Instructor killed at Summit Point Raceway
06-09-2014, 12:25 AM
#1
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Instructor killed at Summit Point Raceway
Instructor dies in raceway crash at Summit Point - Herald Mail Media: West Virginia
Sad day for track guys. They were on the Jefferson circuit, which is the small training track (one of three circuits at Summit Point). I've never liked this course, because trees are too close to the track and I've seen four cars over the years go into the tree lines, and I've been into that tree line myself with out-of-control student in 2002 (broken ribs to show for it). This time it killed the instructor. I don't know why they insist on keeping trees so close to the run-off areas, but its been a problem for years. Trees don't move when you hit them. No one goes out for a DE day and expects to wind up in the morgue, and after 18 years as an Instructor myself I'm pretty well done with it. When I started back in 1996, we'd go out in 160 HP cars, not what comes to the track are 400 and 500 HP student cars, and they really get going, sometimes faster than the skill set of the person driving them. High speed crashes in a street car are usually bad news for the occupants, there are no cages and 6-points in the car. You guys that do DE days with Instructors - please remember that you are there to have a good time, but that volunteer Instructor is really putting his life in your hands - be aware of that and don't exceed your personal capabilities at the track.
Sad day for track guys. They were on the Jefferson circuit, which is the small training track (one of three circuits at Summit Point). I've never liked this course, because trees are too close to the track and I've seen four cars over the years go into the tree lines, and I've been into that tree line myself with out-of-control student in 2002 (broken ribs to show for it). This time it killed the instructor. I don't know why they insist on keeping trees so close to the run-off areas, but its been a problem for years. Trees don't move when you hit them. No one goes out for a DE day and expects to wind up in the morgue, and after 18 years as an Instructor myself I'm pretty well done with it. When I started back in 1996, we'd go out in 160 HP cars, not what comes to the track are 400 and 500 HP student cars, and they really get going, sometimes faster than the skill set of the person driving them. High speed crashes in a street car are usually bad news for the occupants, there are no cages and 6-points in the car. You guys that do DE days with Instructors - please remember that you are there to have a good time, but that volunteer Instructor is really putting his life in your hands - be aware of that and don't exceed your personal capabilities at the track.
06-09-2014, 02:09 AM
#2
Wow. Prayers for this poor guy and his family.
Jim
Jim
06-09-2014, 08:39 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
Holy crap. My local PCA region uses Summit Point as our "main track" and I did a HPDC on that circuit earlier this year. Yes, the trees are close. It's a small circuit and I wouldn't think you could get up too fast on the one straight stretch, but with the newer cars - sure you're up there in no time. Going into the last turn after that stretch can be a problem, but the runoff seems better there. I would love to get the details to know where it happened.
A little while ago at a DE at a different Summit Point circuit (main) we had two cars go off - one pretty badly rolling into the trees, but the trees are back enough that it didn't do any more damage than a rolling car would do (driver OK after a brief hospital check).
Here's a link:
http://www.heraldmailmedia.com/news/...e6d384cd4.html
A little while ago at a DE at a different Summit Point circuit (main) we had two cars go off - one pretty badly rolling into the trees, but the trees are back enough that it didn't do any more damage than a rolling car would do (driver OK after a brief hospital check).
Here's a link:
http://www.heraldmailmedia.com/news/...e6d384cd4.html
06-09-2014, 08:58 AM
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I've seen with my own eyes two crashes into the tree line at the Jefferson circuit. One was back in 1999 at T5 coming out of the corner, a fellow instructor of mine in an BMW M3 came off the corner too hot, got sideways and went into the trees mangling his car pretty good, but he walked away from it. The other time was approaching T5 on the inside during the AMG Driving Experience around 2004 where Mercedes supplied the cars. Student was in an E55 and got sideways coming off T4, tried to correct and went into the trees to the left of T5. We were right behind them and watched it unfold. Destroyed the Mercedes but the airbags saved them. In both cases had the trees not been there they would have just picked up some grass and dirt on the cars is all.
http://summitpoint-raceway.com/track...erson-circuit/
I myself have been impacted into the tree line there at T7, which occurred when my idiot student in a BMW 3 series on the MAIN course lost control because he was racing instead of listening, went off T3 on the Main and tried to get back on the track and we shot across the pavement and impacted the tree line on my side of the car. Broke my ribs and totalled his car.
Bill Scott, who used to own Summit Point before he passed away from cancer a few years ago, kept apple trees all around the track, and they used to harvest them, that's why he always liked the trees. But they are a real problem at that track and also means there are a lot of deer there as well because of the fruit and foliage (there have been a lot of deer strikes at the track over the years as Summit as well). After reading about this latest death from a tree line strike, I have sent Summit Point an email telling them I will no longer instruct at their track until they clear off the trees....if enough people will do that, then maybe they will get the bulldozers out. To me, Summit Point is a hazardous track and I'm all done with it.
http://summitpoint-raceway.com/track...erson-circuit/
I myself have been impacted into the tree line there at T7, which occurred when my idiot student in a BMW 3 series on the MAIN course lost control because he was racing instead of listening, went off T3 on the Main and tried to get back on the track and we shot across the pavement and impacted the tree line on my side of the car. Broke my ribs and totalled his car.
Bill Scott, who used to own Summit Point before he passed away from cancer a few years ago, kept apple trees all around the track, and they used to harvest them, that's why he always liked the trees. But they are a real problem at that track and also means there are a lot of deer there as well because of the fruit and foliage (there have been a lot of deer strikes at the track over the years as Summit as well). After reading about this latest death from a tree line strike, I have sent Summit Point an email telling them I will no longer instruct at their track until they clear off the trees....if enough people will do that, then maybe they will get the bulldozers out. To me, Summit Point is a hazardous track and I'm all done with it.
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06-09-2014, 01:18 PM
#9
It's bad enough when professional drivers are injured or killed when racing. They are professionals and are aware of the risks. But when a fatality occurs at a DE event, that is unforgivable, especially when a hazardous situation is identified without remedial action being taken to minimize the risk.
06-09-2014, 03:52 PM
#11
I know where you're coming from, drcollie, and my heart goes out to you, and the family and friends of the man who lost his life trying to help others, but deep down I think we both know how little good it does telling novices not to exceed their abilities; we both know they have no clue what their abilities are in the first place. But we do. They have the ability… to get into trouble.
My region PNWR used to have serious, life-threatening incidents all the time. Then we managed a wholesale leadership change, focused like a laser on education, and for a whole year had zero incidents. Not just zero serious accidents either, but zero, period.
This isn't to question the man who lost his life, but to honor his memory. He died trying to help someone learn to drive. The lesson of PNWR is that the safest way to do that is to focus on education. Cut down some trees, sure. Then double-down on DE.
My region PNWR used to have serious, life-threatening incidents all the time. Then we managed a wholesale leadership change, focused like a laser on education, and for a whole year had zero incidents. Not just zero serious accidents either, but zero, period.
This isn't to question the man who lost his life, but to honor his memory. He died trying to help someone learn to drive. The lesson of PNWR is that the safest way to do that is to focus on education. Cut down some trees, sure. Then double-down on DE.
06-09-2014, 04:55 PM
#13
Race Car
From the link originally provided this appears to have not been a PCA DE event:
"The instructor was a passenger in a 2006 Pontiac GTO driven by someone Saturday as part of the HyperFest event, according to Sgt. Robert Sell of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department.
HyperFest allows amateur drivers to take their own vehicles onto the track with a National Auto Sport Association driver in the passenger seat, Sell said."
It was as drcollie points out on a deficient "traininig" track. I am not second guessing- PCA DEs have thier share of accidents- the local body shops are big event benificiaries. I also appreciate the concern about instructing with today's cars and students. I had my 991C2S out last year on Summit Point Main circuit (a race course and far safer IMHO) because I was thinking about returning to instructing. I ran PCA DEs, instructed, raced and served as a steward with SCCA at Summit point for 20 years in various cars before quiting in the late 1980s. But based on the speeds I reached easily in the 991, rusty and aged as I am, I decided that I would not go out again without a rollcage.
"The instructor was a passenger in a 2006 Pontiac GTO driven by someone Saturday as part of the HyperFest event, according to Sgt. Robert Sell of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department.
HyperFest allows amateur drivers to take their own vehicles onto the track with a National Auto Sport Association driver in the passenger seat, Sell said."
It was as drcollie points out on a deficient "traininig" track. I am not second guessing- PCA DEs have thier share of accidents- the local body shops are big event benificiaries. I also appreciate the concern about instructing with today's cars and students. I had my 991C2S out last year on Summit Point Main circuit (a race course and far safer IMHO) because I was thinking about returning to instructing. I ran PCA DEs, instructed, raced and served as a steward with SCCA at Summit point for 20 years in various cars before quiting in the late 1980s. But based on the speeds I reached easily in the 991, rusty and aged as I am, I decided that I would not go out again without a rollcage.
Last edited by chuckbdc; 06-10-2014 at 09:25 AM.
06-09-2014, 07:43 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
Track first timers are now showing up in their first sports cars ...factory equipped with 600- 900 horsepower, with no end in sight, vs a 120 hp Miata , where you could enjoyably redline it in first five gears for almost a full minute on a winding country road , wind in the hair, and still not be at the speed of some of today's cars which get there in seconds , when throttle action is all done.
Heck, my first 911 28 years ago , and my 5th sporty car , had a whopping factory 217 hp , if I recall and the four before had less than 300 hp .....TOTAL !
I would argue , we had MORE fun with 100-300 hp back then than drivers with 400-900 hp today, because there was no internet bench racing forcing the numbers forever higher from every makes' marketing , not competition , departments.
wouldn't want to be the instructor who rides shotgun with the 25 y/o tech billionaire who shows up at Laguna Seca in his first car ( never mind sports car ) ...a McLaren P1
Heck, my first 911 28 years ago , and my 5th sporty car , had a whopping factory 217 hp , if I recall and the four before had less than 300 hp .....TOTAL !
I would argue , we had MORE fun with 100-300 hp back then than drivers with 400-900 hp today, because there was no internet bench racing forcing the numbers forever higher from every makes' marketing , not competition , departments.
wouldn't want to be the instructor who rides shotgun with the 25 y/o tech billionaire who shows up at Laguna Seca in his first car ( never mind sports car ) ...a McLaren P1
Last edited by MKW; 06-10-2014 at 02:20 AM.