I hate PDK! I love PDK! Wait. I hate it. No I love it!
06-14-2016, 08:21 PM
#76
Drifting
That's precisely why I prefer a system that lets me bang into the rev limiter. After all, the rev limiter is there to save the engine and remind you that you've gone too far. For me, there are two reasons why I'd hate to have PDK shift for me:
1. On a track, there is a reason why drivers like having the ability to lock in a gear. As described by Julian below, there are times when an upshift can be absolutely unsettling and scary (as I've experienced in some automatic cars). The ability to stay locked into 3rd/4th/5th when pushing through the RPM range gives you the ability to push the car as far as it can go without thinking twice about an upshift. When you're ready, you can pull the paddle. If I wanted the transmission to shift for me, I'd leave it in Sport + Auto mode without going into PDK's manual mode.
2. Pure pleasure. Knowing that I myself can shift at the precise moment before I hit the rev limiter is a joy. I don't think I've ever redlined either of my two 911s over the past 4 or 5 years, but knowing that I can get up to *just* below the limiter makes me happy. Purely subjective and my preference. If I knew that PDK would shift for me anyway, I wouldn't put much effort into thinking/caring about the rev limiter/redline. Hence, auto mode.
Yup, you beat me to it. That's definitely part of it. I don't remember which AMG model we tore up at Willow Springs back in 2011, but it would upshift in manual mode a good 3-400rpm before redline. Quite a scary feeling when you're carrying speed into turn 9 before the straight.
1. On a track, there is a reason why drivers like having the ability to lock in a gear. As described by Julian below, there are times when an upshift can be absolutely unsettling and scary (as I've experienced in some automatic cars). The ability to stay locked into 3rd/4th/5th when pushing through the RPM range gives you the ability to push the car as far as it can go without thinking twice about an upshift. When you're ready, you can pull the paddle. If I wanted the transmission to shift for me, I'd leave it in Sport + Auto mode without going into PDK's manual mode.
2. Pure pleasure. Knowing that I myself can shift at the precise moment before I hit the rev limiter is a joy. I don't think I've ever redlined either of my two 911s over the past 4 or 5 years, but knowing that I can get up to *just* below the limiter makes me happy. Purely subjective and my preference. If I knew that PDK would shift for me anyway, I wouldn't put much effort into thinking/caring about the rev limiter/redline. Hence, auto mode.
Yup, you beat me to it. That's definitely part of it. I don't remember which AMG model we tore up at Willow Springs back in 2011, but it would upshift in manual mode a good 3-400rpm before redline. Quite a scary feeling when you're carrying speed into turn 9 before the straight.
1) As I and now several other people have said several times, as long as you are in the Sport Chrono mode that you're supposed to be in when driving in such a way that bumping the rev limiter is even an issue (Sport+), this is a moot conversation -- PDK will let you slam, bump, massage, or otherwise feel your way along the rev limiter exactly like a manual does. No difference. I don't know how it behaves in Sport or Normal at rev limit, because I never drive in those modes. Somebody who does and cares, feel free to weigh in on that. But again, those are not the modes I would choose in any sort of serious driving situation, even if I did use them for around town commuting, etc.
2) We're just going to have to disagree (no need to "agree to disagree," we can just "disagree" in the conventional sense
) on whether it is more upsetting to a car's stability in a power-on cornering situation to have the "electronic nannies" decide to cut power to your engine but leave you in the same gear, or decide to leave you at full power but shift to a higher gear. In my considerable experience, suddenly and unexpectedly losing power (the equivalent of completely letting off the throttle and the resultant weight transfer of a car that was accelerating hard and is now effectively coasting) is quite a bit more upsetting to both the car and my psyche than unexpectedly experiencing a 100 millisecond upshift followed by full throttle being resumed. Both are less than optimal. Banging the limiter is much more so for me.3) Lest I come across as an apologist for PDK per se, I think my position on that has been stated clearly in many of these back-and-forths. I am far from such. But, in the interest of accuracy, I hate to see the poor PDK get mischaracterized as being more intrusive than it is.
4) And how intrusive is it? Very little, in my experience. Again in Sport+ mode.
A) as detailed above, it is never intrusive on the top end. It simply doesn't care if you want to nip at the limiter.
B) it DOES care if you are in 4th at 7800rpms and try to downshift to third because you grabbed the wrong paddle (equivalent to the 4-1 downshift in manual when you meant 4-3). As such, it won't let you. That doesn't happen to me often, but it has happened at least once, and I was damn glad it stepped in and stopped me. To each his own, but that one is a welcomed intrusion as far as I'm concerned.
C) Kick-down. I have engaged that before on purpose, just to see what happened. But because I know how it works I've never engaged it by accident. So my foot just knows where the detent is, I guess, because when I want full throttle I get full throttle, not the downshift+full-throttle that is the subject of some complaints. Surely the well-trained feet of a manual driver could be taught this simple skill, which is much easier than heel-and-tow shifting or trail braking, no?
Bottom line (you thought I'd never get there!): PDK can be reasonably maligned for not providing as much mechanical involvement as 7M+clutch. A person either wants that or not. I am sitting in a parking lot eating dinner right now in my Jeep Rubicon 6M, one of my two manuals currently owned. Had to order it because, believe it or not, manual Wranglers are getting about as scarce as manual 911s. I love the simple feeling of slipping the long wobbly gear lever into gear, feeling the cogs and synchros engage, releasing the clutch smoothly and feeling it take-up while I'm feeding power with my right foot. It's fun, even though it is a bit of a liability for me in the big rocks of southeastern Utah and Colorado. But I'm okay with that because, dammit, it just feels fun.
So I'll entertain that argument in a 911 all day long. But I'm having trouble with the idea that PDK robs you of control of your gear selection. Just not seeing it.
Cheers!
06-14-2016, 08:29 PM
#77
I would not expect PDK to behave like a true racing transmission, because it is not. I would also not expect the highest amount gear selection control, because the PDK software is designed for the street, for comfort, for emissions, and for falsely enticing people to feel as if they are driving a sequential transmission (nothing further from the truth).
PDK is numbing. Option it if you like your comfort, don't if you like control. Simple. Can't necessarily and efficiently have both.
PDK-S (GT3 and RS) is a bit different, however, at the limit it will shift like the normal PDK.
PDK is numbing. Option it if you like your comfort, don't if you like control. Simple. Can't necessarily and efficiently have both.
PDK-S (GT3 and RS) is a bit different, however, at the limit it will shift like the normal PDK.
06-14-2016, 09:02 PM
#78
If that is true, then ZF and Porsche better get their heads together and start on some software modifications.
06-14-2016, 09:31 PM
#79
We have two issues here; the first may be the result of inexperience with PDK for you -- don't know your history.
1) As I and now several other people have said several times, as long as you are in the Sport Chrono mode that you're supposed to be in when driving in such a way that bumping the rev limiter is even an issue (Sport+), this is a moot conversation -- PDK will let you slam, bump, massage, or otherwise feel your way along the rev limiter exactly like a manual does. No difference. I don't know how it behaves in Sport or Normal at rev limit, because I never drive in those modes. Somebody who does and cares, feel free to weigh in on that. But again, those are not the modes I would choose in any sort of serious driving situation, even if I did use them for around town commuting, etc.
1) As I and now several other people have said several times, as long as you are in the Sport Chrono mode that you're supposed to be in when driving in such a way that bumping the rev limiter is even an issue (Sport+), this is a moot conversation -- PDK will let you slam, bump, massage, or otherwise feel your way along the rev limiter exactly like a manual does. No difference. I don't know how it behaves in Sport or Normal at rev limit, because I never drive in those modes. Somebody who does and cares, feel free to weigh in on that. But again, those are not the modes I would choose in any sort of serious driving situation, even if I did use them for around town commuting, etc.
2) We're just going to have to disagree (no need to "agree to disagree," we can just "disagree" in the conventional sense ) on whether it is more upsetting to a car's stability in a power-on cornering situation to have the "electronic nannies" decide to cut power to your engine but leave you in the same gear, or decide to leave you at full power but shift to a higher gear. In my considerable experience, suddenly and unexpectedly losing power (the equivalent of completely letting off the throttle and the resultant weight transfer of a car that was accelerating hard and is now effectively coasting) is quite a bit more upsetting to both the car and my psyche than unexpectedly experiencing a 100 millisecond upshift followed by full throttle being resumed. Both are less than optimal. Banging the limiter is much more so for me.
) on whether it is more upsetting to a car's stability in a power-on cornering situation to have the "electronic nannies" decide to cut power to your engine but leave you in the same gear, or decide to leave you at full power but shift to a higher gear. In my considerable experience, suddenly and unexpectedly losing power (the equivalent of completely letting off the throttle and the resultant weight transfer of a car that was accelerating hard and is now effectively coasting) is quite a bit more upsetting to both the car and my psyche than unexpectedly experiencing a 100 millisecond upshift followed by full throttle being resumed. Both are less than optimal. Banging the limiter is much more so for me.
I think this can happen in different circumstances which may result in a different situation. For example, I'm entering the apex of a corner and I'd like to keep the car locked in 3rd gear at ~7,400rpm because I *KNOW* that my turn entry speed can be achieved at 7,400rpm. In a case like this where I'd feather the throttle a few times mid-corner, I would absolutely, positively NOT want the car to automatically shift into 4th gear which would upset the load and throw me off as a result of letting off the throttle to avoid gaining speed. You also need to keep in mind that letting off the throttle as a result, then nailing the throttle again, would theoretically force the car to downshift back into 3rd for a split second and then shift again into 4th. Not ideal at all (as opposed to banging the limiter once or twice IF I even get that close) when you're relying on engine braking.
3) Lest I come across as an apologist for PDK per se, I think my position on that has been stated clearly in many of these back-and-forths. I am far from such. But, in the interest of accuracy, I hate to see the poor PDK get mischaracterized as being more intrusive than it is.
B) it DOES care if you are in 4th at 7800rpms and try to downshift to third because you grabbed the wrong paddle (equivalent to the 4-1 downshift in manual when you meant 4-3). As such, it won't let you. That doesn't happen to me often, but it has happened at least once, and I was damn glad it stepped in and stopped me. To each his own, but that one is a welcomed intrusion as far as I'm concerned.
C) Kick-down. I have engaged that before on purpose, just to see what happened. But because I know how it works I've never engaged it by accident. So my foot just knows where the detent is, I guess, because when I want full throttle I get full throttle, not the downshift+full-throttle that is the subject of some complaints. Surely the well-trained feet of a manual driver could be taught this simple skill, which is much easier than heel-and-tow shifting or trail braking, no?
Bottom line (you thought I'd never get there!): PDK can be reasonably maligned for not providing as much mechanical involvement as 7M+clutch. A person either wants that or not. I am sitting in a parking lot eating dinner right now in my Jeep Rubicon 6M, one of my two manuals currently owned. Had to order it because, believe it or not, manual Wranglers are getting about as scarce as manual 911s. I love the simple feeling of slipping the long wobbly gear lever into gear, feeling the cogs and synchros engage, releasing the clutch smoothly and feeling it take-up while I'm feeding power with my right foot. It's fun, even though it is a bit of a liability for me in the big rocks of southeastern Utah and Colorado. But I'm okay with that because, dammit, it just feels fun.
But, to your main point, I can totally understand your reasons and I *think* you understand mine. It's really a matter of pure preference, which is why I'm always careful to argue only against objective reasons that may affect the driving experience (our downshift talk, for example).
Don't mind any typos; I'm also typing this on mobile.
06-14-2016, 10:18 PM
#80
Drifting
Thanks for the kind words, Christo, but you know ratings on this thread will tank if we don't step it up a notch, you anti-technology, progressophobic Luddite *******.
06-14-2016, 10:57 PM
#81
Banned
Recently read a review on the 911r vs GT3 RS. Where it was stated that the manual puts down more horse power due to the MT. Journalist stated that the PDK was slower because of added friction in the gearing. It was a general statement with no technical data but the 911 R was clearly the faster of the two.
06-14-2016, 11:10 PM
#82
Rennlist Member
I dug up an older thread on the subject, with some photos:
https://rennlist.com/forums/991/7165...l#post11395823
Nobody ever posted a definitive solution, but my guess is that a Sprint Booster in conjunction with a 6mm obstacle of some kind to limit the pedal travel would be the best way to make the car 'forget' the kickdown switch is there.
Some may not be aware that this feature already exists. Press the pedal down and release it very quickly, and the PDK controller will put you in the lowest available gear for your current speed. I'm not sure how far the pedal has to be depressed before the controller will recognize it, but a light tap won't do.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991/7165...l#post11395823
Nobody ever posted a definitive solution, but my guess is that a Sprint Booster in conjunction with a 6mm obstacle of some kind to limit the pedal travel would be the best way to make the car 'forget' the kickdown switch is there.
But, I'd rather have a feature that gets rid of the "button" altogether and implements an M Division-style system where a longer pull of the left shift pedal immediately puts you in the lowest possible gear for mad warp speed acceleration.
06-15-2016, 03:39 AM
#83
Some may not be aware that this feature already exists. Press the pedal down and release it very quickly, and the PDK controller will put you in the lowest available gear for your current speed. I'm not sure how far the pedal has to be depressed before the controller will recognize it, but a light tap won't do.
NoGaBiker's point should be repeated, though. All of these suggestions are my personal "wants," and Porsche obviously caters to the more mainstream, non-psychotic driver that doesn't care about these talks.
06-15-2016, 04:53 PM
#84
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You're right, old fart. I need to continue bashing unskilled, nanny-loving hipsters like you who can't drive their own ****ing cars without a supercomputer controlling everything.
Are we talking about the throttle pedal? If so, then yes, we're aware of the downshift kickdown feature that you're talking about. I was suggesting that the kickdown button is completely nixed and that Porsche consider BMW M's solution, so that no one has to worry about mashing the pedal too far during track sessions.
NoGaBiker's point should be repeated, though. All of these suggestions are my personal "wants," and Porsche obviously caters to the more mainstream, non-psychotic driver that doesn't care about these talks.
Are we talking about the throttle pedal? If so, then yes, we're aware of the downshift kickdown feature that you're talking about. I was suggesting that the kickdown button is completely nixed and that Porsche consider BMW M's solution, so that no one has to worry about mashing the pedal too far during track sessions.
NoGaBiker's point should be repeated, though. All of these suggestions are my personal "wants," and Porsche obviously caters to the more mainstream, non-psychotic driver that doesn't care about these talks.
You floor the car in a higher gear, hit kickdown. Then on a left paddle (doesn't have to be a deeper press just engage the paddle) and it will downshift to lowest gear. Very similar.
I think in the 911, it does this same behavior in Normal/Sport mode w/o engaging the paddle shifter (just kick down). in S+ mode, it never tries to shift to the lowest gear, even in kickdown or kickdown + left paddle. I would think this is the ideal for track use anyways, complete control of the gear shift that doesn't damage the engine, right?
06-15-2016, 04:58 PM
#85
Rennlist Member
The M-division also has the kickdown button on the DCTs. My M3 had it. The way it worked was like this:
You floor the car in a higher gear, hit kickdown. Then on a left paddle (doesn't have to be a deeper press just engage the paddle) and it will downshift to lowest gear. Very similar.
I think in the 911, it does this same behavior in Normal/Sport mode w/o engaging the paddle shifter (just kick down). in S+ mode, it never tries to shift to the lowest gear, even in kickdown or kickdown + left paddle. I would think this is the ideal for track use anyways, complete control of the gear shift that doesn't damage the engine, right?
You floor the car in a higher gear, hit kickdown. Then on a left paddle (doesn't have to be a deeper press just engage the paddle) and it will downshift to lowest gear. Very similar.
I think in the 911, it does this same behavior in Normal/Sport mode w/o engaging the paddle shifter (just kick down). in S+ mode, it never tries to shift to the lowest gear, even in kickdown or kickdown + left paddle. I would think this is the ideal for track use anyways, complete control of the gear shift that doesn't damage the engine, right?
06-15-2016, 05:29 PM
#86
The M-division also has the kickdown button on the DCTs. My M3 had it. The way it worked was like this:
You floor the car in a higher gear, hit kickdown. Then on a left paddle (doesn't have to be a deeper press just engage the paddle) and it will downshift to lowest gear. Very similar.
I think in the 911, it does this same behavior in Normal/Sport mode w/o engaging the paddle shifter (just kick down). in S+ mode, it never tries to shift to the lowest gear, even in kickdown or kickdown + left paddle. I would think this is the ideal for track use anyways, complete control of the gear shift that doesn't damage the engine, right?
You floor the car in a higher gear, hit kickdown. Then on a left paddle (doesn't have to be a deeper press just engage the paddle) and it will downshift to lowest gear. Very similar.
I think in the 911, it does this same behavior in Normal/Sport mode w/o engaging the paddle shifter (just kick down). in S+ mode, it never tries to shift to the lowest gear, even in kickdown or kickdown + left paddle. I would think this is the ideal for track use anyways, complete control of the gear shift that doesn't damage the engine, right?
06-15-2016, 05:51 PM
#87
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Right, this is what I'm saying too. I was at the track a few weeks ago and my car did not shift down on kickdown in S+ mode. I'm wondering if software was changed since 2013 or if the GTS has different programming. Others have also indicated no downshift on kickdown in S+ as well, so I don't think I'm the only one who experienced this. I do know that in Normal it does downshift on kickdown though.
06-15-2016, 06:31 PM
#88
Rennlist Member
The fact that this stuff isn't clearly and consistently documented by Porsche is the real problem. Some people might want to drive a manual, some people might want to drive a PDK, but who wants to drive a hidden Markov model?