new Porsche Cayman any day over 911
02-11-2013, 05:30 PM
#61
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Upgrade also the PDCC and the development cost to implement it within the
Cayman, would you buy then a Cayman that cost as a 911?
ops i forgot the chassis...ouch the AWD...The question is
would you prefer the 911 with a mid-engine? Then you don t like the 911 buy
an Audi R8
Cayman, would you buy then a Cayman that cost as a 911?
ops i forgot the chassis...ouch the AWD...The question is
would you prefer the 911 with a mid-engine? Then you don t like the 911 buy
an Audi R8
02-11-2013, 05:48 PM
#62
Race Director
This is an interesting thread with good comments. I will say that my preference for the 911 has nothing to do with ego or perceived status. After owning an '84 Carrerra for many years and then a '99 996 for several more, I purchased a new Boxster S in '07. it was a great car and I enjoyed it immensely but it simply didn't reach me on an emotional level the way the 911's did. So I sold it and bought my current 997.2 S with no regrets.
Obviously we all have subjective opinions on our cars, and what they mean to us. For me, a sports car is more than transportation and should touch my soul (just the car part, let's not be ridiculous
). When you walk away from it, it should make you want to turn and take another look. For whatever reason, the 911 does that for me, the Boxster/Cayman doesn't. End of story.
Obviously we all have subjective opinions on our cars, and what they mean to us. For me, a sports car is more than transportation and should touch my soul (just the car part, let's not be ridiculous
). When you walk away from it, it should make you want to turn and take another look. For whatever reason, the 911 does that for me, the Boxster/Cayman doesn't. End of story.
02-11-2013, 06:08 PM
#63
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Those of us who track a lot and pay attention to lap times may have an objective reason to prefer one car over another, but I agree that these cars are all now so good that the preference is largely subjective. In that regard, and no offense to anyone, but I do feel like the 991 is finally no longer a 911, though it's a superb car with its own kind of appeal.
02-11-2013, 06:48 PM
#64
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Actually, I wouldn't even characterize that as an ego thing. It's a way for a person with a busy life to choose their car without spending time they can't spare doing research. They ask someone they trust or they already know about Porsche's reputation. They make the reasonable assumption that the higher the price, the more effort Porsche puts into making a better car. And they're right of course.
If cars in the U$100k to U$200k range are a financial stretch, then it's natural to see buying one as an ego thing, but Porsches aren't the flash choice in this market. Almost all of us who buy them recognize Porsches as the best engineered car in the world and the Carrera is the best Porsche of this generation. When the price is a minor consideration at most, you buy the one you like. To the crowd of onlookers, a Porsche is a Porsche, and a Cayman serves the same purpose of impressing the naive as does a Carrera. The current Boxster is probably the flashiest car in the line, save the big-winged GT variants. We walked by a 997 GT3 when choosing our 997. Cindy muttered "clown car" and we went on to check out the Cayman and Carrera S waiting for us. You see the futility of blaming ego for people choosing the Carrera.
I suspect the buyers driven by ego pick an Italian supercar. In our area, the same dealers sell Maserati, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Pagani. They have their own dealerships and showrooms, but used examples of Lambo and Ferrari cycle through our Porsche showroom routinely. Both are nice cars, but the important point for ego purposes is their being less common on our streets. Buying one of those is certainly what I'd have done if I cared about such things. Maybe a Pagani.
I just want a better car, not a chrome ego-boost. Porsche was better engineered than the Italian options, and the Carrera was better than the Cayman when we tested them. End of story. We did consider a roadster, but Cindy couldn't tolerate the exposure to the elements after her stroke. After she died, I revisited that possibility, but again the Carrera was a better car, so I got the Cabrio instead of a Boxster Spyder or the new 981S.
Give it up, guys. If you want a Cayman, buy a Cayman. Don't make an ego thing of it yourselves. Complaining that Porsche's top model isn't mid-engined is a little tired isn't it? After sixty years, from the 356 to the 991, you surely realize the answer is "buy something else"?
Maybe you could drift on over to the R8 forum.
Gary
Last edited by simsgw; 02-11-2013 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Typos. Sheez.
02-11-2013, 06:55 PM
#65
Race Car
Those of us who track a lot and pay attention to lap times may have an objective reason to prefer one car over another, but I agree that these cars are all now so good that the preference is largely subjective. In that regard, and no offense to anyone, but I do feel like the 991 is finally no longer a 911, though it's a superb car with its own kind of appeal.
02-11-2013, 06:56 PM
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Those of us who track a lot and pay attention to lap times may have an objective reason to prefer one car over another, but I agree that these cars are all now so good that the preference is largely subjective. In that regard, and no offense to anyone, but I do feel like the 991 is finally no longer a 911, though it's a superb car with its own kind of appeal.
Gary
02-11-2013, 06:56 PM
#67
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Those of us who track a lot and pay attention to lap times may have an objective reason to prefer one car over another, but I agree that these cars are all now so good that the preference is largely subjective. In that regard, and no offense to anyone, but I do feel like the 991 is finally no longer a 911, though it's a superb car with its own kind of appeal.
A Masterpiece (Fifth gear review)
The best 911 ever (Evo review)
02-11-2013, 08:17 PM
#68
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I don't actually disagree that the 991 is the best 911 ever on performance, and subjectively I'm tempted to agree too. It's a superb car - there may be one in my garage at some point, maybe even this year. But again subjectively, I find the feel of the 991 is to be qualitatively quite different from all of the 911s that came before, to the extent that it begins a new category (and that's OK with me). So if I get a 991, I won't think of it as a 911, and may wind up getting an older 911 in addition to it. And for that reason, I would consider the new Cayman as an alternative to the 991 as well.
Guys, don't get bent out of shape about this 911 naming thing. Whatever you call the 991, it's a great car, and IMO that's what really matters.
Guys, don't get bent out of shape about this 911 naming thing. Whatever you call the 991, it's a great car, and IMO that's what really matters.
02-11-2013, 08:36 PM
#69
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Perhaps I can be a bit objective, as I own a 997. In terms of performance the new Cayman would be better than the 997. I came to know a local acquaintance who's teenage son purchased a Cayman for track use only. It netted out to about $115. The Cayman and 991 do "overlap" in price, so it isn't accurate to assume that this is a price point issue. Porsche is a great company that produces some of the best cars in the world. That's why we can pontificate on the finer points on one model versus the other. I respect the Cayman. However, I am still the 10 year old boy that fell in love with the 911. So, for me it is nostalgia. Cheers.
02-11-2013, 10:15 PM
#70
Race Car
A bit more on my perspective. I owned a 78SC for a very long time. It started out as "pure" 911 as one could imagine, built for a purpose with no air, no sunroof, no sound deadening and a trick engine from the factory. Over time it got "improved" with modded injection, advanced cams, older style headers and exhaust, and properly modded suspension bits. What it did at the track was perfected 911 purity. I got older and less pure and tested a Boxter S RS-60.
The truth is that 30 years of technology and a superior architecture made for a better street and track car in any dimension one would like to discuss. My competition days being behind me, I did not do the obvious suspension mods to get proper adjustability, and did not get into the latest trick R rated tires. A friend who did, with his RS-60, with no engine mods and are you ready- Tiptronic- which he learned to let shift for itself -routinely ran 4-5 seconds faster than my best semi-race 2600 lb pure 911 times. In fact, he is very good and typically ran with the GT3s. So I am a big fan of Boxter's and Cayman's.
Then I got into my 991 2CS. The power and chassis are a world better than my old 911 as one would expect given 35 years of continual development. The surprise was that it was also obviously better than the RS-60. Better stability, better turn-in, better control over varying crowns and cambers, more supple. I was astounded that some journalists thought it less interesting or involving to drive that the 997. To me it was all better and just easier to go faster.
Then at the PCNA Porsche World event, I had a chance to drive the new 981 Boxter S for several runs over a chunk of racetrack with some cones set up to guide the people into proper entry points and down some reasonable straights. It was just like getting into the 991 after the SC. The old Boxter chassis and suspension after 13 or so years had been quite revised and everything about it showed what Porsche had learned. No comparison in terms of what one measures at a racetrack, while being more secure and comfortable all the time and in particular at the limit. I could understand why the owners of prior models thought the car had been ruined, made less involving even compared to a Panamera. The power differential was nothing like that between the SC and the 991, but no matter. 315 HP DFI engine and PDK in a ~3000 lb car makes it a fast machine. Not the same fast as a 3.8 991S with and additional 60 ft lbs of torque and 85 hp, but fast enough for serious fun on the street or the track.
So I knew the 981 Cayman -essentially a Boxter hardtop with a few more hp- would be just terrific. But if what one values is the "involvement" of a harsh suspension, the bobbing of the shorter wheel base and superfluous movement of the steering wheel, it will not be a Cayman any more.
The truth is that 30 years of technology and a superior architecture made for a better street and track car in any dimension one would like to discuss. My competition days being behind me, I did not do the obvious suspension mods to get proper adjustability, and did not get into the latest trick R rated tires. A friend who did, with his RS-60, with no engine mods and are you ready- Tiptronic- which he learned to let shift for itself -routinely ran 4-5 seconds faster than my best semi-race 2600 lb pure 911 times. In fact, he is very good and typically ran with the GT3s. So I am a big fan of Boxter's and Cayman's.
Then I got into my 991 2CS. The power and chassis are a world better than my old 911 as one would expect given 35 years of continual development. The surprise was that it was also obviously better than the RS-60. Better stability, better turn-in, better control over varying crowns and cambers, more supple. I was astounded that some journalists thought it less interesting or involving to drive that the 997. To me it was all better and just easier to go faster.
Then at the PCNA Porsche World event, I had a chance to drive the new 981 Boxter S for several runs over a chunk of racetrack with some cones set up to guide the people into proper entry points and down some reasonable straights. It was just like getting into the 991 after the SC. The old Boxter chassis and suspension after 13 or so years had been quite revised and everything about it showed what Porsche had learned. No comparison in terms of what one measures at a racetrack, while being more secure and comfortable all the time and in particular at the limit. I could understand why the owners of prior models thought the car had been ruined, made less involving even compared to a Panamera. The power differential was nothing like that between the SC and the 991, but no matter. 315 HP DFI engine and PDK in a ~3000 lb car makes it a fast machine. Not the same fast as a 3.8 991S with and additional 60 ft lbs of torque and 85 hp, but fast enough for serious fun on the street or the track.
So I knew the 981 Cayman -essentially a Boxter hardtop with a few more hp- would be just terrific. But if what one values is the "involvement" of a harsh suspension, the bobbing of the shorter wheel base and superfluous movement of the steering wheel, it will not be a Cayman any more.
Last edited by chuckbdc; 02-11-2013 at 10:31 PM.
02-11-2013, 10:28 PM
#71
That's one take. Another would be that he wrote a provocative statement to promote interest in the article he wrote. And yet another would be that the 981S meets his needs better than a 991. Porsche builds cars for distinct market niches, and maybe the 981S meets the author's needs better than the 991. This of course does not mean that the 991 is inferior to 981S.
02-11-2013, 10:57 PM
#72
A bit more on my perspective. I owned a 78SC for a very long time. It started out as "pure" 911 as one could imagine, built for a purpose with no air, no sunroof, no sound deadening and a trick engine from the factory. Over time it got "improved" with modded injection, advanced cams, older style headers and exhaust, and properly modded suspension bits. What it did at the track was perfected 911 purity. I got older and less pure and tested a Boxter S RS-60.
The truth is that 30 years of technology and a superior architecture made for a better street and track car in any dimension one would like to discuss. My competition days being behind me, I did not do the obvious suspension mods to get proper adjustability, and did not get into the latest trick R rated tires. A friend who did, with his RS-60, with no engine mods and are you ready- Tiptronic- which he learned to let shift for itself -routinely ran 4-5 seconds faster than my best semi-race 2600 lb pure 911 times. In fact, he is very good and typically ran with the GT3s. So I am a big fan of Boxter's and Cayman's.
Then I got into my 991 2CS. The power and chassis are a world better than my old 911 as one would expect given 35 years of continual development. The surprise was that it was also obviously better than the RS-60. Better stability, better turn-in, better control over varying crowns and cambers, more supple. I was astounded that some journalists thought it less interesting or involving to drive that the 997. To me it was all better and just easier to go faster.
Then at the PCNA Porsche World event, I had a chance to drive the new 981 Boxter S for several runs over a chunk of racetrack with some cones set up to guide the people into proper entry points and down some reasonable straights. It was just like getting into the 991 after the SC. The old Boxter chassis and suspension after 13 or so years had been quite revised and everything about it showed what Porsche had learned. No comparison in terms of what one measures at a racetrack, while being more secure and comfortable all the time and in particular at the limit. I could understand why the owners of prior models thought the car had been ruined, made less involving even compared to a Panamera. The power differential was nothing like that between the SC and the 991, but no matter. 315 HP DFI engine and PDK in a ~3000 lb car makes it a fast machine. Not the same fast as a 3.8 991S with and additional 60 ft lbs of torque and 85 hp, but fast enough for serious fun on the street or the track.
So I knew the 981 Cayman -essentially a Boxter hardtop with a few more hp- would be just terrific. But if what one values is the "involvement" of a harsh suspension, the bobbing of the shorter wheel base and superfluous movement of the steering wheel, it will not be a Cayman any more.
The truth is that 30 years of technology and a superior architecture made for a better street and track car in any dimension one would like to discuss. My competition days being behind me, I did not do the obvious suspension mods to get proper adjustability, and did not get into the latest trick R rated tires. A friend who did, with his RS-60, with no engine mods and are you ready- Tiptronic- which he learned to let shift for itself -routinely ran 4-5 seconds faster than my best semi-race 2600 lb pure 911 times. In fact, he is very good and typically ran with the GT3s. So I am a big fan of Boxter's and Cayman's.
Then I got into my 991 2CS. The power and chassis are a world better than my old 911 as one would expect given 35 years of continual development. The surprise was that it was also obviously better than the RS-60. Better stability, better turn-in, better control over varying crowns and cambers, more supple. I was astounded that some journalists thought it less interesting or involving to drive that the 997. To me it was all better and just easier to go faster.
Then at the PCNA Porsche World event, I had a chance to drive the new 981 Boxter S for several runs over a chunk of racetrack with some cones set up to guide the people into proper entry points and down some reasonable straights. It was just like getting into the 991 after the SC. The old Boxter chassis and suspension after 13 or so years had been quite revised and everything about it showed what Porsche had learned. No comparison in terms of what one measures at a racetrack, while being more secure and comfortable all the time and in particular at the limit. I could understand why the owners of prior models thought the car had been ruined, made less involving even compared to a Panamera. The power differential was nothing like that between the SC and the 991, but no matter. 315 HP DFI engine and PDK in a ~3000 lb car makes it a fast machine. Not the same fast as a 3.8 991S with and additional 60 ft lbs of torque and 85 hp, but fast enough for serious fun on the street or the track.
So I knew the 981 Cayman -essentially a Boxter hardtop with a few more hp- would be just terrific. But if what one values is the "involvement" of a harsh suspension, the bobbing of the shorter wheel base and superfluous movement of the steering wheel, it will not be a Cayman any more.
02-11-2013, 11:42 PM
#73
Late Porkchops
Rennlist Member
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Ditto here. Silly comment actually. [Not Mike's. The earlier crack.] Certainly here on Rennlist, if not in the world overall. I'm well aware that many buyers walk into a dealership and select their car based on which model is most expensive. That's how some people get one of the GT models that really would be happier in a C2S at some level. (We had a novice show up at a DE event with a GT2!)
Actually, I wouldn't even characterize that as an ego thing. It's a way for a person with a busy life to choose their car without spending time they can't spare doing research. They ask someone they trust or they already know about Porsche's reputation. They make the reasonable assumption that the higher the price, the more effort Porsche puts into making a better car. And they're right of course.
If cars in the U$100k to U$200k range are a financial stretch, then it's natural to see buying one as an ego thing, but Porsches aren't the flash choice in this market. Almost all of us who buy them recognize Porsches as the best engineered car in the world and the Carrera is the best Porsche of this generation. When the price is a minor consideration at most, you buy the one you like. To the crowd of onlookers, a Porsche is a Porsche, and a Cayman serves the same purpose of impressing the naive as does a Carrera. The current Boxster is probably the flashiest car in the line, save the big-winged GT variants. We walked by a 997 GT3 when choosing our 997. Cindy muttered "clown car" and we went on to check out the Cayman and Carrera S waiting for us. You see the futility of blaming ego for people choosing the Carrera.
I suspect the buyers driven by ego pick an Italian supercar. In our area, the same dealers sell Maserati, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Pagani. They have their own dealerships and showrooms, but used examples of Lambo and Ferrari cycle through our Porsche showroom routinely. Both are nice cars, but the important point for ego purposes is their being less common on our streets. Buying one of those is certainly what I'd have done if I cared about such things. Maybe a Pagani.
I just want a better car, not a chrome ego-boost. Porsche was better engineered than the Italian options, and the Carrera was better than the Cayman when we tested them. End of story. We did consider a roadster, but Cindy couldn't tolerate the exposure to the elements after her stroke. After she died, I revisited that possibility, but again the Carrera was a better car, so I got the Cabrio instead of a Boxster Spyder or the new 981S.
Give it up, guys. If you want a Cayman, buy a Cayman. Don't make an ego thing of it yourselves. Complaining that Porsche's top model isn't mid-engined is a little tired isn't it? After sixty years, from the 356 to the 991, you surely realize the answer is "buy something else"?
Maybe you could drift on over to the R8 forum.
Gary
Actually, I wouldn't even characterize that as an ego thing. It's a way for a person with a busy life to choose their car without spending time they can't spare doing research. They ask someone they trust or they already know about Porsche's reputation. They make the reasonable assumption that the higher the price, the more effort Porsche puts into making a better car. And they're right of course.
If cars in the U$100k to U$200k range are a financial stretch, then it's natural to see buying one as an ego thing, but Porsches aren't the flash choice in this market. Almost all of us who buy them recognize Porsches as the best engineered car in the world and the Carrera is the best Porsche of this generation. When the price is a minor consideration at most, you buy the one you like. To the crowd of onlookers, a Porsche is a Porsche, and a Cayman serves the same purpose of impressing the naive as does a Carrera. The current Boxster is probably the flashiest car in the line, save the big-winged GT variants. We walked by a 997 GT3 when choosing our 997. Cindy muttered "clown car" and we went on to check out the Cayman and Carrera S waiting for us. You see the futility of blaming ego for people choosing the Carrera.
I suspect the buyers driven by ego pick an Italian supercar. In our area, the same dealers sell Maserati, Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Pagani. They have their own dealerships and showrooms, but used examples of Lambo and Ferrari cycle through our Porsche showroom routinely. Both are nice cars, but the important point for ego purposes is their being less common on our streets. Buying one of those is certainly what I'd have done if I cared about such things. Maybe a Pagani.
I just want a better car, not a chrome ego-boost. Porsche was better engineered than the Italian options, and the Carrera was better than the Cayman when we tested them. End of story. We did consider a roadster, but Cindy couldn't tolerate the exposure to the elements after her stroke. After she died, I revisited that possibility, but again the Carrera was a better car, so I got the Cabrio instead of a Boxster Spyder or the new 981S.
Give it up, guys. If you want a Cayman, buy a Cayman. Don't make an ego thing of it yourselves. Complaining that Porsche's top model isn't mid-engined is a little tired isn't it? After sixty years, from the 356 to the 991, you surely realize the answer is "buy something else"?
Maybe you could drift on over to the R8 forum.
Gary
02-11-2013, 11:43 PM
#74
Late Porkchops
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
A bit more on my perspective. I owned a 78SC for a very long time. It started out as "pure" 911 as one could imagine, built for a purpose with no air, no sunroof, no sound deadening and a trick engine from the factory. Over time it got "improved" with modded injection, advanced cams, older style headers and exhaust, and properly modded suspension bits. What it did at the track was perfected 911 purity. I got older and less pure and tested a Boxter S RS-60.
The truth is that 30 years of technology and a superior architecture made for a better street and track car in any dimension one would like to discuss. My competition days being behind me, I did not do the obvious suspension mods to get proper adjustability, and did not get into the latest trick R rated tires. A friend who did, with his RS-60, with no engine mods and are you ready- Tiptronic- which he learned to let shift for itself -routinely ran 4-5 seconds faster than my best semi-race 2600 lb pure 911 times. In fact, he is very good and typically ran with the GT3s. So I am a big fan of Boxter's and Cayman's.
Then I got into my 991 2CS. The power and chassis are a world better than my old 911 as one would expect given 35 years of continual development. The surprise was that it was also obviously better than the RS-60. Better stability, better turn-in, better control over varying crowns and cambers, more supple. I was astounded that some journalists thought it less interesting or involving to drive that the 997. To me it was all better and just easier to go faster.
Then at the PCNA Porsche World event, I had a chance to drive the new 981 Boxter S for several runs over a chunk of racetrack with some cones set up to guide the people into proper entry points and down some reasonable straights. It was just like getting into the 991 after the SC. The old Boxter chassis and suspension after 13 or so years had been quite revised and everything about it showed what Porsche had learned. No comparison in terms of what one measures at a racetrack, while being more secure and comfortable all the time and in particular at the limit. I could understand why the owners of prior models thought the car had been ruined, made less involving even compared to a Panamera. The power differential was nothing like that between the SC and the 991, but no matter. 315 HP DFI engine and PDK in a ~3000 lb car makes it a fast machine. Not the same fast as a 3.8 991S with and additional 60 ft lbs of torque and 85 hp, but fast enough for serious fun on the street or the track.
So I knew the 981 Cayman -essentially a Boxter hardtop with a few more hp- would be just terrific. But if what one values is the "involvement" of a harsh suspension, the bobbing of the shorter wheel base and superfluous movement of the steering wheel, it will not be a Cayman any more.
The truth is that 30 years of technology and a superior architecture made for a better street and track car in any dimension one would like to discuss. My competition days being behind me, I did not do the obvious suspension mods to get proper adjustability, and did not get into the latest trick R rated tires. A friend who did, with his RS-60, with no engine mods and are you ready- Tiptronic- which he learned to let shift for itself -routinely ran 4-5 seconds faster than my best semi-race 2600 lb pure 911 times. In fact, he is very good and typically ran with the GT3s. So I am a big fan of Boxter's and Cayman's.
Then I got into my 991 2CS. The power and chassis are a world better than my old 911 as one would expect given 35 years of continual development. The surprise was that it was also obviously better than the RS-60. Better stability, better turn-in, better control over varying crowns and cambers, more supple. I was astounded that some journalists thought it less interesting or involving to drive that the 997. To me it was all better and just easier to go faster.
Then at the PCNA Porsche World event, I had a chance to drive the new 981 Boxter S for several runs over a chunk of racetrack with some cones set up to guide the people into proper entry points and down some reasonable straights. It was just like getting into the 991 after the SC. The old Boxter chassis and suspension after 13 or so years had been quite revised and everything about it showed what Porsche had learned. No comparison in terms of what one measures at a racetrack, while being more secure and comfortable all the time and in particular at the limit. I could understand why the owners of prior models thought the car had been ruined, made less involving even compared to a Panamera. The power differential was nothing like that between the SC and the 991, but no matter. 315 HP DFI engine and PDK in a ~3000 lb car makes it a fast machine. Not the same fast as a 3.8 991S with and additional 60 ft lbs of torque and 85 hp, but fast enough for serious fun on the street or the track.
So I knew the 981 Cayman -essentially a Boxter hardtop with a few more hp- would be just terrific. But if what one values is the "involvement" of a harsh suspension, the bobbing of the shorter wheel base and superfluous movement of the steering wheel, it will not be a Cayman any more.
02-12-2013, 09:45 AM
#75
Race Car
Chuckdc - I enjoyed reading your perspective. I wonder how many current 991 owners would have enjoyed driving my 1970 911 which had cloth seats, AM radio, no cup holders, and nothing automatted. Since it was my first Porsche it will always be special to me, especially when I recall how well it handled when compared to other cars of that period.
The 991 is different of course, but deals up the same sense of getting small around you. I think the DNA (and engineering/design moxie of the manufacturer) is so strong it would seem impossible not to recognize it for a very very developed version of the earlier car.
I did not drive it, but think a lot of the same sense about dynamics might be there- after one figured out just where the hell the gears were at the end of the stalk, ran the engine up to where it made Gs with power, realized that the car would go straight despite the wheel moving around so long as you didn't white knuckle it, and that the noise behind you was not something trying to saw the motor in half!
PS your early 911 was special then and still is!