse to get rid of the bricks and switch to MPSS.

And that's been the case with every Porsche I've owned, including Turbos, Carreras, and a Boxster. In fact, here's a picture of some 265 Pilot Sport 2s on the back of the 04 Boxster, with it's measley 264hp. This was taken the day I hit 10,000 miles (tires were back-ordered at that time and I was waiting for a set.) This is with zero track miles on them.

Archimedes

BTW, if you look around you can find a bunch of new 2016 991.1s being discounted $17-20k. The price on a used car, with 10k miles and shot tires should be lower.

gearboxtrouble

Wow, makes my M4 seem easy on the tires (its not).

pitt911

don't buy it without ppi, also the porsche dealer that does ppi will sell you cpo warranty for under 3 k assuming you replace tires and every thing checks out ok .
miles don't matter as much, but having said that, 911 in general have less mileage per year than your average car, so this is a little over and should be reflected better in price
by the way i had e92 and f80 m3 and this is completely a different league

seattle_sun

If it was a daily driver, 1 K /month is pretty normal. That's what I put on my car and I don't really have that big of a commute.

NoGaBiker

I don't know anything about the pricing (that's a moving target and since I'm not in the market I don't follow it). But shouldn't we be telling gearboxtrouble and everyone else who asks about used pricing, that it's a great price and he should jump on it? Hear me out.

If you advise prospective new owners to hammer away and get 991s for rock bottom prices, you effectively contribute to driving the price down on all of them, if we're to believe the market is properly elastic. So by helping one person, you are harming yourself and everyone else on this board who already has a 991. It's like the people who so graciously stop and wave five cars out in front of them in a line of traffic at the light -- what about the five people behind them who now aren't getting through the light because of Mr. Nice Guy's generosity with THEIR time?

So Geabox, how bout taking one for the team? Pay what they're asking. Then write into the Market Reports column in Excellence Magazine and they'll publish what you paid and that will go into the general market metrics, and we'll all benefit. Best of all, YOU will also be the recipient of your own largesse when you get ready to sell, meaning your selfless act won't even cost you anything!

FiveRiversGTS

I would definitely get a PPI.
Without that it's a no go for me.

The fact that they won't allow it seems suspect?

In terms of mileage, I drove 14,500 miles in 17 months on my first S and now have 8,500 miles on my GTS in less than six months. This is only leisure driving, no commuting. So mileage is not an issue.

If you plan to keep it long term and need the extra miles/time for warranty perhaps a CPO would suit you better. Or even a new car 2016 at this time of year should be 20% off.

Depreciation would probably be around 25% the first year then 10% each year.

Rambler_13

There are cpo GTSs for sale in that range or less if you're willing to have shipped.

My 15 gts cpo was driven 11k in less than a year by the original owner. I wasn't worried about it then or now. Rear tires were replaced around 7k which seemed early to me. Perhaps it was tracked a couple times in which case so be it, it's still a cpo.

Macster

Any problems arising from an improper break in often don't show up until some time later. A drive it like you stole it break in can have the engine making max power sooner but max power then drops off as the style of break in makes itself known.

Oil consumption can be high, too.

Do you know the break in was skipped?

10K miles per year is not that much, although I grant it is more than a number of owners do per year.

But my 2002 Boxster has around 20K miles average per year and even with over 306K miles still runs great. My 2003 Turbo has just over 150K miles and runs great.

A Turbo can be brutal on rear tires in the hands of an aggressive driver. An aggressive driver can be brutal on all 4 tires.

My 2003 Turbo gets around 20K miles out of its rear tires and double that from the fronts. About the same tire life as my Boxster.

While my Turbo can break the rear tires loose in low gear with ease and I can kick the rear end out no problem in a turn, the concern about buying expensive tires way too often stops me from this kind of behavior. Well, that and the risk of a ticket or worse.

If the owner was an aggressive driver that can account for the worn out tires. A poor alignment can too, especially if you tell me the rear tires are worn more heavily on the inside edges.

Oh, one sign of a car driven aggressively at least in one without a LSD is if the right rear tire is worn more than the left rear tire. With no LSD during a right hand turn -- of which many more are made -- at least in the USA -- if the driver has a heavy right foot the inside rear tire spins since it is less loaded than the outside rear tire.

Depreciation is a toughie. General (very general) rule of thumb is a new car depreciates 10% from the dealer's cost the minute the car is driven off the lot.

Then every year after that when the next/new year models arrive the car depreciates another 10%. This curve flattens out after 3 or 4 years unless the car (model) proves to be a POS.

My only real experience with Turbo depreciation, 996 Turbo depreciation FWIW, is in June 2009 I paid $57.7K (dealer's asking price was $61.9K) for a 10K mile 2003 Turbo in pristine condition and with a 2 year, 100K mile CPO warranty for a car that originally stickered for $120K.

If the dealer won't let you PPI the car off the dealer's site and if you want/must have a PPI time to walk.

Have you checked the car out? My advice is visit the car cold. Make sure the A/C is off (you test this later). Be sure when you turn on the key all the warning lights, including the CEL, come on then go off when the engine starts to run. Cold start the engine and listen to it idle and warm up as you walk around the car.

Have the seller take you on a 15 mile test ride. The route should give the seller a chance to demo the car like you intend to drive it.

With a PDK (or Tip) I recommend while the transmission is cold doing a K-turn. You want to verify the transmission can handle fairly rapid changes in gear directions with no signs of drama.

Back at the starting point switch seats and drive the car over the same route driving the car the same way.

At some point do a 2nd K-turn this time with the transmission up to temperature.

The test ride/drive has the engine running about an hour and gives the DME time to run through the readiness monitor tests 2 times (my Porsche tech buddies tell me). If the CEL stays dark -- and the engine doesn't manifest any untoward behavior during the test ride/drive sessions -- this is a good sign all is right with the world with the engine.

After all the above if you still like the car do a thorough used car checkout. Check everything.

Then insist the car get lifted in the air and you get a chance to look over the underside of the car. (Be sure you bring a good flashlight!) You want to look at every gasket, seal (including all transmission seals, and not just the big ones and both diffs and their seals), o-ring, hose fitting, hydraulic line, and dust boot. Pay attention to the CV boots both at the rear and front axles and the dust boots one at each end of the rack. The dealer tech may have to remove some panels for you to get a good view of the tranny/diff and rack seals but given how much money is at stake this shouldn't be a problem. If the dealer balks then bring up the off site PPI which should include this level of inspection.

Couple of things I like to finish with: Price is not fact only an opinion.

If you find something with this car that has you thinking you probably don't want the car don't be afraid to walk away. There is always another car.

Good luck and happy shopping!

crunch527

Get the PPI...I was almost ready to buy a 1988 911 in April...owner was a friend...swore the car was ready for a cross country trip...I took it in for a PPI and cylinder leak down test showed #1 cylinder only holding 38% volume...should have been holding 95% or more...no sale...I avoided a $20K+ mistake...

just saying...