Petevb

That was his input when I drove with him in Sweden this February. I asked how he'd spec a GT4 as I was ordering one and he'd recently been driving them. He said he'd skip the radio, skip the AC but get the iron brakes.

I debated, but I couldn't go without AC... One day I'm convinced it'd be worth more if I had, but I live in CA and need to live with it now...



Thank you! It's got PCCBs, ironically enough- the unsprung to sprung weight ratio would get pretty rough on that car without them.

ipse dixit

Good find.

Just something to note.

The Rennteam link is from 2008, and apparently even back then with the Gen 2 PCCBs, Walter was of the opinion that PCCBs were to his liking.

Petevb

Lol. He was referencing his 996 GT3, so gen 1 PCCBs. We know how those held up in the long run with track use, but then Walter doesn't track his company car...

Apparently he had a change of heart in the intervening 7 years.

Noah Fect

Or he feels that the GT4's performance envelope isn't constrained by the iron brakes, while a GT3 might be.

Key Left

4s. But you'd be stuck with real torque steer issues as a result.

ibmiked

Walter was likely also considering the value proposition of the GT4. At it's proposed price point it is an insanely good value to performance ratio. Adding $10k PCCB brakes possibly did not yield a commensurate 10% increase in performance versus the approximate 10% increase in vehicle price. Life is about context, and his remarks to you don't provide any.

MagicRat

I drove two otherwise identical cars back to back on a track, one with PCCBs and one without. I'm no WR but the difference in feel was marked - whole car felt lighter on its feet with the ceramics.

jury_ca

I had PCCBs on my 996TT and I noticed that the steering feel was also much improved over my C4S with the steel turbo brakes. I'm not sure whether this benefit would be apparent in the electric rack though!

Petevb

I'm sure there's a lot to that, though remember the GT4's PCCB upgrade is both cheaper ($7400) and bigger (410mm) than those on more expensive cars like the 911.

PCCB technology is great. I disagree with the way Porsche tunes the pedal feel, but there is no arguing with 30+ lbs anywhere, let alone unsprung. There is just one significant issue with it: price. It comes standard on the Z28 and ZR1, with disks also made by SGL carbon, Porsche's supplier. A replacement disk set for those cars is $5k. On a 911 it's an $8.5k option, over 20k to replace the disks, and even pads cost more if you track.

Trying to justify this cost based on performance is questionable for most. My friends who compete nationally in SCCA always spec them: it's 30 lbs worth of performance you can't get any other way per the rules. For the rest of us, however, the option is nearing the cost difference between a Carrera GTS PDK and GT3. It's no where close to the commensurate performance bump.

The next argument is feel. PCCBs turn in better and ride the bumps better. I have no doubt some feel something. Yet ask yourself- when your car gets its brake rotors changed, or it gets new tires- can you feel the difference in weight?

I ask because an iron rotor at the wear limit has lost nearly 2.5 lbs, while worn pads are also a pound lighter. Meanwhile shaving or wearing off just 1/8" of rubber from the tire is worth 4 lbs. In total this worn setup saves an identical amount of weight to PCCBs, but because much of the weight is at the edge of the tire the moment of inertial is actually 40% lower. So that amazing ride over bumps and turn-in of PCCBs? You'll feel all of that and more.

If you feel your car lost its cat-like reflexes last time you did a brake job or put on new tires, you're a good candidate for PCCBs based on feel.

PCCBs do have an advantage in fade resistance. Even the massive 380mm enduro spec irons of the GT3 can be faded in the right conditions. Unfortunately these are the same conditions where PCCBs are hot enough to oxidize, and hence eat themselves rapidly. See the $20 replacement bill above.

Which leaves preferring the lower pedal effort (or not)... and brake dust. PCCBs are not without other downsides- they cut front downforce by nearly 40% on a GT4 for example- but they are not central to the question.

STG

Explained very well here

Look at the benefit of lighter wheels as well.

The issue as mentioned, is the "Porsche tax". What they charge just to swap out the iron S, GTS, rotors, calipers, and pads is ridiculous. You've already paid for those and they're keeping them.

The profit margin on this upgrade is ridiculous. Have if be in line with the Vette as mentioned, you'd see a lot more.

ibmiked

I agree wholeheartedly with your summarization. The reason I love Porsche is because if you want to chase pounds and tenths there is always something on the option list to do so. It may not make the most financial sense, but neither does buying a 911 unless you're in that 1% of owners that daily drive AND track the car. The rest of us do not need the capability this car offers for legal street use only. We buy these cars for what they're capable of, not necessarily how they'll be used.

Archimedes

The cost argument always cracks me up, given the fact that over half the people who buy a Porsche spend thousands on things like full leather interiors, deviated stitching and other blingy stuff. Seriously, PCCB brakes are a frivolous spend, but a leather coated dash makes sense?

ipse dixit

Buying a Porsche, any Porsche, and deciding what options to get, or not get, is all about want. Nothing about this car is about need.

No one needs a Porsche.

We buy a Porsche to satisfy our most basic automotive primal urges.

Archimedes

I agree, which is why the cost argument is irrelevant to the discussion of why someone would or would not spec PCCB brakes.

Petevb

Do you really believe that? I don't think you do. If PCCB cost 20k, would you spec them? 50k? 100?

Porsche uses a "value based" pricing model. They don't price based on what something costs, but rather based on how badly customers want it. Hence our desire for something and it's price are enexorably linked.

This is just one reason it's essentially impossible to have a rational discussion on the subject without price entering the equation.

Buying decisions, on the other hand, tend to be emotional first. We decide to buy something, then justify it rationally after the fact. Sometimes our logic can get quite contorted in the process...