Whats with the all encompassing hatred of Bose?
08-16-2014, 01:29 AM
#46
The problem, in addition to what I said above, is: vaguely pleasant sounding to whom? That's a very big problem! Because, if the goal is accuracy well then you can measure and test (both with instruments and ears) and get a pretty good idea what is or isn't accurate. But when the goal is "pleasant" well then you got nothing but opinions- and opinions floating totally free of any objective measure at that!
In other words, what you call garbage another person might actually like. Say what you like about Bose, but one thing for sure, if its in there its because they know their customers like it! If not you then someone else.
But its a funny thing. In all the comments about Bose and Burmester, I cannot recall anyone saying the Burmester sounds like garbage. Lots of people say that about Bose. (Which is good. Shows they are listening!) Lots of them say what you said- sounds decent IF. (Please note: Not good, just decent. Damning by faint praise....)
08-16-2014, 07:38 AM
#47
I don't hate Bose. They make the best aviation headsets, period. Many competitors are trying to make a better product, and they keep coming up short in one way or another.
Now for consumer audio, I never thought Bose was high-end, or anything even approaching it. My perception has always been average mass market stuff, sometimes with interesting design features. They kind have had the noise cancelling headset market to themselves, but now everyone makes them, either cheaper or with better audio quality (not with better noise cancelling, however).
For car audio, it's an upgrade over base. Usually more speakers and more watts. That's it. For me it's fine, I don't see the point of attempting audiophile sound in a car that isn't vault quiet to begin with. Lexus, MB, Lincoln, Cadillac are good platforms to do it. A 911? For me, a waste.
Now for consumer audio, I never thought Bose was high-end, or anything even approaching it. My perception has always been average mass market stuff, sometimes with interesting design features. They kind have had the noise cancelling headset market to themselves, but now everyone makes them, either cheaper or with better audio quality (not with better noise cancelling, however).
For car audio, it's an upgrade over base. Usually more speakers and more watts. That's it. For me it's fine, I don't see the point of attempting audiophile sound in a car that isn't vault quiet to begin with. Lexus, MB, Lincoln, Cadillac are good platforms to do it. A 911? For me, a waste.
08-16-2014, 07:45 AM
#48
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I've always liked my little Bose Wave radio and CD player in my office. Now it resides in the garage for car wash detailing days.
08-16-2014, 08:29 AM
#50
To be fair plasma does consume a hell of a lot more power and is much heavier than current LED which are pretty great. OLED looks to be even better. I am guessing that's why plasma is more or less dead at this point. Are there some applications where it's color range would be better, sure. From a watching HD movies standpoint, LED is just fine for most. LCD was total crap though.
LED is the back light that replaces the florescent light source. "LED" televisions are all LCD displays. They are just marketed as something special. In alot of cases they are actually worse. The only LCD I've seen that is almost acceptable is the Sharp Elite . And I still couldn't have that in my house.
OLED is a completely different technology. It is currently my only hope to ever replace my Panasonic Plasma.
08-16-2014, 08:30 AM
#51
Read my post above. This is one of the reasons behind the hatred. Pretty much every other company in high-end audio strives for the goal of neutrality. (In spite of being low-end to mid-fi at best, both Bose and their customers believe they are high-end.) But Bose never has had even one product that tried even a little bit to accurately reproduce a recording. Their first product, the 901, had 8 drivers bouncing sound off the walls with only one directed towards the listener. Hard to think of anything more inaccurate than that! So they have always favored vaguely pleasant sounding over involving accuracy.
The problem, in addition to what I said above, is: vaguely pleasant sounding to whom? That's a very big problem! Because, if the goal is accuracy well then you can measure and test (both with instruments and ears) and get a pretty good idea what is or isn't accurate. But when the goal is "pleasant" well then you got nothing but opinions- and opinions floating totally free of any objective measure at that!
In other words, what you call garbage another person might actually like. Say what you like about Bose, but one thing for sure, if its in there its because they know their customers like it! If not you then someone else.
But its a funny thing. In all the comments about Bose and Burmester, I cannot recall anyone saying the Burmester sounds like garbage. Lots of people say that about Bose. (Which is good. Shows they are listening!) Lots of them say what you said- sounds decent IF. (Please note: Not good, just decent. Damning by faint praise....)
The problem, in addition to what I said above, is: vaguely pleasant sounding to whom? That's a very big problem! Because, if the goal is accuracy well then you can measure and test (both with instruments and ears) and get a pretty good idea what is or isn't accurate. But when the goal is "pleasant" well then you got nothing but opinions- and opinions floating totally free of any objective measure at that!
In other words, what you call garbage another person might actually like. Say what you like about Bose, but one thing for sure, if its in there its because they know their customers like it! If not you then someone else.
But its a funny thing. In all the comments about Bose and Burmester, I cannot recall anyone saying the Burmester sounds like garbage. Lots of people say that about Bose. (Which is good. Shows they are listening!) Lots of them say what you said- sounds decent IF. (Please note: Not good, just decent. Damning by faint praise....)
08-16-2014, 08:44 AM
#52
Nordschleife Master
I don't hate Bose. They make the best aviation headsets, period. Many competitors are trying to make a better product, and they keep coming up short in one way or another.
Now for consumer audio, I never thought Bose was high-end, or anything even approaching it. My perception has always been average mass market stuff, sometimes with interesting design features. They kind have had the noise cancelling headset market to themselves, but now everyone makes them, either cheaper or with better audio quality (not with better noise cancelling, however).
For car audio, it's an upgrade over base. Usually more speakers and more watts. That's it. For me it's fine, I don't see the point of attempting audiophile sound in a car that isn't vault quiet to begin with. Lexus, MB, Lincoln, Cadillac are good platforms to do it. A 911? For me, a waste.
Now for consumer audio, I never thought Bose was high-end, or anything even approaching it. My perception has always been average mass market stuff, sometimes with interesting design features. They kind have had the noise cancelling headset market to themselves, but now everyone makes them, either cheaper or with better audio quality (not with better noise cancelling, however).
For car audio, it's an upgrade over base. Usually more speakers and more watts. That's it. For me it's fine, I don't see the point of attempting audiophile sound in a car that isn't vault quiet to begin with. Lexus, MB, Lincoln, Cadillac are good platforms to do it. A 911? For me, a waste.
I think this sums it up. I think a car is one of the worse acoustic environments there is.
08-16-2014, 09:19 AM
#53
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So 4 pages and no one has said how they tune their Bose system. I had a 5 series and on the forum someone posted all the settings they used. That system sounds amazing once I did that. I will agree that the Bose is not the best, but I'm not a hater, and I think some tweaking if the settings could make it much better
So can everyone share their settings and what they think works best?
I have treble +4
Bass +2
Linear and surround both on - although I keep changing this. I'm not sure surround is best for music, and I don't really know what linear does, although I think it does make it sound better...
So what does everyone else use for settings?
And did anyone use special equipment to tune it? I know the guy in the 5 series forum had some fancy setup that he ran with a mic and analyzed the output till he had it perfect...
So can everyone share their settings and what they think works best?
I have treble +4
Bass +2
Linear and surround both on - although I keep changing this. I'm not sure surround is best for music, and I don't really know what linear does, although I think it does make it sound better...
So what does everyone else use for settings?
And did anyone use special equipment to tune it? I know the guy in the 5 series forum had some fancy setup that he ran with a mic and analyzed the output till he had it perfect...
08-16-2014, 09:23 AM
#54
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Oh, and you can go all out and buy good speakers and hook up the amps throughout the house. A friend of mine did that and he loved it. Easy to set up...you can use any speakers you want. It's a little pricey, but my friend swore by it!
08-16-2014, 09:27 AM
#55
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What one perceives as good sound is such a personal thing. What sounds good to one person sound lousy to another. My settings are Bass - 2, Treble - 3, Fader - 2 to the rear, Surround - on. Some say having surround on makes the sound sound too artificial. Works for me. YMMV.
Agree with Money in that Bose is great at marketing. Bose is far from the best. I have listened to some pretty amazing systems, but I'd rather put my money elsewhere.
Agree with Money in that Bose is great at marketing. Bose is far from the best. I have listened to some pretty amazing systems, but I'd rather put my money elsewhere.
So 4 pages and no one has said how they tune their Bose system. I had a 5 series and on the forum someone posted all the settings they used. That system sounds amazing once I did that. I will agree that the Bose is not the best, but I'm not a hater, and I think some tweaking if the settings could make it much better
So can everyone share their settings and what they think works best?
I have treble +4
Bass +2
Linear and surround both on - although I keep changing this. I'm not sure surround is best for music, and I don't really know what linear does, although I think it does make it sound better...
So what does everyone else use for settings?
And did anyone use special equipment to tune it? I know the guy in the 5 series forum had some fancy setup that he ran with a mic and analyzed the output till he had it perfect...
So can everyone share their settings and what they think works best?
I have treble +4
Bass +2
Linear and surround both on - although I keep changing this. I'm not sure surround is best for music, and I don't really know what linear does, although I think it does make it sound better...
So what does everyone else use for settings?
And did anyone use special equipment to tune it? I know the guy in the 5 series forum had some fancy setup that he ran with a mic and analyzed the output till he had it perfect...
08-16-2014, 12:12 PM
#56
I expected that the sound would be marginal in my C4S Cab, and went with the Bose. My only complaint is when I am driving top up with AC in traffic etc... the sound doesn't adjust up with my speed. This is a feature it pretends to have but is completely useless. I have the setting set to do that, just isn't effective. Anyone had luck with that?
08-16-2014, 12:15 PM
#57
I guess I'm one of those guys that gets a small swell of anger everytime the word BOSE is used in a sentence. For a decent portion of my life, I researched, lived, breathed, ate, slept, dreamed, high-end Home Theater and 2 channel audio. I designed/sold systems that cost hundred of thousands of dollars. The hatred toward Bose is probably more jealousy of their marketing success.
They have hugely successfully convinced the masses that their low-cost, low-quality, infaerior products are not just good, but great. As soon as you mention the words car audio, music, or home movies, the vast majority of the US would word associate BOSE. I think that's pretty remarkable. As soon as I would mention the name before playing a note, most people have already made up their mind that the speakers sound good.
That being said, if you know what good actually sounds like, then BOSE will make you cringe. But, BOSE "engineers" have a very good understand what regular people think is quality sound. They don't make their stuff sound accurate, they make them sound they way people like it. If that is what you are after, then their mission is accomplished. Luckily for them, that's what most people want.
I think of it very much like the current state of Flat Panel televisions available today. The very best displays make you feel as though you are looking out your window. The colors are accurate, you get real life like graduation from white to grey to black, and obviously you get life-like detail. Well the TV I just described to you no longer exists. It's called a Plasma display. What happened? Marketing! Your local moron sales persons somehow created this world-wide BS rumor mill about Plasma and how LCD is better.
When I walk into a room with an LCD display(yes LED is LCD stop calling it LED), I can barely look at it. Every single one of them, no matter the calibration or cost look like crap. But they produce what people think they want, a bright picture. Newsflash, brighter isn't better.
Alright, I'm getting worked up. If you want to live in the dream world, buy BOSE. If you want something better out of life, do some homework. We drive Porsches for pete's sake! Be better!
They have hugely successfully convinced the masses that their low-cost, low-quality, infaerior products are not just good, but great. As soon as you mention the words car audio, music, or home movies, the vast majority of the US would word associate BOSE. I think that's pretty remarkable. As soon as I would mention the name before playing a note, most people have already made up their mind that the speakers sound good.
That being said, if you know what good actually sounds like, then BOSE will make you cringe. But, BOSE "engineers" have a very good understand what regular people think is quality sound. They don't make their stuff sound accurate, they make them sound they way people like it. If that is what you are after, then their mission is accomplished. Luckily for them, that's what most people want.
I think of it very much like the current state of Flat Panel televisions available today. The very best displays make you feel as though you are looking out your window. The colors are accurate, you get real life like graduation from white to grey to black, and obviously you get life-like detail. Well the TV I just described to you no longer exists. It's called a Plasma display. What happened? Marketing! Your local moron sales persons somehow created this world-wide BS rumor mill about Plasma and how LCD is better.
When I walk into a room with an LCD display(yes LED is LCD stop calling it LED), I can barely look at it. Every single one of them, no matter the calibration or cost look like crap. But they produce what people think they want, a bright picture. Newsflash, brighter isn't better.
Alright, I'm getting worked up. If you want to live in the dream world, buy BOSE. If you want something better out of life, do some homework. We drive Porsches for pete's sake! Be better!
08-16-2014, 01:46 PM
#59
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We have sonos gear and it works great.......
Spent a fortune on our last house wiring it for sound
Granted playing music through your iPad will flame purists but for around the house and yard it can't be beat
And their customer service is awesome if you need help
Spent a fortune on our last house wiring it for sound
Granted playing music through your iPad will flame purists but for around the house and yard it can't be beat
And their customer service is awesome if you need help
08-16-2014, 02:05 PM
#60
Rennlist Member
Coming from a bunch of Z3's and an M Roadster where the stereo was actually a bummer, I would constantly remind myself that as a kid everyone was totally fine with a 4x8 speaker in the center of the dash and if we were lucky it had an FM option on the radio.
I would flash back to the big ford country squire station wagons I grew up in listening to Helen Reddy & Kenny Rogers 8 tracks and thinking my older brothers were audiophiles for discovering Jensen 6x9's.
At one point, I just couldn't take it anymore and went to the high end stereo shop and spent thousands trying to make the stereo in a Z3 sound like whatever Yoyo Ma would have in his Bentley - but keep everything looking "generally stock"
It never got there. It's a ridiculously tall order. Sound is so subjective, and cars are small, and if the roof goes down, well... There's that to deal with too.
As others have said, BOSE shoots right down the middle. They definitely are better than the stock stereo as far as fullness/richness of sound to the ears of your average and even slightly above average Joe.
Coming from my last M Roadster with Focal & JL Audio & I don't even remember what all amps we finally settled on, I just know they were not cheap- the Bose in my C2S cab sounded better than the M Roadster ever did.
Now, a year later I look back on the custom build in the BMW and sometimes I miss it. It DID sound good, especially when I was parked and standing outside of the car. It was amazing from THAT perspective. But I remember how frustrated and irritated I became trying to just make that little car sound great and I say, "Naaaaa." I don't want to do that ever again.
The Bose is good enough.
Would I like it to sound better? Sure. More bass? Cleaner mids? Crisper highs? A more defined left right and center sound stage? Sure. - but an audiophile's sense of awesome is generally much flatter sounding than my sense of awesome.
Most of my music is compressed down to 128kbps or 160 at best. I'm not playing AIFF or anything lossless or flac or even whatever just regular old commercial CD's are - so the media is actually a big part of the problem.
I think it's funny the threads hating on Bose. Sure they claim to be awesome. Who doesn't? Haha it's worked for them, and they've secured massive accounts with giant distribution channels. We should all be so lucky.
My system has an alpine head, I forget which one. And there's a couple of big looking amps in the frunk. I don't recall but they could be alpine or Kenwood or something. I think one if them says v12 on it somewhere, but I've never really looked. I mean, I've LOOKED but I've never really paid attention- because I know that if I got something else. A burmeister (sp) or something hand made, a Macintosh amp with Mirage speakers - etc etc. it would still have little quirks that chapped me once in a while. It wouldn't sound exactly how I want, a **** would be in a funny place, or "if it only had ..."
For me, the fix was a pair of Darin Fister's sport mufflers.
Does that mean I pretend to only ever listen to "that sweet flat six symphony" ? Naww - it's always there though. I listen to country and blues and punk rock and electronica and indie and classical and all kinds of jazz and shoegazey music and hip hop and whatever else comes on, and generally it's fine. When the sound or the soundtrack bums me out, which does happen - I just press pause, and then press throttle.
It always helps.
I would flash back to the big ford country squire station wagons I grew up in listening to Helen Reddy & Kenny Rogers 8 tracks and thinking my older brothers were audiophiles for discovering Jensen 6x9's.
At one point, I just couldn't take it anymore and went to the high end stereo shop and spent thousands trying to make the stereo in a Z3 sound like whatever Yoyo Ma would have in his Bentley - but keep everything looking "generally stock"
It never got there. It's a ridiculously tall order. Sound is so subjective, and cars are small, and if the roof goes down, well... There's that to deal with too.
As others have said, BOSE shoots right down the middle. They definitely are better than the stock stereo as far as fullness/richness of sound to the ears of your average and even slightly above average Joe.
Coming from my last M Roadster with Focal & JL Audio & I don't even remember what all amps we finally settled on, I just know they were not cheap- the Bose in my C2S cab sounded better than the M Roadster ever did.
Now, a year later I look back on the custom build in the BMW and sometimes I miss it. It DID sound good, especially when I was parked and standing outside of the car. It was amazing from THAT perspective. But I remember how frustrated and irritated I became trying to just make that little car sound great and I say, "Naaaaa." I don't want to do that ever again.
The Bose is good enough.
Would I like it to sound better? Sure. More bass? Cleaner mids? Crisper highs? A more defined left right and center sound stage? Sure. - but an audiophile's sense of awesome is generally much flatter sounding than my sense of awesome.
Most of my music is compressed down to 128kbps or 160 at best. I'm not playing AIFF or anything lossless or flac or even whatever just regular old commercial CD's are - so the media is actually a big part of the problem.
I think it's funny the threads hating on Bose. Sure they claim to be awesome. Who doesn't? Haha it's worked for them, and they've secured massive accounts with giant distribution channels. We should all be so lucky.
My system has an alpine head, I forget which one. And there's a couple of big looking amps in the frunk. I don't recall but they could be alpine or Kenwood or something. I think one if them says v12 on it somewhere, but I've never really looked. I mean, I've LOOKED but I've never really paid attention- because I know that if I got something else. A burmeister (sp) or something hand made, a Macintosh amp with Mirage speakers - etc etc. it would still have little quirks that chapped me once in a while. It wouldn't sound exactly how I want, a **** would be in a funny place, or "if it only had ..."
For me, the fix was a pair of Darin Fister's sport mufflers.
Does that mean I pretend to only ever listen to "that sweet flat six symphony" ? Naww - it's always there though. I listen to country and blues and punk rock and electronica and indie and classical and all kinds of jazz and shoegazey music and hip hop and whatever else comes on, and generally it's fine. When the sound or the soundtrack bums me out, which does happen - I just press pause, and then press throttle.
It always helps.