uhear

Great info from everyone in my previous thread, thanks, really. Here is the video from my last track session with the "B" rated Blue sticker group at Mid-Ohio. You will see I saved the spin at 12:44 - the last lap while chasing a CUP GT3 racer.
UPDATE: The 991 is VERY capable and a joy to run and I quickly drove myself into the "B" rated group. Yes some of that is the driver learning and applying but I cannot learn and apply at the pace I did without confidence in the vehicle.

Having said that, brake fade was consistently terrible about halfway into each session. I simply lost bite and confidence! The same with tires, I lost cornering grip. I am running 20" Pirelli P-Zero 305/30 ZR30 (103y) on rear and 245/35 ZR20 (91Y) on front. I do not want a full R rated tire and I do not want slicks. I want an Extreme Performance Summer (EPS) tire like Dunlop ZII, Hankook RS3, Nitto NT01, BFG Rival, and Goodyear Supercar G:2. Any suggestions/recommendations?

Let me add I'm gonna need new wheels too - help me with 18's or 19's and please suggest a brand. Admittedly I do not know much about any of this!, I grip the wheel and drive - that's all.

As for Brakes, track guys there suggested Hawk DTC60 and DTC70 pads. Added that the PFC is also another very good pad company. Tend to be more expensive; however, their endurance pad does last a longer time and works well in DE events. Any suggestions/recommendations?

I am excited to get back on the track but have decided I'm not doing so until these upgrades have been completed. HELP...

drcollie

I watched your session and you're doing very well, but you tend to early apex on a few or the tighter corners and that's what is giving you a little tire squeal. Singing tires are happy tires! When you did your corner sets right, I didn't see that you were over-driving the tires at all. You need a little technique refinement but its nothing major just polishing your skills a bit. At 12:50 when you had the little wiggle, you were over in the 'marbles' and tracked out a little too far is all - you were a LONG ways from a full on spinout actually.

Are you sure your brakes are fading or are you just looking for more bite? Most the corners at Mid-Ohio are pretty fast. The key to fade is heat control and make sure your brake fluid is fresh. As far as bite, you can run a more aggressive pad if you want but they will chew rotors at a faster rate, and rattle around with squeal and brake dust.

If you're going for more grip, go to R-Compounds, because another street tire won't do that much for you. From what I saw in your video, you probably should keep working on polishing skills and refining your lines more than equipment upgrade, but that's up to you. Never run slicks - your car is not set up for them, but a nice R-Compound will give you about 30% more grip and 30% more stop power (hard on the brakes) over a street tire, they just wear out quickly and don't have a lot of puncture resistance so its not a good idea to drive them to the track if you can avoid it.

There's a tendency to want to upgrade the car, but the reality is until you have a number of days under your belt upgrading the driver is the best bet. Until you can make the tires sing all the way around in most every corner, you really haven't 'outrun' the tires and need more aggressive ones. You learn more on street tires as breakaways are more gentle and recoverable. As you get into more aggressive rubber the car sticks more, but when it finally goes it takes a higher skill level to recover the car.

chuck911

Listen to drcollie, he's given good advice. To wit: "you tend to early apex" [a lot!], "When you did your corner sets right, I didn't see that you were over-driving the tires at all." "From what I saw in your video, you probably should keep working on polishing skills and refining your lines more than equipment upgrade."

And my favorite: "There's a tendency to want to upgrade the car, but the reality is until you have a number of days under your belt upgrading the driver is the best bet. Until you can make the tires sing all the way around in most every corner, you really haven't 'outrun' the tires and need more aggressive ones. You learn more on street tires as breakaways are more gentle and recoverable. As you get into more aggressive rubber the car sticks more, but when it finally goes it takes a higher skill level to recover the car."

Now with that in mind go back and watch your reaction to oversteer at 12:36. You were very slow to correct, then overcorrected when you did. Before doing anything to your car you might want to freeze frame and study the view right at 12:53. drcollie again: "As you get into more aggressive rubber the car sticks more, but when it finally goes it takes a higher skill level to recover the car." Food for thought.

008

I really like PFC's products, been running them since 2000. Not a fan of Hawk. I have three days on a set of PFC 11s and highly recommend them for a DE pad. Not as much initial torque as the 01s but still more than Pagid yellows or blacks IMO. apex can sell you a set at a good price. Not many make figments for our cars at this point. Also swap your fluid for SRF or Motul. My first "hotter" event with this car and compound is this weekend at COTA, three days with a few long sessions and I'll be guesting in a 991 cup with the new PFC brake system running these pads if it works out.

The P zeros are fine to learn on but will not hold up to the heat in longer sessions like an R compound. Again not a lot of variety out there in 19 or 20" sizes. You can't run 18s on a 991. The new PSC2 in GT3 sizes have gotten some decent reviews but still new. I understand Nitto is working on the NT01 in 991 friendly sizes which should provide a great tire at a more reasonable price.

uhear

Great feedback and all of it is appreciated and valuable. drcollie, perfect post - thanks!

Yes I am looking for a brake pad that will give me more initial BITE and then more "staying" power throughout the session. If I could trust this equipment I can stay in throttle longer then brake aggressively to better set up the apex. I have no problem changing these out at the track when I put on the new wheels. *I forgot to add the stainless brake-lines, adding those too.

I am on the lookout for a set of track wheels and tires. Yes, something I will not run on the street but to change out at the track. Will look for the "R" and perhaps the Nitto NT01 to come available.

New question, what is SRF or Motul? Again, all advice and experience is greatly appreciated.

008

SRF and motul are higher temp brake fluid brands. They require slightly accelerated flush schedules but if you are tracking your car often and bleeding the brakes accordingly it will never be an issue. I prefer motul but many swear by SRF.

Macduff

I've run high temp ATE Super Blue brake fluid and PFC '08 pads at a few events on my 997.2 C2S and experienced no brake fade whatsoever. One of those events was even in June with 90-100 degree weather. The PFC '08s are a little pricey but worth it, I swap mine in the weekend before I go to the track and swap the regular pads back in the weekend after. It takes awhile the first time but once you learn the ropes you'll be fairly quick at it.

You might even try just the brake fluid at first if you aren't comfortable swapping pads, that should eliminate your fade problems if you aren't too hard on the brakes.

Also, I've been using street tires, Potenza RE050a's. They are good but if I were to get a new set I'd get Michelin PSS's.

Good luck and keep at it!

Macduff

Sorry, just saw this follow-up post. SRF and Motul are other high temp brake fluids. ATE Super Blue, SRF, and Motul are all very good and held in high regard. Regarding the pad swap, PFC '08s definitely have good initial bite (at track temperatures) and will give you the confidence to push the brakes a little more (good pedal feel when pushed). I just wouldn't run them on the street (much) as they don't work as well when they aren't warmed up. I'm sure other pads are good too, I've just had a good experience with the PFC '08s in particular (I think I got them from Apex Performance). Happy tracking!

mtony

Another thumbs up for Performance Friction pads. I have used both the PFC01 and PFC08 pads and liked them both. The 01s feel better, but the 08s last longer. I used Motul RBF 600 and never had any issues, although it never stayed in longer than a year before it was flushed with new fluid. BTW, many of the Hawk pads will ruin your wheels if the dust gets wet and bakes into the finish.

Hammer911

I assume you reference the concrete wall that fills the entire width of view through the windscreen. That's close enough at that orientation, thank you!

chuck911

That's the view I'm talking about alright. Most guys, the first few times they oversteer like that, either they correct way, WAY too slow and too little and go off the inside sideways, or (like happened in the video) correct way too slow and too much, in which case they snap back and go off to the outside. Which is the view at 12:53. The right way to correct is instantly and decisively. In most cases that means moving the wheel so far and so fast that most people are frankly reluctant (read, scared) to do it. But the reason its necessary is the rear end has basically suddenly moved a foot or two outside the line that the front is still tracking. The only way to correct this is instantly move the front a foot or two to the outside. Done correctly the car is hardly upset at all, and if you feel anything its that the car simply drifted sideways a bit. Now that you know pay attention to other videos, of skilled guys like WR or Patrick Long, you will see them twitch the wheel lightening fast for seemingly no reason, now you understand why.

But your goal, you and uhear and every other novice, is avoiding situations like this in the first place. Another guy, I think it was on your DE thread, said most incidents occur when not one but several things go wrong at the same time. In this case it was not braking hard enough, going in too fast, being off line, trying to race not drive, lifting, and correcting too much too late. In my experience three mistakes at once and you are off the track. That was four yet he stayed on, which says a lot for how much they've improved the 911. I leave it to you to figure out which four of the six count. Yeah, homework. There goes the neighborhood!

MJBird993

I've used the PFC01 pads and they are fantastic but wear quickly and are very dirty. And expensive.

That said... better pads will not help your setup for the apex (post #5). Yes, the OE pads will tend to lose some of that bite and effectiveness as they get hot, but typically once they get to that point they are pretty consistent, IME. So when you've got some heat in there, just allow for it and set your braking points accordingly. Worry less about getting that extra two feet before you have to brake and concentrate more on being smooth in your transitions, braking, acceleration, turning. It should be smooth like glass. If you have a passenger, they should be dozing off, you're so smooth.

It looks like you're having fun and not doing anything stupid, which is the main thing. Enjoy!

uhear

Again, thank you ALL for these posts. I am new to Porsche, and high end sports cars, and the advice you all offer is valuable. It will be a month or so until I am back on the track and I cannot wait to these tips to good use!

AudiOn19s

Here's my .02 for what it's worth.

You have a fantastic driving foundation. You have a good feel for where the limits of the car are and continuing on street rubber will only make that better.

You are at the point where you need to slow down and push less to go faster. As you push for more pace you are getting erratic in your driving. Some corners you are early on turn in, others you are really late but the next lap you fix half of those and make other mistakes. I truly truly believe if you took it down just one notch and worked on consistently hitting your marks lap after lap you would be just as quick if not quicker without any of the drama you are seeing now.

One thing you are doing every lap is you are too hot in the middle of the keyhole and carousel. Your entry speed is actually OK in both places but you need to kill a few more MPH mid corner to get the front pointed in the direction you want so that you can be back to the gas sooner and get better drive off. Remember the turns before the longest straights are the ones where it's most critical to get it right. Look at the 12:10 mark where you are following the GT3 RS it's a perfect example of this. You make up time on him at corner entry...that's because he's too wide and too slow. You did great there on entry, but you didn't kill enough speed and get the car pointed an the result was you were late on the gas and you suffered those effects all the way down the front straight. His car isn't any faster than yours in a straight line but watch it disappear in the distance because of when he was able to apply the throttle in the carousel.

Same basic issue with your moment coming out of the keyhole. Wrong trajectory from too much mid corner speed, full throttle with TONS of steering input still in the car. 3-4mph less mid corner speed in keyhole, get it pointed and down on that inside curb for your drive off and open up the wheel as you go full throttle and the result will be an extra 5+ mph of speed at the end of the straight.

Keep up the good work...you are well on your way to being a great advanced driver

uhear

Ok, here is my full disclosure statement:

Until last weekend I have never been on a track - EVER. What you are seeing in the video is my 5th of 5 - 20 minute track sessions of the day and my 5th -20 minute track session of my life. I chose to run with my instructor for all sessions regardless of color grouping which began with Yellow and ended with Blue.

When I arrived Saturday morning and finished tech I was introduced to the track in the passenger seat of my instructors car for a 20 minute session. This was my first time ever on a track - period. After that he drove my car in the next 20 minute session, again with me as a passenger. When it was my turn in the drivers seat, and my instructor in the passenger seat, this was the first time I have ever driven on a track at speed. During that session my instructor was tweaking my natural driving abilities and providing technique advice. At the conclusion of this session I was evaluated and placed into C group - yellow dot. Overall I ran 3 total yellow sessions, was evaluated again, and then placed into the B grouping, Blue dot.

I have always been comfortable with speed and I am a confident, quick learner. Waking in I felt I had an above average knowledge of driving techniques and track terms, but never had the opportunity to actually apply what I thought I knew. My instructor has a world of experience, has been a test track driver, an employee of Ford Racing, and a special consultant to winning IndyCar drivers. He is also a lead instructor. We worked well together and I am looking forward to more track time and development.

Thank you all for your thoughts, opinions, and advice. I am very good at taking advice, learning from others, and making improvements.