Jerry991

My experience as well as my understanding from some very knowledgeable detailers is that wax does not last nearly as long as polish/sealant and should only be used over polish/sealant. Just remember that except for some older cars you are polishing or waxing clearcoat and not paint so the main objective is clarity and avoiding swirl marks. Many older cars were painted with multiple color coats and there was no clear applied so the color itself was being waxed, etc., but that is not the case today and it has not been proven to me at least that anything more than proper paint preparation can add any significant gloss or sheen to the pain that can actually be seen. The main objective is clarity.

doubleurx

Very true. Carnauba gives you great depth. Sealant gives you incredible gloss. I use P21s over the sealant in the summer. The result is awesome........of course where I am it lasts for about 3 drives

stealthboy

I use P21 and find it super-simple. Wipes on very easily and buffs off with just a couple passes of microfiber cloth.

chuck911

Wow, that is a lot of misinformation to dispel. And you say you got this from "knowledgeable" "detailers"??

A fresh coat of the very best wax can be removed washing the car just one time with a nice hot soapy bucket full of Dawn. Or it can last 6 months or more. So anybody tries to tell you how long wax will last, or that it will last longer than this that or the other thing, without inquiring as to how you use and care for your car, they aren't giving you the full story. Could be they don't know. Could be they do but the urge to make a buck is greater than their interest in sharing the truth.

Unlike waxing, which leaves behind a thin layer of wax, polishing uses a fine abrasive, that we call polish, that is completely removed at the end. Polish is a mild abrasive that when properly used will remove a very fine layer of paint. People like to say, and I've probably said this myself, that polish removes scratches. Its more accurate to say that polish removes the paint that the scratches are in. If the scratch is minor then polish can remove all the paint down to the level of the bottom of the scratch, and we say its gone. In fact we removed the paint, the scratch just happened to go with it. The difference comes in when you understand that since you are removing paint, if you keep doing this enough you will remove all the paint. We see this on older cars a lot. So, does polish "last"? No. Unlike wax that can be washed or weathered off, polish is not something that sits on top of the paint. It is an abrasive used to improve the smoothness of the paint surface. You either scratch the car up, or you don't.

In my opinion the best that can be said about "sealant" (glaze, cleaner, cleaner wax, cleaner polish, etc, etc, etc) is its an unnecessary profit padding product.

Waxing can be done at any time, provided that you are already happy with the look and condition of the paint. Remember the part above about not giving the full story? Same deal. If your car is well card for, carefully hand washed, with no scratches and you are pleased with the look, then it is perfectly fine to wax without polishing first. Or, you could look the car over, find a few light scratches and decide to polish only those areas. Perfectly fine, indeed a great idea, because remember polishing removes paint. (Please do however always clay before waxing or polishing.)

The older car paint you mention we refer to as single stage paint. However many layers or coats doesn't matter, its all pigmented. You can tell when polishing because, unlike when polishing clear-coat, the paint color will show on the polishing pad. The great thing about single stage paint is that, while the top coat is vulnerable to color loss from UV fading, polishing removes that top faded layer revealing the vibrant original color beneath.

Clear coat is paint. No idea why you would say its not. It is simply paint without pigment. Clear coats are vulnerable to the exact same weathering processes. Except, with clear coats the light goes right through the clear, fades the color, and polishing removes the clear, leaving the faded paint beneath intact and... faded. Sorry.

Both single stage and clear coat paints look a lot better with wax. Theoretically it might not matter. Assuming a perfect polish, wax will add nothing to the looks. (Protection is another matter.) Indeed, some concours guys only polish, never wax. But, in actual practice, for most of us waxing will indeed yield a much better shine. The reason is that wax is able to fill the many tiny and very fine hairline scratches that even careful polishing can leave behind.

That just leaves clarity. I've always thought that the main objective was gleam, something we attain by first removing all contaminants (wash, clay) then by carefully leveling and removing surface oxidation (polish) and finally perfect by filling in the finest hairlines with wax. Waxing will improve the look, both by filling in those hairline scratches and by protecting the paint so the look lasts longer.

draxa

Threads like this really make me miss OCBen - banned a few years ago just for being abrasive.

Ben would've stepped into this discussion with a "Now listen, guys....." and a three-page treatise on the subject of waxing, claying, polishing et al during which everyone would be offended but we all would have learned something.

We miss you Ben

kosmo

to the op, im sorry that this turned into a wax thread.
Only if we could talk about something else like Pdk vs stick or which oil to use.

LexVan

Stick.
Joe Gibbs DT40 5W40.



PS- everything you ever want to know about car detailing, if you can't find your answer here, STFU then, because it does not exist:

http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia...yperlinks.html

jlanka

oh $hit - I wonder if I'm using polish and thinking it's wax? I have to go out to the garage and check on that... Thanks for the tip.

stealthboy

Ouch! Yes, check immediately. A polish is an abrasive. A wax is a coating.

I only use a polish when I am doing paint correction - fixing swirls, minor scratches, etc. And I use a random orbital machine to work with the polish because the speed and heat are important to get the abrasive working.

You should *not* use polish as a regular maintenance item!

rpilot

@chuck911..

You make some informed points about polish vs wax, and I am sure the uninitiated will benefit. However, Zaino and some other newer polymer sealants behave the same way as wax and are NOT polish. Although Zaino will sell you polish for older cars too. Zaino, Regex and a couple of newer nanotech products whose names escape me at the moment are sealants that bond with the clearcoat. Nothing wrong with carnuba based wax if you like it, but as Jerry991 pointed, it does protect for a less time overall than wax . Also, your comment about sealant as a profit padding product makes no sense whatsoever. It is no more profit padding product than any wax. It is simply a wax alternative. Use your Griots or whatever and be happy.

mtony

Not sure if this is more misinformation, but I've always understood clay to remove contaminants and most if not all the wax or sealant on a paint finish (Someone posted that he frequently clays without following up with wax/protection). Claying unless done with extreme care will also cause marring of the paint requiring a mild polish/glaze to restore to a perfect reflectivity and should be followed by sealing and or waxing. I own and care for a national concours winning e30 M3, so I think I know what works and what doesn't, but I learn new things frequently, and understand that there are many ways to achieve great results.

Hammer911

Update: I finished claying and waxing the car last evening. No pics today though as it is snowing in Denver.
Car looks great, should have some pics tomorrow.
Regarding the difficulty of getting the (Griot's Best in Show) carnauba based wax off...yes, it is more difficult than other products but I do like the "depth" of the shine it leaves behind. Case in point - I saw a piece of fuzz on the car and reached to pick it off with my fingers, and lightly "stubbed" them by reaching too deep - lost depth perception with the amazing shine on the gloss black.

Here's a tip I developed on removing the wax, especially in some stubborn spots: Once the wax glazed, before removing with towels, I lightly misted the area with Griot's Speed Wax. The wax came off in a few passes with little pressure and the result was excellent.

Thanks for all the comments and passion among the group! I know this is a lot of work for the few minutes of perfection a black car affords, but I love every minute of it. Pics tomorrow!

rpilot

AFAIK, you are correct. I never clay without following up with another coat of the polymer. And I figure even if I am wrong there's nothing to lose.

doubleurx

@chuck

Not sure you read thoroughly above. Both Zaino, and the Menzerna sealant have no abrasives. You lumped sealants with polishes, when they are a coating just like wax. They give a more "shiny" look than carnauba which gives you more depth. Polish does do exactly what you stated, removes paint, and clear coat.

Technically clear coat is not "paint", since it lacks color. It is more closer a lacquer or varnish. Polish does work the same way, regardless.

chuck911

Misinformation, probably contributed to by the fact there are so many different clays out there. Paint cleaning clays were first used by body shops as a fast way of removing overspray. These clays are very aggressive and will leave marks. The body shops don't mind because the marks will be removed when they color sand and polish anyway.

The very best (for our purpose) clays like Griot's do not remove wax and will not leave marks at all. The clay works by gliding on a very thin film of water or detail spray. (Speed Shine and detail sprays are great because they contain lubricants, but if you know what you're doing you can use water- great time saving tip because you can clay as you rinse.) Contaminants that stick to the paint will stick up enough to become embedded in the clay as it glides past. This is why after doing an area there will be a dark ring around the edge of the clay. Its picking up dirt at the edge. If the clay was abrading or working any other way than it is, then we would expect to see buildup across the clay and especially in the middle where pressure is applied. But that doesn't happen. You can clay as often as you like. Its perfectly safe.

What else?

I didn't combine sealants and cleaner waxes because I think they're both abrasive, but because I think they're both unnecessary.

Hammer- I know just what you mean! I wrote earlier this year about a black 911 I saw at a concours where the gleam was so epically perfect you practically had to fight to make your eyes focus on it. I'd be looking at it and realize I'm seeing the sky, trees, clouds, hotel windows... anything reflected but not the actual surface of the car! I was judging that year and sadly did not judge that car but I sure took my time looking it over. They had a guy posted there with a piece of a very old soft 100% cotton T-shirt who every time a speck of dust landed would get up and remove it. You could see the speck of dust but not the paint! Just like you said.

I asked them and of course, they used Griot's.