M6 convertible or C4S Cabriolet?
11-03-2013, 11:45 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
the comparison isn't apples to apples, but are there really any other cars in either of their segments?
to a certain extent the m6 comp package is too sport to be compared to an audi or mb....
you have an MB E550 or such on one end of the spectrum and the 911 on the other...the M6 sits in between probably leaning alot closer to the 911
jeff
to a certain extent the m6 comp package is too sport to be compared to an audi or mb....
you have an MB E550 or such on one end of the spectrum and the 911 on the other...the M6 sits in between probably leaning alot closer to the 911
jeff
11-04-2013, 12:12 AM
#32
the comparison isn't apples to apples, but are there really any other cars in either of their segments?
to a certain extent the m6 comp package is too sport to be compared to an audi or mb....
you have an MB E550 or such on one end of the spectrum and the 911 on the other...the M6 sits in between probably leaning a lot closer to the 911
jeff
to a certain extent the m6 comp package is too sport to be compared to an audi or mb....
you have an MB E550 or such on one end of the spectrum and the 911 on the other...the M6 sits in between probably leaning a lot closer to the 911
jeff
11-04-2013, 09:31 AM
#34
Good question, and I am aware of it's performance accolades. I have never driven one so I cannot comment on how good it's steering and handling is. What I will say is what ever it lacks in handling capabilities it makes up with Twin Turbos and an extra 150 hp. It's also not 1300 pounds heavier, it's 700 pounds heavier.
But there is no doubt, the GTR is an amazing performing car, but it's not posing as a luxury gran touring car…It's clearly dressed as a big fast track car.
But there is no doubt, the GTR is an amazing performing car, but it's not posing as a luxury gran touring car…It's clearly dressed as a big fast track car.
11-04-2013, 11:01 AM
#35
"A few years ago" the DCT did not exist in the M5/M6. Perhaps you mean the SMG-single clutch. I have owned several of both (and currently own a 2013 M6 cab along with my 2014 991S PDK) and I can tell you there is not much difference. BMW has done a fantastic job with the DCT.
11-04-2013, 11:13 AM
#36
"A few years ago" the DCT did not exist in the M5/M6. Perhaps you mean the SMG-single clutch. I have owned several of both (and currently own a 2013 M6 cab along with my 2014 991S PDK) and I can tell you there is not much difference. BMW has done a fantastic job with the DCT.
11-04-2013, 11:34 AM
#37
Anyone who compares the attributes of a M5 or an M6 to a 911 is an automotive fool. Sorry, but that has to be acknowledged here. There is absolutely no comparison between the two cars. It's like comparing a Cheetah to Wolf, their capabilities are completely different, but both are still excellent hunters. (the 911 being the Cheetah).
Now for Kosmo...First I want to say I love your quote from Barney Frank, but I really dislike what you said about the M5. Until you own something and spend time with it, you're really in no position to judge it. Getting the feel of a car does not occur in a test drive. It's like being with a women, sometimes a chemistry is cultivated and then it flourishes. Thats how I feel about my M5. Having the 911 makes me appreciate it more because it is so different and satisfies a different aspect of driving. "To each is own" applies here I presume, but the M5 is still an amazing car, unless you expect too much from it. For me, it does everything that I thought and expected it to. Comparing it to the Panny...Fair comparison. However acceleration- AWD vs. RWD?, I guarantee the M5 will persevere up top. Handling, yeah Porsche is usually the best when it comes to that. Looks- in my opinion, the M5 is better looking. Interior- I don't care for the Porsche interior. Price- GTS nicely equipped: $130,000 vs M5: $108,000
I'm not here to be a troll, but since I am in position to judge because I own the two cars the OP questioned, it puts me in a position to give a fair assessment. I hope it helped.
Now for Kosmo...First I want to say I love your quote from Barney Frank, but I really dislike what you said about the M5. Until you own something and spend time with it, you're really in no position to judge it. Getting the feel of a car does not occur in a test drive. It's like being with a women, sometimes a chemistry is cultivated and then it flourishes. Thats how I feel about my M5. Having the 911 makes me appreciate it more because it is so different and satisfies a different aspect of driving. "To each is own" applies here I presume, but the M5 is still an amazing car, unless you expect too much from it. For me, it does everything that I thought and expected it to. Comparing it to the Panny...Fair comparison. However acceleration- AWD vs. RWD?, I guarantee the M5 will persevere up top. Handling, yeah Porsche is usually the best when it comes to that. Looks- in my opinion, the M5 is better looking. Interior- I don't care for the Porsche interior. Price- GTS nicely equipped: $130,000 vs M5: $108,000
I'm not here to be a troll, but since I am in position to judge because I own the two cars the OP questioned, it puts me in a position to give a fair assessment. I hope it helped.
The issue, in my opinion, is that BMW people do not like to acknowledge the limitations of the M5/6 that are unavoidable effects of the weight of the cars. Frequently you see comments about "this car handles amazing" but it is always followed by "for a 4,400lb car". IMO there is either handling well or not handling well-period. The "for a 4,400 lb car" statement bears ZERO relevance and the M5/6 surely do not fall into the handling well category. A for raw power-100% the BMW is more exciting than the 991S. I spent a solid 2 months trying to "understand" the 991. I would go to the dealer in one of my M cars (2103 M5 or 2013 M6 cab) and always leave the Porsche dealer feeling, well, disappointed. I would jump in my M car and speed away thinking "my expectations of a Porsche were so much higher". I would literally poke fun at my M friends who either bought a 991 to add to their stable or traded their M for one. Embarassingly now, I was calling the 991 a "dog". I once even had a P car salesman take out a C4S to race me at different speeds in my M6 cab. The results were interesting: 0-60=P car wins. very low speed rolls=P car wins. Low to moderate speed rolls=M car wins. Highway rolls=M car IMMEDIATELY jumps 1-1.5 lengths (very easily) and P car hangs in the decently. So why does the P car win form a dig or from low speeds? Because BMW has NOT figured out how to put the power down. There is no such ting as Launch "Control" in the BMW. Regardless of how any BMW owner wants to argue this, it is commonly known and discussed that the only way BMW will manage this is with AWD or a complete re-work of the M diff and DME. For now, BMW has what you would call "Launch and go sideways". You can get to speed the fastest by putting the DCT in auto D3 mode and stomping on it. We all know how insanely PERFECT the LC is in the Porsche-heads and shoulders above.
As far as cornering-it is apples to sloppy joes. sorry, can't think of a better analogy. The M5/6 are VERY heavy. You do get "used" to it like anything else, and you convince yourself that you have it "figured out" and that it really does handle well, that is until you hop into your 991 and go for a spin. Believe me, as a HUGE BMW guy for many years (even now as we speak-I traded the F10 M5 and kept the F12 M6-it is parked next to my 991S) it was a very hard admission to make. But the handling of the M5/6 is truly laughable in comparison. However, as acknowledged already in this thread, they are two different cars and they are not designed to be compared in this aspect. BMW has gone the way of "a lot of luxury with a lot of straight line power in a Grand Touring car" while Porsche has simple added "a little luxury to an all around Sports Car". If you want all-around performance in a BMW you have to go with the M3 or the coming M4.
As for DCT vs. PDK, really not much difference. Fantastic rev matching in both. Both very smooth. Both shift in millisecond on hard throttle. I may give a slight edge to the PDK in over "feel", particularly on downshifts, although the difference is negligible.
So, for the choice the OP is making it's fairly simple. If you want a "sporty and fun" feel and the ability to take it on spirited drives when the wife and kids are not in the car then the C4S cab is the obvious choice. If you like "mash and go" and a few more luxuries-ie: a VERY NICE and CRAZY POWERFUL "cruiser" then the M6 is he choice.
I will tell you this definitively, realizing that it is very subjective-I miss my M5 absolutely ZERO. I MUCH prefer my 991S. The over experience far more suits me. A Porsche salesman once said to me "You drive a BMW and you wear a Porsche". At the time, having not already bought the 991, it pissed me off. Now I realize the truth in it.
I do enjoy driving the M6 every now and then (wife is the primary driver) and a lot has to do with the top coming down. I ALWAYS feel the weight and I don't love it. Don't get me wrong. It is an AWESOME car and I do like driving it. That weight just has gotten a bit out of control. As I said, this is subjective as interestingly enough, my wife, who has always loved smaller little sports cars, prefers the M6.
11-04-2013, 11:59 AM
#38
So, I think I can give a pretty good and accurate perspective here. In fact, I started a "comparison" thread on the M boards (not intending to "compare" but "certain" BMW guys turned it into that) and it turned into an almost record thread (nearly 1000 responses) until the moderators locked it. The comparison of the cars really fires up BMW people.
The issue, in my opinion, is that BMW people do not like to acknowledge the limitations of the M5/6 that are unavoidable effects of the weight of the cars. Frequently you see comments about "this car handles amazing" but it is always followed by "for a 4,400lb car". IMO there is either handling well or not handling well-period. The "for a 4,400 lb car" statement bears ZERO relevance and the M5/6 surely do not fall into the handling well category. A for raw power-100% the BMW is more exciting than the 991S. I spent a solid 2 months trying to "understand" the 991. I would go to the dealer in one of my M cars (2103 M5 or 2013 M6 cab) and always leave the Porsche dealer feeling, well, disappointed. I would jump in my M car and speed away thinking "my expectations of a Porsche were so much higher". I would literally poke fun at my M friends who either bought a 991 to add to their stable or traded their M for one. Embarassingly now, I was calling the 991 a "dog". I once even had a P car salesman take out a C4S to race me at different speeds in my M6 cab. The results were interesting: 0-60=P car wins. very low speed rolls=P car wins. Low to moderate speed rolls=M car wins. Highway rolls=M car IMMEDIATELY jumps 1-1.5 lengths (very easily) and P car hangs in the decently. So why does the P car win form a dig or from low speeds? Because BMW has NOT figured out how to put the power down. There is no such ting as Launch "Control" in the BMW. Regardless of how any BMW owner wants to argue this, it is commonly known and discussed that the only way BMW will manage this is with AWD or a complete re-work of the M diff and DME. For now, BMW has what you would call "Launch and go sideways". You can get to speed the fastest by putting the DCT in auto D3 mode and stomping on it. We all know how insanely PERFECT the LC is in the Porsche-heads and shoulders above.
As far as cornering-it is apples to sloppy joes. sorry, can't think of a better analogy. The M5/6 are VERY heavy. You do get "used" to it like anything else, and you convince yourself that you have it "figured out" and that it really does handle well, that is until you hop into your 991 and go for a spin. Believe me, as a HUGE BMW guy for many years (even now as we speak-I traded the F10 M5 and kept the F12 M6-it is parked next to my 991S) it was a very hard admission to make. But the handling of the M5/6 is truly laughable in comparison. However, as acknowledged already in this thread, they are two different cars and they are not designed to be compared in this aspect. BMW has gone the way of "a lot of luxury with a lot of straight line power in a Grand Touring car" while Porsche has simple added "a little luxury to an all around Sports Car". If you want all-around performance in a BMW you have to go with the M3 or the coming M4.
As for DCT vs. PDK, really not much difference. Fantastic rev matching in both. Both very smooth. Both shift in millisecond on hard throttle. I may give a slight edge to the PDK in over "feel", particularly on downshifts, although the difference is negligible.
So, for the choice the OP is making it's fairly simple. If you want a "sporty and fun" feel and the ability to take it on spirited drives when the wife and kids are not in the car then the C4S cab is the obvious choice. If you like "mash and go" and a few more luxuries-ie: a VERY NICE and CRAZY POWERFUL "cruiser" then the M6 is he choice.
I will tell you this definitively, realizing that it is very subjective-I miss my M5 absolutely ZERO. I MUCH prefer my 991S. The over experience far more suits me. A Porsche salesman once said to me "You drive a BMW and you wear a Porsche". At the time, having not already bought the 991, it pissed me off. Now I realize the truth in it.
I do enjoy driving the M6 every now and then (wife is the primary driver) and a lot has to do with the top coming down. I ALWAYS feel the weight and I don't love it. Don't get me wrong. It is an AWESOME car and I do like driving it. That weight just has gotten a bit out of control. As I said, this is subjective as interestingly enough, my wife, who has always loved smaller little sports cars, prefers the M6.
The issue, in my opinion, is that BMW people do not like to acknowledge the limitations of the M5/6 that are unavoidable effects of the weight of the cars. Frequently you see comments about "this car handles amazing" but it is always followed by "for a 4,400lb car". IMO there is either handling well or not handling well-period. The "for a 4,400 lb car" statement bears ZERO relevance and the M5/6 surely do not fall into the handling well category. A for raw power-100% the BMW is more exciting than the 991S. I spent a solid 2 months trying to "understand" the 991. I would go to the dealer in one of my M cars (2103 M5 or 2013 M6 cab) and always leave the Porsche dealer feeling, well, disappointed. I would jump in my M car and speed away thinking "my expectations of a Porsche were so much higher". I would literally poke fun at my M friends who either bought a 991 to add to their stable or traded their M for one. Embarassingly now, I was calling the 991 a "dog". I once even had a P car salesman take out a C4S to race me at different speeds in my M6 cab. The results were interesting: 0-60=P car wins. very low speed rolls=P car wins. Low to moderate speed rolls=M car wins. Highway rolls=M car IMMEDIATELY jumps 1-1.5 lengths (very easily) and P car hangs in the decently. So why does the P car win form a dig or from low speeds? Because BMW has NOT figured out how to put the power down. There is no such ting as Launch "Control" in the BMW. Regardless of how any BMW owner wants to argue this, it is commonly known and discussed that the only way BMW will manage this is with AWD or a complete re-work of the M diff and DME. For now, BMW has what you would call "Launch and go sideways". You can get to speed the fastest by putting the DCT in auto D3 mode and stomping on it. We all know how insanely PERFECT the LC is in the Porsche-heads and shoulders above.
As far as cornering-it is apples to sloppy joes. sorry, can't think of a better analogy. The M5/6 are VERY heavy. You do get "used" to it like anything else, and you convince yourself that you have it "figured out" and that it really does handle well, that is until you hop into your 991 and go for a spin. Believe me, as a HUGE BMW guy for many years (even now as we speak-I traded the F10 M5 and kept the F12 M6-it is parked next to my 991S) it was a very hard admission to make. But the handling of the M5/6 is truly laughable in comparison. However, as acknowledged already in this thread, they are two different cars and they are not designed to be compared in this aspect. BMW has gone the way of "a lot of luxury with a lot of straight line power in a Grand Touring car" while Porsche has simple added "a little luxury to an all around Sports Car". If you want all-around performance in a BMW you have to go with the M3 or the coming M4.
As for DCT vs. PDK, really not much difference. Fantastic rev matching in both. Both very smooth. Both shift in millisecond on hard throttle. I may give a slight edge to the PDK in over "feel", particularly on downshifts, although the difference is negligible.
So, for the choice the OP is making it's fairly simple. If you want a "sporty and fun" feel and the ability to take it on spirited drives when the wife and kids are not in the car then the C4S cab is the obvious choice. If you like "mash and go" and a few more luxuries-ie: a VERY NICE and CRAZY POWERFUL "cruiser" then the M6 is he choice.
I will tell you this definitively, realizing that it is very subjective-I miss my M5 absolutely ZERO. I MUCH prefer my 991S. The over experience far more suits me. A Porsche salesman once said to me "You drive a BMW and you wear a Porsche". At the time, having not already bought the 991, it pissed me off. Now I realize the truth in it.
I do enjoy driving the M6 every now and then (wife is the primary driver) and a lot has to do with the top coming down. I ALWAYS feel the weight and I don't love it. Don't get me wrong. It is an AWESOME car and I do like driving it. That weight just has gotten a bit out of control. As I said, this is subjective as interestingly enough, my wife, who has always loved smaller little sports cars, prefers the M6.
I couldn't agree more with this assessment. For the OP, you should take this as gospel because everyone who has thrown their two cents in doesn't currently own the two cars in question.
11-04-2013, 12:01 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
Excerpt from this Automobile Magazine test.....
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...4000_question/
2013 M3:
"The gearbox shows shades of SMG, the automated manual of the E46-chassis M3 that was phenomenal on the track and fussy in the city. Compared with its competitors, the M3's dual-clutch automatic exhibits lazier shifts in auto mode. On one occasion, we pulled away from a red light with the lurch-and-buck launch of an absolute novice driving a three-pedal transmission. Early on, we seriously wondered how far back the BMW might finish in this test."
This conclusion was just one of many different tests RE: the BMW DCT
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...4000_question/
2013 M3:
"The gearbox shows shades of SMG, the automated manual of the E46-chassis M3 that was phenomenal on the track and fussy in the city. Compared with its competitors, the M3's dual-clutch automatic exhibits lazier shifts in auto mode. On one occasion, we pulled away from a red light with the lurch-and-buck launch of an absolute novice driving a three-pedal transmission. Early on, we seriously wondered how far back the BMW might finish in this test."
This conclusion was just one of many different tests RE: the BMW DCT
11-04-2013, 12:25 PM
#40
Race Director
Anyone who compares the attributes of a M5 or an M6 to a 911 is an automotive fool. Sorry, but that has to be acknowledged here. There is absolutely no comparison between the two cars. It's like comparing a Cheetah to Wolf, their capabilities are completely different, but both are still excellent hunters. (the 911 being the Cheetah).
Now for Kosmo...First I want to say I love your quote from Barney Frank, but I really dislike what you said about the M5. Until you own something and spend time with it, you're really in no position to judge it. Getting the feel of a car does not occur in a test drive. It's like being with a women, sometimes a chemistry is cultivated and then it flourishes. Thats how I feel about my M5. Having the 911 makes me appreciate it more because it is so different and satisfies a different aspect of driving. "To each is own" applies here I presume, but the M5 is still an amazing car, unless you expect too much from it. For me, it does everything that I thought and expected it to. Comparing it to the Panny...Fair comparison. However acceleration- AWD vs. RWD?, I guarantee the M5 will persevere up top. Handling, yeah Porsche is usually the best when it comes to that. Looks- in my opinion, the M5 is better looking. Interior- I don't care for the Porsche interior. Price- GTS nicely equipped: $130,000 vs M5: $108,000
I'm not here to be a troll, but since I am in position to judge because I own the two cars the OP questioned, it puts me in a position to give a fair assessment. I hope it helped.
Now for Kosmo...First I want to say I love your quote from Barney Frank, but I really dislike what you said about the M5. Until you own something and spend time with it, you're really in no position to judge it. Getting the feel of a car does not occur in a test drive. It's like being with a women, sometimes a chemistry is cultivated and then it flourishes. Thats how I feel about my M5. Having the 911 makes me appreciate it more because it is so different and satisfies a different aspect of driving. "To each is own" applies here I presume, but the M5 is still an amazing car, unless you expect too much from it. For me, it does everything that I thought and expected it to. Comparing it to the Panny...Fair comparison. However acceleration- AWD vs. RWD?, I guarantee the M5 will persevere up top. Handling, yeah Porsche is usually the best when it comes to that. Looks- in my opinion, the M5 is better looking. Interior- I don't care for the Porsche interior. Price- GTS nicely equipped: $130,000 vs M5: $108,000
I'm not here to be a troll, but since I am in position to judge because I own the two cars the OP questioned, it puts me in a position to give a fair assessment. I hope it helped.
After 5 laps on the track I knew it wasnt for me. In short i over estimated the car. I think it would make more sense if the badge read "M7."
11-04-2013, 12:29 PM
#41
Excerpt from this Automobile Magazine test.....
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...4000_question/
2013 M3:
"The gearbox shows shades of SMG, the automated manual of the E46-chassis M3 that was phenomenal on the track and fussy in the city. Compared with its competitors, the M3's dual-clutch automatic exhibits lazier shifts in auto mode. On one occasion, we pulled away from a red light with the lurch-and-buck launch of an absolute novice driving a three-pedal transmission. Early on, we seriously wondered how far back the BMW might finish in this test."
This conclusion was just one of many different tests RE: the BMW DCT
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...4000_question/
2013 M3:
"The gearbox shows shades of SMG, the automated manual of the E46-chassis M3 that was phenomenal on the track and fussy in the city. Compared with its competitors, the M3's dual-clutch automatic exhibits lazier shifts in auto mode. On one occasion, we pulled away from a red light with the lurch-and-buck launch of an absolute novice driving a three-pedal transmission. Early on, we seriously wondered how far back the BMW might finish in this test."
This conclusion was just one of many different tests RE: the BMW DCT
Further, we are discussing the M5/6 cars and not the M3. Weight and software will impact the car/shifts as well. I have always found on-line reviews to be far less than credible and typically innately inaccurate due to the the extremely limited experience. Case in point on "experience"-reference my comments about the full 2 months it took me to fully "understand" the Porsche. I have no bias one way or the other. I own both and I do so because I like both. I am happy to point out good and bad and preferences and dislikes of both. In the case of the DCT vs. PDK it's one of those "too close to call" comparisons.
Forgive me for making the assumption that you do not also have ample seat time in the BMW M5/6 DCT if in fact you do. Again, I realize that "liking" and "best" are both subjective, however, with certainty, they are extremely similar. Once again, slight edge IMO to the PDK.
It is VERY SILLY to compare the DCT to the SMG. WHen a car review does so and claims similarities, credibility goes right out the window. You would have to fully remove the second clutch mechanism to replicate any sort of similarity. This is true across all brands. Drove the F430 with single clutch recently and it is noticeably apparent.
11-04-2013, 12:32 PM
#42
Had a buddy recently show up at BMW M Performance school in his 991. Right away the instructors says "Who brought the dang Porsche!"-lol! My buddy owns the 991 and the M5 and he also declared the cars M5/6 far too heavy for the track and acknowledged that the M3 was the most fun.
...And I feel the same way about the not having to eat a whole plate..my wife can't boil water!-hahaha!
"M7" comment is not too far off either. I love the M cars but for their purpose-GC.
11-04-2013, 12:33 PM
#43
Excerpt from this Automobile Magazine test.....
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...4000_question/
2013 M3:
"The gearbox shows shades of SMG, the automated manual of the E46-chassis M3 that was phenomenal on the track and fussy in the city. Compared with its competitors, the M3's dual-clutch automatic exhibits lazier shifts in auto mode. On one occasion, we pulled away from a red light with the lurch-and-buck launch of an absolute novice driving a three-pedal transmission. Early on, we seriously wondered how far back the BMW might finish in this test."
This conclusion was just one of many different tests RE: the BMW DCT
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...4000_question/
2013 M3:
"The gearbox shows shades of SMG, the automated manual of the E46-chassis M3 that was phenomenal on the track and fussy in the city. Compared with its competitors, the M3's dual-clutch automatic exhibits lazier shifts in auto mode. On one occasion, we pulled away from a red light with the lurch-and-buck launch of an absolute novice driving a three-pedal transmission. Early on, we seriously wondered how far back the BMW might finish in this test."
This conclusion was just one of many different tests RE: the BMW DCT
11-04-2013, 12:38 PM
#44
For the record, comparing the SMG to the DCT is like comparing Spitfire to a F-22 Raptor
Again, the M5/6 may have a ///M badge on it, but it doesn't mean it's for the track. When I bought mine, I was completely aware and content with that factor. This is why when fellow car guys bring this into play, it infuriates me. I might as well be explaining this factor to my 2 year old
Again, the M5/6 may have a ///M badge on it, but it doesn't mean it's for the track. When I bought mine, I was completely aware and content with that factor. This is why when fellow car guys bring this into play, it infuriates me. I might as well be explaining this factor to my 2 year old
11-04-2013, 12:38 PM
#45
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Take it from someone who has the 6 and is now moving to a C2S. I leased my 6 in March coming from the M3 and honestly it is what it says on the box, a "GT". Its very nice and very luxurious to drive but thats also its achillies in that it doesnt do anything particularly well. Its very comfortable and I would drive it cross country in a heart beat but its dull. The steering has no feel, and while it is certainly fast its not very engaging and theres no seat of the pants anything.
If you really want to experience for yourself test drive them back to back and you will see a stark contrast. M6 great long distance cruiser that you can drive in your sleep vs. C2S that stimulates all of senses while driving.
Bottom line it depends what you want and as pointed out before the M6 weighs in north of 4400lbs vs C2S at 3100 dont expect the M6 to be Dodge viper fast its just carrying too much weight.
If you really want to experience for yourself test drive them back to back and you will see a stark contrast. M6 great long distance cruiser that you can drive in your sleep vs. C2S that stimulates all of senses while driving.
Bottom line it depends what you want and as pointed out before the M6 weighs in north of 4400lbs vs C2S at 3100 dont expect the M6 to be Dodge viper fast its just carrying too much weight.