Why the base stereo wattage downgrade?
11-13-2015, 10:58 AM
#31
Pro
Thread Starter
Asking an audio question on a car site? Oh well.
Where to begin? Watts simply do not equate to sound quality. Not at all. For starters, even at high volume levels the vast majority of what you're hearing is 1 watt or less. One watt in a car gets you about 95 dB which is a good satisfyingly loud level for most folks. Ten watts at the same sensitivity is 105 dB, enough to cause hearing damage if done too long. But, the 235 is even more misleading, as its usually the sum of the output of who knows how many amps, which is just a truly stupid way of measuring- that works because people know next to nothing about audio.
But its not like power is irrelevant. There was a time, way back, 1970's or earlier, when even a watt or two (as currently measured) was hard to come by. Unless you had ultra-efficient horn-loaded speakers you simply weren't going to get decent sound at more than conversation-level (70 dB) output. (But, even then, if that one watt was some nice tube gear it was gonna sound great. Which is why even today people fall in love with 2 watt Single-Ended Triodes.)
Nowadays (by which I mean, for the last 30 years at least) its common and easy to make 30 to 60 or more nice, clean, musically enjoyable watts. Which is plenty. Even carmakers could do it- if they cared. Which they might- if customers would only listen. Which, unfortunately, precious few do. Listening takes time. So much easier to compare meaningless numbers.
Even so, if the numbers did make any sense (which they don't) then lets say the 991.2 is 3dB more quiet than the .1. Which since 3dB is widely held to be the smallest increment most people reliably hear (which if you're a decent listener is probably more like 1, 1.5, but that's why its "most people" not decent listeners) then if people notice any improvement at all its probably more than 3dB. But never mind. Take 3dB. Then since sonic power is logarithmic, so that each 3dB increment requires TWICE as much power, then in this case 3dB down from 235 is 117, which is less than 150. So relative to its new, more quiet interior the new base stereo is actually proportionally more powerful than before.
Except, remember, its logarithmic. The 33 watts between 117 and 150 is (no, I'm not going to do the math!) some tiny fraction of a decibel. Its nothing. Utterly meaningless. Just like this whole watts game they love to keep everyone playing.
And, let me assure you, this is only the tip of the iceberg. The more you dig into it, the less you will care about watts. (Assuming of course the stereo is intended for music, and not another item of BSD-dom.)
The only reasonable answer then is it has nothing- NOTHING!- to do with sound. Its pure marketing. And that's a whole different rabbit hole altogether.
Where to begin? Watts simply do not equate to sound quality. Not at all. For starters, even at high volume levels the vast majority of what you're hearing is 1 watt or less. One watt in a car gets you about 95 dB which is a good satisfyingly loud level for most folks. Ten watts at the same sensitivity is 105 dB, enough to cause hearing damage if done too long. But, the 235 is even more misleading, as its usually the sum of the output of who knows how many amps, which is just a truly stupid way of measuring- that works because people know next to nothing about audio.
But its not like power is irrelevant. There was a time, way back, 1970's or earlier, when even a watt or two (as currently measured) was hard to come by. Unless you had ultra-efficient horn-loaded speakers you simply weren't going to get decent sound at more than conversation-level (70 dB) output. (But, even then, if that one watt was some nice tube gear it was gonna sound great. Which is why even today people fall in love with 2 watt Single-Ended Triodes.)
Nowadays (by which I mean, for the last 30 years at least) its common and easy to make 30 to 60 or more nice, clean, musically enjoyable watts. Which is plenty. Even carmakers could do it- if they cared. Which they might- if customers would only listen. Which, unfortunately, precious few do. Listening takes time. So much easier to compare meaningless numbers.
Even so, if the numbers did make any sense (which they don't) then lets say the 991.2 is 3dB more quiet than the .1. Which since 3dB is widely held to be the smallest increment most people reliably hear (which if you're a decent listener is probably more like 1, 1.5, but that's why its "most people" not decent listeners) then if people notice any improvement at all its probably more than 3dB. But never mind. Take 3dB. Then since sonic power is logarithmic, so that each 3dB increment requires TWICE as much power, then in this case 3dB down from 235 is 117, which is less than 150. So relative to its new, more quiet interior the new base stereo is actually proportionally more powerful than before.
Except, remember, its logarithmic. The 33 watts between 117 and 150 is (no, I'm not going to do the math!) some tiny fraction of a decibel. Its nothing. Utterly meaningless. Just like this whole watts game they love to keep everyone playing.
And, let me assure you, this is only the tip of the iceberg. The more you dig into it, the less you will care about watts. (Assuming of course the stereo is intended for music, and not another item of BSD-dom.)
The only reasonable answer then is it has nothing- NOTHING!- to do with sound. Its pure marketing. And that's a whole different rabbit hole altogether.
Thank you for this awesome explanation. I had no idea.
But, I think you may have hit on something important... the 991.2 is maybe "quieter" than the 991.1. Maybe then the turbocharging is responsible for this change?
11-13-2015, 11:22 AM
#33
To the OP: I think it is an interesting question and I found the following:
on the 991.1:
The Sound Package Plus is fitted as standard. The system comprises a separate amplifier with a total output of 235 watts, seven amplifier channels and nine loudspeakers, all of which combine to create the perfect interior sound experience.
on the 991.2:
Sound Package Plus, with eight loudspeakers and a total output of 150 watts, delivers excellent sound. The amplifier integrated into PCM optimally adapts the acoustic pattern in the vehicle interior to the driver and front passenger.
--> so the main difference is that the amp is now integrated in the head unit (not sure where it sits in the 991.1) and they dropped one speaker. I think Chuck911's explanation was detailed, but he gave to much credit to the marketing people. As far as I know they will just add up the total max Watt per speaker to come to the total output power of 150 Watts or 235 Watts. Dropping 1 speaker will be the first difference, using speakers that are rated for a lower output wattage is most likely the other.
--> but as Chuck911 stated, Watts are not important to sound quality, they CAN be a good indication how the system will perform at high volumes. In general, your ears determine what sounds good, not the marketing specs.
My personal opinion: (I do run a AIFF-->optical cable--> Bel Canto DAC, Digital amp --> Joseph Audio speakers setup at home so I care about audio quality) I would not spend money on upgrading a base care stereo. The space you listen in is the biggest contributor to sound quality once you get to a decent basic setup. A car is not a good space to listen to music in. I have an old 64 GB ipod hooked up in the glove compartment that I sync with my AIFF library at the lowest possible compression and it sounds good with a base system.
on the 991.1:
The Sound Package Plus is fitted as standard. The system comprises a separate amplifier with a total output of 235 watts, seven amplifier channels and nine loudspeakers, all of which combine to create the perfect interior sound experience.
on the 991.2:
Sound Package Plus, with eight loudspeakers and a total output of 150 watts, delivers excellent sound. The amplifier integrated into PCM optimally adapts the acoustic pattern in the vehicle interior to the driver and front passenger.
--> so the main difference is that the amp is now integrated in the head unit (not sure where it sits in the 991.1) and they dropped one speaker. I think Chuck911's explanation was detailed, but he gave to much credit to the marketing people. As far as I know they will just add up the total max Watt per speaker to come to the total output power of 150 Watts or 235 Watts. Dropping 1 speaker will be the first difference, using speakers that are rated for a lower output wattage is most likely the other.
--> but as Chuck911 stated, Watts are not important to sound quality, they CAN be a good indication how the system will perform at high volumes. In general, your ears determine what sounds good, not the marketing specs.
My personal opinion: (I do run a AIFF-->optical cable--> Bel Canto DAC, Digital amp --> Joseph Audio speakers setup at home so I care about audio quality) I would not spend money on upgrading a base care stereo. The space you listen in is the biggest contributor to sound quality once you get to a decent basic setup. A car is not a good space to listen to music in. I have an old 64 GB ipod hooked up in the glove compartment that I sync with my AIFF library at the lowest possible compression and it sounds good with a base system.
11-13-2015, 11:27 AM
#34
To the OP: I think it is an interesting question and I found the following:
on the 991.1:
The Sound Package Plus is fitted as standard. The system comprises a separate amplifier with a total output of 235 watts, seven amplifier channels and nine loudspeakers, all of which combine to create the perfect interior sound experience.
on the 991.2:
Sound Package Plus, with eight loudspeakers and a total output of 150 watts, delivers excellent sound. The amplifier integrated into PCM optimally adapts the acoustic pattern in the vehicle interior to the driver and front passenger.
--> so the main difference is that the amp is now integrated in the head unit (not sure where it sits in the 991.1) and they dropped one speaker. I think Chuck911's explanation was detailed, but he gave to much credit to the marketing people. As far as I know they will just add up the total max Watt per speaker to come to the total output power of 150 Watts or 235 Watts. Dropping 1 speaker will be the first difference, using speakers that are rated for a lower output wattage is most likely the other.
--> but as Chuck911 stated, Watts are not important to sound quality, they CAN be a good indication how the system will perform at high volumes. In general, your ears determine what sounds good, not the marketing specs.
My personal opinion: (I do run a AIFF-->optical cable--> Bel Canto DAC, Digital amp --> Joseph Audio speakers setup at home so I care about audio quality) I would not spend money on upgrading a base care stereo. The space you listen in is the biggest contributor to sound quality once you get to a decent basic setup. A car is not a good space to listen to music in. I have an old 64 GB ipod hooked up in the glove compartment that I sync with my AIFF library at the lowest possible compression and it sounds good with a base system.
on the 991.1:
The Sound Package Plus is fitted as standard. The system comprises a separate amplifier with a total output of 235 watts, seven amplifier channels and nine loudspeakers, all of which combine to create the perfect interior sound experience.
on the 991.2:
Sound Package Plus, with eight loudspeakers and a total output of 150 watts, delivers excellent sound. The amplifier integrated into PCM optimally adapts the acoustic pattern in the vehicle interior to the driver and front passenger.
--> so the main difference is that the amp is now integrated in the head unit (not sure where it sits in the 991.1) and they dropped one speaker. I think Chuck911's explanation was detailed, but he gave to much credit to the marketing people. As far as I know they will just add up the total max Watt per speaker to come to the total output power of 150 Watts or 235 Watts. Dropping 1 speaker will be the first difference, using speakers that are rated for a lower output wattage is most likely the other.
--> but as Chuck911 stated, Watts are not important to sound quality, they CAN be a good indication how the system will perform at high volumes. In general, your ears determine what sounds good, not the marketing specs.
My personal opinion: (I do run a AIFF-->optical cable--> Bel Canto DAC, Digital amp --> Joseph Audio speakers setup at home so I care about audio quality) I would not spend money on upgrading a base care stereo. The space you listen in is the biggest contributor to sound quality once you get to a decent basic setup. A car is not a good space to listen to music in. I have an old 64 GB ipod hooked up in the glove compartment that I sync with my AIFF library at the lowest possible compression and it sounds good with a base system.
11-13-2015, 12:31 PM
#36
Race Director
Come resale time, upgrading to the Bose at least makes the car more attractive and a better listening experience while you own it. In the big scope of things, not that $. Look at the deprecation after 2 years, and that's the bigger concern.
On the 991.1, a few key features that most used buyers are looking for at a minimum:
Bose
14 ways
Sunroof
Sport Chrono
PSE (a huge plus too)
SPASM is up there too
On the 991.1, a few key features that most used buyers are looking for at a minimum:
Bose
14 ways
Sunroof
Sport Chrono
PSE (a huge plus too)
SPASM is up there too
11-13-2015, 12:55 PM
#37
Come resale time, upgrading to the Bose at least makes the car more attractive and a better listening experience while you own it. In the big scope of things, not that $. Look at the deprecation after 2 years, and that's the bigger concern.
On the 991.1, a few key features that most used buyers are looking for at a minimum:
Bose
14 ways
Sunroof
Sport Chrono
PSE (a huge plus too)
SPASM is up there too
On the 991.1, a few key features that most used buyers are looking for at a minimum:
Bose
14 ways
Sunroof
Sport Chrono
PSE (a huge plus too)
SPASM is up there too
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard somewhere the placement of the speakers in the 991 are not ideal for sound, even with the Burmester. For me if I put talk radio, music from the hard drive or my phone it sounds great with the base speakers and others seem to think the same thing. As Chuck said Wattage is a measure of power, not sound quality and all modern cars have plenty of power.
I think if you listen to all 3 sound systems and can tell the difference and it makes you enjoy the car more than by all means get the higher end audio. If the car speakers sounded like my smartphone I'd definitely upgrade and maybe other people have more sophisticated musical taste than me.
11-13-2015, 12:58 PM
#38
I don't believe the base radio has any subwoofer. I have that in my 991S and I seem to recall reading that it did not have one. Certainly sounds like it doesn't have one.
11-13-2015, 02:18 PM
#39
Found this on sixspeed. The OP on sixspeed has to recount the base system, 1+2+2+2+2 = 9, not 7
"The base system has 7 speakers
1. There is one 25W mid-range 80mm 4 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two 19mm 4 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash
3. There are two 100mm 4 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors
4. There are two 100mm 4 ohm mid-range speakers in the back seat (1 each side)
5. There are two 200mm 4ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
The Bose system has 12 speakers:
1. There is one 25W mid-range 80mm 4 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two 19mm 4 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash and two in the rear of the passenger seats
3. There are two 100mm 2 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors and two behind the rear tweeters.
4. There are two 220mm 1 ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
5. There is one 130mm 4 ohm Subwoofer in the dash by the steering wheel
The Burmester system has 12 speakers:
1. There is one mid-range 80mm 2 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two AMT 6 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash
3. There are two 100mm 2 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors and two behind the rear tweeters.
4. There are two 220mm 1ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
5. There is one Subwoofer in the dash by the steering wheel"
"The base system has 7 speakers
1. There is one 25W mid-range 80mm 4 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two 19mm 4 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash
3. There are two 100mm 4 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors
4. There are two 100mm 4 ohm mid-range speakers in the back seat (1 each side)
5. There are two 200mm 4ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
The Bose system has 12 speakers:
1. There is one 25W mid-range 80mm 4 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two 19mm 4 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash and two in the rear of the passenger seats
3. There are two 100mm 2 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors and two behind the rear tweeters.
4. There are two 220mm 1 ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
5. There is one 130mm 4 ohm Subwoofer in the dash by the steering wheel
The Burmester system has 12 speakers:
1. There is one mid-range 80mm 2 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two AMT 6 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash
3. There are two 100mm 2 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors and two behind the rear tweeters.
4. There are two 220mm 1ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
5. There is one Subwoofer in the dash by the steering wheel"
11-13-2015, 02:42 PM
#40
Why does the second generation 991 base stereo only have 150 watts versus the base in the first generation offering 235 watts; yet the car costs $7K more, minimally? Speculation: the second generation car is quieter, therefore less watts required for it to be adequately heard at driving speed?
Any other thoughts?
Any other thoughts?
11-13-2015, 06:40 PM
#41
Nordschleife Master
Found this on sixspeed. The OP on sixspeed has to recount the base system, 1+2+2+2+2 = 9, not 7
"The base system has 7 speakers
1. There is one 25W mid-range 80mm 4 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two 19mm 4 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash
3. There are two 100mm 4 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors
4. There are two 100mm 4 ohm mid-range speakers in the back seat (1 each side)
5. There are two 200mm 4ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
The Bose system has 12 speakers:
1. There is one 25W mid-range 80mm 4 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two 19mm 4 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash and two in the rear of the passenger seats
3. There are two 100mm 2 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors and two behind the rear tweeters.
4. There are two 220mm 1 ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
5. There is one 130mm 4 ohm Subwoofer in the dash by the steering wheel
The Burmester system has 12 speakers:
1. There is one mid-range 80mm 2 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two AMT 6 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash
3. There are two 100mm 2 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors and two behind the rear tweeters.
4. There are two 220mm 1ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
5. There is one Subwoofer in the dash by the steering wheel"
"The base system has 7 speakers
1. There is one 25W mid-range 80mm 4 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two 19mm 4 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash
3. There are two 100mm 4 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors
4. There are two 100mm 4 ohm mid-range speakers in the back seat (1 each side)
5. There are two 200mm 4ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
The Bose system has 12 speakers:
1. There is one 25W mid-range 80mm 4 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two 19mm 4 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash and two in the rear of the passenger seats
3. There are two 100mm 2 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors and two behind the rear tweeters.
4. There are two 220mm 1 ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
5. There is one 130mm 4 ohm Subwoofer in the dash by the steering wheel
The Burmester system has 12 speakers:
1. There is one mid-range 80mm 2 ohm speaker in the dash
2. There are two AMT 6 ohm tweeters (one on each side) in the dash
3. There are two 100mm 2 ohm mid-range speakers in the front of the doors and two behind the rear tweeters.
4. There are two 220mm 1ohm bass speakers in what looks like the rear of each door
5. There is one Subwoofer in the dash by the steering wheel"
Bose Speaker Placement
https://www.bose.co.uk/GB/en/Images/...tcm6-67083.pdf
11-17-2015, 07:56 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
"Watts" is a huge marketing term, just like horsepower. Let's talk hp first (because everyone here gets it), would you rather have 280 hp with a slim spike up to 420 hp or a large plane across a broad spread of rpms at say 400 hp? Of course it's the area under the curve that counts even though 400 loses the war on paper against the 420.
As for audio, Chuck911 was on to something but didn't quite make the connection. The loudness you actually hear is based on the efficiency of the speakers themselves, this is measued in dB/watt, usually at 1m. Any good home audio speaker will have an efficiency spec, this is how you determine how many watts you need to drive them properly (1 watt flea amps (SET) are typically pushing speakers that are over 109 dB efficient). So here we are, we are comparing "watts" while none of us know the efficiency of any of the drivers. As Chuck911 pointed out, it's logorithmic, therefore 7 speakers with a 98 dB efficiency being driven by 50 watts will smoke 9 speakers at 91 dB efficiency driven by 200 watts - but then that wouldn't be good marketing would it?
As for audio, Chuck911 was on to something but didn't quite make the connection. The loudness you actually hear is based on the efficiency of the speakers themselves, this is measued in dB/watt, usually at 1m. Any good home audio speaker will have an efficiency spec, this is how you determine how many watts you need to drive them properly (1 watt flea amps (SET) are typically pushing speakers that are over 109 dB efficient). So here we are, we are comparing "watts" while none of us know the efficiency of any of the drivers. As Chuck911 pointed out, it's logorithmic, therefore 7 speakers with a 98 dB efficiency being driven by 50 watts will smoke 9 speakers at 91 dB efficiency driven by 200 watts - but then that wouldn't be good marketing would it?
11-17-2015, 10:02 PM
#43
I don't think Porsche thought people with 991.1 would actually compare the stereo wattage with the 991.2. Porsche lowered the base system wattage so the gap between the base and the Bose is even greater, that makes people want to upgrade to Bose.