Configuring a new C4S
Intermediate
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
I agree with this somehow the 981's manual feels more direct and more mechanical than the 991's 7 speed.
Instructor
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
From: Castle Rock, CO
The PDK is faster at shifting and allows the driver to focus on the steering. I am new to tracking and so far in the green or blue group I am always the fastest on the track and I can tell you 99% of that is because of the PDK and the 991 model. I am focusing on the line and not worried about learning heel toe shifting.
The PDK is also obviously a lot easier to drive around as a DD in the city in lots of traffic. Having said all this some people really like the connection to the car** when they are shifting a manual transmission and there is no way they are going to be happy with a PDK no matter how efficient it is. There are times that I wish my car had a manual.
If you drove the PDK and did not see it as very efficient and a very impressive piece of engineering then you should drive it again. Put the car in sport plus and floor it thru a few gears so you feel the car slam you in the back at every shift. Then drive some twistys where the car up and down shifts a lot. If you drove it and just thought it was nice but you would prefer to row thru the gears then I think you should get manual.
** My argument against this common comment is that with a manual your connection and focus (maybe I should say my focus) is with the gear box not the car. With a PDK my focus is with the steering and all the forces that develop when you are driving a 911 at its limit in the corners. It takes a subtle balance that changes thru different parts of the turn with the brake and throttle to get the car to stick to the pavement and or oversteer and rotate in a corner. I think for most people if you add in the heel toe there is just to much going on. I am sure for the few that have mastered all this it is an extra thrill to do it all but then one cold argue even the pros are faster in a PDK.
The PDK is also obviously a lot easier to drive around as a DD in the city in lots of traffic. Having said all this some people really like the connection to the car** when they are shifting a manual transmission and there is no way they are going to be happy with a PDK no matter how efficient it is. There are times that I wish my car had a manual.
If you drove the PDK and did not see it as very efficient and a very impressive piece of engineering then you should drive it again. Put the car in sport plus and floor it thru a few gears so you feel the car slam you in the back at every shift. Then drive some twistys where the car up and down shifts a lot. If you drove it and just thought it was nice but you would prefer to row thru the gears then I think you should get manual.
** My argument against this common comment is that with a manual your connection and focus (maybe I should say my focus) is with the gear box not the car. With a PDK my focus is with the steering and all the forces that develop when you are driving a 911 at its limit in the corners. It takes a subtle balance that changes thru different parts of the turn with the brake and throttle to get the car to stick to the pavement and or oversteer and rotate in a corner. I think for most people if you add in the heel toe there is just to much going on. I am sure for the few that have mastered all this it is an extra thrill to do it all but then one cold argue even the pros are faster in a PDK.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,020
Likes: 55
From: Jupiter Island
Obviously, a car's specs are buyer specific but you asked for opinions so here goes. I would nix the PDCC, keep PCCB if you don't intend to track regularly, nix the powerkit (for the cost the gains are minimal), keep the 7MT, nix SC and obviously get Dark Blue...
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 8,237
Likes: 2,686
From: Pac NW
There is certainly room for personal preference in choosing one transmission or another, but there is also no surer sign of a poser than someone who claims that a PDK-equipped Porsche is "uninvolving."
Rennlist Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,645
Likes: 264
From: Newport Beach
I think you should order or buy what you want. The C4S and the GT3 are completely different cars as everyone knows. If you want a manual trans it's one or the other.
I can totally see where the comments are coming from about if you're going to spend that much on a "heavy" (optioned) not heavy as in weight C4S why not get a GT3. That's what I would do but if having a more comfortable ride with a hand stick is more important, do it. If you can afford one, you do not have to buy the other. Personally, I'm a fan of the PDK because it's so far ahead of everything out there for the price from an engineering and driving experience standpoint. I drive Los Angeles and while I'm a manual trans. guy at heart I became enchanted with the PDK gearbox. Just don't ever call it an automatic. lol.
Do what you want. I am waiting for my first chance to drive a 9,000 rpm PDK GT3 but that's just me. I'd sit in L.A. traffic in it all day long with the PDK.
I can totally see where the comments are coming from about if you're going to spend that much on a "heavy" (optioned) not heavy as in weight C4S why not get a GT3. That's what I would do but if having a more comfortable ride with a hand stick is more important, do it. If you can afford one, you do not have to buy the other. Personally, I'm a fan of the PDK because it's so far ahead of everything out there for the price from an engineering and driving experience standpoint. I drive Los Angeles and while I'm a manual trans. guy at heart I became enchanted with the PDK gearbox. Just don't ever call it an automatic. lol.
Do what you want. I am waiting for my first chance to drive a 9,000 rpm PDK GT3 but that's just me. I'd sit in L.A. traffic in it all day long with the PDK.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 44
From: Europe
The PDK is faster at shifting and allows the driver to focus on the steering. I am new to tracking and so far in the green or blue group I am always the fastest on the track and I can tell you 99% of that is because of the PDK and the 991 model. I am focusing on the line and not worried about learning heel toe shifting.
The PDK is also obviously a lot easier to drive around as a DD in the city in lots of traffic. Having said all this some people really like the connection to the car** when they are shifting a manual transmission and there is no way they are going to be happy with a PDK no matter how efficient it is. There are times that I wish my car had a manual.
If you drove the PDK and did not see it as very efficient and a very impressive piece of engineering then you should drive it again. Put the car in sport plus and floor it thru a few gears so you feel the car slam you in the back at every shift. Then drive some twistys where the car up and down shifts a lot. If you drove it and just thought it was nice but you would prefer to row thru the gears then I think you should get manual.
** My argument against this common comment is that with a manual your connection and focus (maybe I should say my focus) is with the gear box not the car. With a PDK my focus is with the steering and all the forces that develop when you are driving a 911 at its limit in the corners. It takes a subtle balance that changes thru different parts of the turn with the brake and throttle to get the car to stick to the pavement and or oversteer and rotate in a corner. I think for most people if you add in the heel toe there is just to much going on. I am sure for the few that have mastered all this it is an extra thrill to do it all but then one cold argue even the pros are faster in a PDK.
The PDK is also obviously a lot easier to drive around as a DD in the city in lots of traffic. Having said all this some people really like the connection to the car** when they are shifting a manual transmission and there is no way they are going to be happy with a PDK no matter how efficient it is. There are times that I wish my car had a manual.
If you drove the PDK and did not see it as very efficient and a very impressive piece of engineering then you should drive it again. Put the car in sport plus and floor it thru a few gears so you feel the car slam you in the back at every shift. Then drive some twistys where the car up and down shifts a lot. If you drove it and just thought it was nice but you would prefer to row thru the gears then I think you should get manual.
** My argument against this common comment is that with a manual your connection and focus (maybe I should say my focus) is with the gear box not the car. With a PDK my focus is with the steering and all the forces that develop when you are driving a 911 at its limit in the corners. It takes a subtle balance that changes thru different parts of the turn with the brake and throttle to get the car to stick to the pavement and or oversteer and rotate in a corner. I think for most people if you add in the heel toe there is just to much going on. I am sure for the few that have mastered all this it is an extra thrill to do it all but then one cold argue even the pros are faster in a PDK.
I made an analogy in the past, we play golf, we don't play golfswing.
Key thing is, during your test drive, really drive the car, in the twisties, at a brisk pace, and have the PDK in manual mode and sport mode, and get one with the sportdesign steering wheel with the paddles (the MF wheel with the shiftbuttons is ok for tiptronic but not for sporty PDK experience). You'll soon come to realise the MT is there as entertainment, to keep people that drive slow or on straight roads from getting bored out of there skull.
For keen, accomplished drivers, that like to drive the 991 like it is meant to be driven, PDK is the way to go.
BTW: I'm proficient at double decluthing and heel toeing. It's not the holy grail that some make it out to be. It's tiresome, it's inefficient, it's boring.
(The learning phase to get there is cool though) But trust me, hunting the grey area of car balance, controlling a little drift here and there is sooooooo much more enjoyable than rowing the gears manually ! It makes you tingle with adrenaline ! Makes you feel alive ! Especially in a 911 it is sooooo important you focus on driving correctly when at pace because the car really talks to you, rewards your correct imputs and punishes your bad inputs, a symbiosis best experienced with a PDK that allows you to become one with your car (providing you bought the right seats and have the correct driving position) !
Conclusion: Performance biased 991, only PDK !
And don't get me started on the "purists" that want a MT for involvement, but go on raving about the autoblipper in sport plus ...
Last edited by bccars; Oct 25, 2013 at 06:21 AM.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 796
Likes: 3
From: Switzerland
It is impractical, unnatural and it just doesn't work IMHO.
Besides that I think the MF steering wheel looks ugly and completely out of its place in a sportscar interior, but that is a matter of personal taste of course. (Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder)
Luckily Porsche seems to have understood the complaints there are about the steering wheels, because the Macan will be the first car that gets a new MF steering wheel, based on that from the 918, with paddles and a look that suits a sportscar. I guess we will see the same steering wheel in the 991.2 and all other facelifts from now on.
Suzy (via iOS app)
Besides that I think the MF steering wheel looks ugly and completely out of its place in a sportscar interior, but that is a matter of personal taste of course. (Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder)
Luckily Porsche seems to have understood the complaints there are about the steering wheels, because the Macan will be the first car that gets a new MF steering wheel, based on that from the 918, with paddles and a look that suits a sportscar. I guess we will see the same steering wheel in the 991.2 and all other facelifts from now on.
Suzy (via iOS app)
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Three Wheelin'
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 11
1988 3.2 Carrera---MT
1992 3.6 Carrera---MT
2009 C2S---PDK
2014 911/50---PDK
MANY other MT cars including at least 4 BMW's
Maybe it's my age but I do not miss MT at all. The PDK is just soooooooo convenient in a daily driver. And yet......it's faster than a MT any time of day. Just put your foot down and wave bye bye. Formula 1 cars have not used MT in like 15 years. Ferrari no longer even makes a MT car. IMHO MT is going the way of the dodo bird. I enjoyed (on and off the track) MT for many years but other than the sensation of shifting, the PDK does everything better. I have 2 hands on the steering wheel at all times and can concentrate on steering/braking/apexes etc. It makes ME a better driver. I'll never own a MT again. I am NOT putting down anyone with a MT transmission car. PDK is just MY preference. I'm a kid at heart and I love the best in technology. Porsche knows WAY more than me. I think they have the best engineers in the world. If they think PDK is best in the GT3 and Turbo/S then who am I to argue. MT drivers please don't flame me!
1992 3.6 Carrera---MT
2009 C2S---PDK
2014 911/50---PDK
MANY other MT cars including at least 4 BMW's
Maybe it's my age but I do not miss MT at all. The PDK is just soooooooo convenient in a daily driver. And yet......it's faster than a MT any time of day. Just put your foot down and wave bye bye. Formula 1 cars have not used MT in like 15 years. Ferrari no longer even makes a MT car. IMHO MT is going the way of the dodo bird. I enjoyed (on and off the track) MT for many years but other than the sensation of shifting, the PDK does everything better. I have 2 hands on the steering wheel at all times and can concentrate on steering/braking/apexes etc. It makes ME a better driver. I'll never own a MT again. I am NOT putting down anyone with a MT transmission car. PDK is just MY preference. I'm a kid at heart and I love the best in technology. Porsche knows WAY more than me. I think they have the best engineers in the world. If they think PDK is best in the GT3 and Turbo/S then who am I to argue. MT drivers please don't flame me!
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,242
Likes: 78
From: Merrick, Long Island NY (Jeff)
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 796
Likes: 3
From: Switzerland
The buttons are also not very common in other sportscars. Almost all systems work with paddles, so why is Porsche doing it different??
They hold on to the racing traditions (key left instead of startbutton??? Why??) so why don't they keep the racing tradition on this subject? All racing cars with a dual clutch or single clutch transmission work with paddles behind the steering wheel.
Suzy (via iOS app)
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,242
Likes: 78
From: Merrick, Long Island NY (Jeff)
To me it is... It feels completely unnatural, just like the PDK gear selector. That should work the other way around. Pull to change a gear up, push to change gear down. (They got it right on the GT3)
The buttons are also not very common in other sportscars. Almost all systems work with paddles, so why is Porsche doing it different??
They hold on to the racing traditions (key left instead of startbutton??? Why??) so why don't they keep the racing tradition on this subject? All racing cars with a dual clutch or single clutch transmission work with paddles behind the steering wheel.
Suzy (via iOS app)
The buttons are also not very common in other sportscars. Almost all systems work with paddles, so why is Porsche doing it different??
They hold on to the racing traditions (key left instead of startbutton??? Why??) so why don't they keep the racing tradition on this subject? All racing cars with a dual clutch or single clutch transmission work with paddles behind the steering wheel.
Suzy (via iOS app)
so the direction of travel of the buttons is what you think is bad? OK I can live with that explanation although I disagree, because pulling back to me means slowing down and pushing forward means speeding up. Plus I can do all my shifting with the same hand.
I have the buttons and I actually like them.
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 11
My 997.2 had the toggles. My new 911/50 has the toggles. I rarely use them but find them very easy to use. The reason I DIDN'T get the paddles is because I wanted the radio/phone controls on the steering wheel. I use them ALL the time and find reaching for the touch screen to change stations annoying. I also HAD to have a heated steering wheel. As a daily driver to me it was a no brainer. Radio controls/heating >> paddles that I almost never use. How many people actually use their toggles/paddles when not on the track. I'm a smart guy with 3 university/post-grad degrees but I think the computer is better at shifting than I am. If I was so smart at shifting I wouldn't have gotten the PDK in the first place....../shrug.
Burning Brakes
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 796
Likes: 3
From: Switzerland
so the direction of travel of the buttons is what you think is bad? OK I can live with that explanation although I disagree, because pulling back to me means slowing down and pushing forward means speeding up. Plus I can do all my shifting with the same hand.
I have the buttons and I actually like them.
I have the buttons and I actually like them.
However... I'll now take the PDK shifter as an example:
When driving inspired or even better, on a track. You get pushed forwards when braking. You obviously want to downshift while braking, so the obvious thing ti do is push the PDK selector forward, because that is the easiest motion when braking. So downshift is best forward.
The opposite applies when you are accelerating. Then you get pulled back into your seat, so the obvious movement there is pulling the PDK selector back to shift up.
This also applies when shifting with *****/paddles. When braking hard, you set yourself against the steering wheel, while with the *****, you simultanously have to pull to shift down. When accelerating you need to push a button, whilst you are getting pulled back into your seat due to the accelerating. This all feels very unnatural (at least to me it does).
On the other hand... It's good that there are options for both preferences, although I'm afraid the ***** will disappear with the facelift.
Suzy (via iOS app)
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 44
From: Europe
It is impractical, unnatural and it just doesn't work IMHO.
Besides that I think the MF steering wheel looks ugly and completely out of its place in a sportscar interior, but that is a matter of personal taste of course. (Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder)
Luckily Porsche seems to have understood the complaints there are about the steering wheels, because the Macan will be the first car that gets a new MF steering wheel, based on that from the 918, with paddles and a look that suits a sportscar. I guess we will see the same steering wheel in the 991.2 and all other facelifts from now on.
Besides that I think the MF steering wheel looks ugly and completely out of its place in a sportscar interior, but that is a matter of personal taste of course. (Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder)
Luckily Porsche seems to have understood the complaints there are about the steering wheels, because the Macan will be the first car that gets a new MF steering wheel, based on that from the 918, with paddles and a look that suits a sportscar. I guess we will see the same steering wheel in the 991.2 and all other facelifts from now on.
It looks cheap and operates counterintuitive in manual PDK mode !
I'm pretty sure Porsche knows the MF wheel is crap as it is now. I wonder if they have/had contractual obligations to still buy it from their supplier. When that obligation is past, I expect to see SD wheels with MF and paddles like Suzy says ! FINALLY !
And for the 992 (or whatever they will call the 991 & 991.2 successor), please Porsche, mount the paddles on the steering column !