chuckbdc

Yes. And enjoys an advantage out of turns.

fast1

LOL It's called stirring the pot. Since I just ordered a 981S, it's obvious where my preferance lies, but I certainly wouldn't go as far as the author of the article did. There are lots of reasons for selecting a car for purchase, and I certainly understand why someone would prefer a 991 over a 981S . Moreover, I believe that I read somewhere that 911 owners don't cross shop Boxsters and Caymans, so the 911 will always have its legions of loyal owners.

carrerapete

I would've considered purchasing the new Cayman, but then I remembered that I was able to afford the 991S.

fast1

I test drove a 991S and it's one hell of a performance car, but equipped the way I prefer, it would sticker for around $120K. It wouldn't be prudent to be driving such an expensive car in my neck of the woods where I share the road with soccer moms who typically drive their 5K+ lb tanks, while talking on their cell phones. About a month ago one of them nearly drove my 997 off the road. She stopped and apologized and said she didn't see me since my car is so small. I think it would have helped if her attention was focussed on the road rather than on her cell phone call.

simsgw

Yeah, That's it.

spourreza

Agree. I hate these chest pounding threads. I had a cayman. Didn't hold against my 997 and the new one wont compete with 991. Tracked them all and the cayman is missing something....sorry.

kes7u

I'm always amazed that the power differences between these cars are so easily discounted, but are SO easily felt.

I had a new 2009 Cayman S, which I REALLY liked. In day to day driving, though, I always felt something was missing when I pressed down the right pedal. I test drove, and then replaced it with a CPO 2007 997S. Although 'only' 35 more horsepower, the difference felt like night and day to me. Perhaps that is a function of getting kicked in the a** by the rear engine placement.

Now, we are talking about a significantly greater difference in power when comparing the 991S to the 981S. If the Cayman owners were all adding turbos to their crocs, then this might be a different discussion. The point is that whether or not you think they should, Porsche is currently not endowing the same level of power on the Caymans that they do on the 911. This was easily noticed in comparison to my 997S, and I can only imagine that the difference is greater currently. You can then tell me to look at the price difference, but that was not the point of the article/video or this post.

simsgw

That's really the nice thing about Porsche that Detroit forgot back in the fifties on the advice of Harvard Business School grads. The idea was "you don't sell the steak, you sell the sizzle." The obvious inference was "why are we bothering with steak then? Hamburger sizzles just as loud, doesn't it?" Marketing took over the big office and the engineers had to struggle along. Model differentiation became a question of trim essentially. It took a while, about sixty years, but that approach took GM from the biggest, most successful corporation on the planet to bankruptcy and corporate welfare.

Porsche may or may not change now that they are part of a larger family, but they never have followed the HBS doctrine. When I review the models available now, each has a distinct engineering personality. I don't have to look at a badge to know which car I'm driving. Maintaining the corporate 'identity' is an issue discussed by stylists, so you can see the gaping Audi maw on every model, and so forth. Porsche does that too of course, but they also have characteristic handling traits and driver interaction. They keep an overall family character that is present in Pannies and Cayennes as well as Carreras, Caymans, and the Boxster. Then the target market for each model gives rise to specific differences. Not badge differences, but real differences in underlying handling traits and the driver's feel of the car.

Ignoring the usual trolls, who have left our 991 forum in peace for quite a while, Porsche gives each car its own personality. The Boxster feels like a roadster. Everything from the seating position to the relation between the windshield bar and the behind-cockpit rail (whatever designers call that) screams roadster. The Cayman does not. Subtle changes in position of the major elements mean it is not a closed-Boxster, but a coupe. They share major chassis elements so their handling variant is closer to each other I'm sure than either is to the 911 cousins. I haven't had occasion to drive the new 981 models, but that certainly was true with the last generation and it will be with this one. Having discussed the Cayman design with Porsche engineers at TechTactics I expect it to be more distinguished from its cousin in this generation, but it still will feel like a Cayman, not a cheap Carrera. Which is how it should be. But it still will feel like a Porsche.

I was very serious that it's nice to see people happy with the Porsche model they can afford. (Okay, sarcastic as well. But still serious.) All Porsches are fine cars, and I don't say that with a snide expression. It's just that Porsche do it right. Well, right from an engineer's point of view, not Harvard Business School. Each model has real distinctions and as you move up the price scale you get more for your money. Different people may not want to pay for those model differences, but they are there and they are real, not badge changes.

Childish whining about "why can't I get Carrera for the Cayman price?" is no different than complaining that you can't get a 918 for the price of a Boxster. The gap is just smaller. Last time I looked, you could get into a new Porsche sports car for around U$50k. From there, it's easy to see U$10k steps up through the roadsters and coupes that 'only' cost $80k or less to the 911 family that start at U$80k and go to about U$220k. The distressing lack of a quarter million dollar supercar in the Porsche line is press fluff of course. Such cars don't make money, they make reputation. Just like show cars, but not so heavy. Porsche wants to show they embrace the Green movement in Europe so they're designing a hybrid supercar and "proving their sincerity by selling it!" Well, good. Engineers get to try out wild ideas and marketing gets a halo effect. And Jay Leno fills another stall in his garage. That isn't the part of the market we're discussing.

In the useful production volumes, Porsche builds cars roughly from U$50k to U$220k. It's cute that writers fill space speculating about what the Cayman could be if Porsche didn't "hold it down." That's easy. It could be a GT2. Oh? You didn't want to pay for a GT2? Then buy a Cayman. Real engineers don't just stick prettier badges and a chrome 'Kompressor' on a car to justify a bigger price tag. They start with higher targets for performance, reliability, accommodations, target cost out the door, and what have you. Then they work to that. Each of the models we love is built to such targets.

Was the Cayman built to a price? Well, of course. Everything but the Apollo program has been built to a target price. Not many situations call for "the best we can do isn't good enough" as Apollo did. Consumer automobile design definitely isn't in that category. The typical complaint that something was "built to a price" really means the engineers were given that as essentially the only goal: "Call it a car or call it a truck, but call it cheap and go home." Or sometimes, as in Europe after World War II, an old design is resurrected and manufacturing uses whatever they can afford to put it together. We had cardboard interiors and paint so thin I polished it off my first car in two weekends. But having a price target among value targets like performance and accommodations is just routine and sound engineering practice. GM lost track of that balance. Porsche has not.

"What could the Carrera be if they didn't hold down the engineers?!?" Well, it could be a Formula One car. Why do you ask? If we engineers didn't work to price targets, along with all the other targets, then the only people who could buy our results would be governments and Bernie Ecclestone.

Very nice car, the Cayman. Damn well should be for the price of a Lexus. Every Porsche in the line-up is a damned nice car, but each one is better than the one below it in the sense of having added value for the price. We're very lucky Porsche works that way and isn't just selling the sizzle. But it does mean you get a nicer cut of meat if you pay for it. And if you prefer not to pay for it, then you don't. Only children and trolls think you get something for nothing. Buy a Cayman if it fits your pocket book and don't grouse about the value you left untouched.

You pays your money and you takes your choice. Ain't it grand?

Gary

MAHack

After several 911s, the last of which was a 997 C2S, I wanted to try something different as my DD. I was in line for a long time for the new Cayman. I have driven the 981 Boxster S and it's a great car but I wanted a coupe. I waited for the unveiling...meanwhile, every time I would visit the dealership, I would take out the 991S and realize how brilliant it is as a DD. The 991S put the biggest smile on my face of all the current offerings, mainly due to the 400 hp engine.

Finally the Cayman was unveiled and although a great car, the rear end and hatch styling just didn't do it for me. Maybe I was looking for any reason to give up my spot for the new Cayman and get the 991S. The price difference didn't matter that much and I was afraid driving the 325hp 981S I would frequently think to myself...why didn't I just get the 911? Since I couldn't imagine the reverse scenario, I cancelled my Cayman spot and ordered a Guards Red/black full leather 991S with 7mt/PSE/PASM sport/Burmester.

She will be complete on 2/14 and I know I made the right decision for me, despite all the glowing reviews that are sure to follow for the new Cayman. Bottom line...all the new Porsches are great so get the one that suits you.

chuckbdc

"Guards Red/black full leather 991S with 7mt/PSE/PASM sport/Burmester" ?

docfink

Automobile's review of the new CS wasn't exactly effusive in its praise. The author didn't certainly didn't say to exclude the 911 as a consideration when looking for a new car.

daddyscar

Here's Automobile Mag's article . . .

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...sche_cayman_s/


Here's how I interpret his conclusion: Great car but watch how you option your Cayman. It may cost as much as a 991. Just like the last Cayman, you will have to really want a Cayman to pass up a lightly optioned or used 991, used 997, or even a new or used Boxster. I barely see any 2009+ Cayman's on the road. I think pricing the Cayman over a Boxster was and continues to be a mistake especially with other Porsche's fantastic CPO models available for the same dough.

fast1

It's cute that writers fill space speculating about what the Cayman could be if Porsche didn't "hold it down."

Hi Gary - As usual your posts are well thought out and very well written. With all due respect however, I would like to challenge you on one point, and that is about holding the 981 down. During the Grand Prix of Baltimore I had the pleasure of talking to a Porsche factory rep about the 981S and 991, specifically the different HP and torque outputs out of the same 3.4 liter engine. The 991 produces 350 HP and 287 lb-ft of torque whereas the 981S produces 315 HP and 266 lb-ft of torque out of the same engine.

So I asked the factory rep the obvious question: wouldn't it have been a lot less costly for Porsche to offer the same engine for both cars? Surely there would have been less R&D and obviously far less production costs if Porsche had precisely the same engine in both cars. His answer was that yes it would have been a lot less expensive to have the same engine for both cars, but that marketing directed otherwise. He even provided me an estimate of the dollar amount that Porsche expended to offer the two different engine outputs, and it was quite significant. I can't recall the number but I do recall that it was far more than what I wiould have imagined. I thought that the differances resulted simply from a different ECU mapping and more restrictive exhaust, but apparently it's more than that, judging by the expense.

Anyway with respect to the engine, it seems that Porsche did not hesitate to spend a great deal of money to ensure that the 991 offered more HP and torque out of the same engine used in the 981S, even though it would have been far less costly to offer the identical engine in both cars.

fast1

To the best of my knowledge the Cayman is the only example of a coupe priced higher than the roadster. Porsche laughingly rationalizes the extra price but offering the coupe with an additional 5 HP. Interestingly enough the 991 cabriolet is priced about $12K more than the 991 coupe.

simsgw

I think you misunderstood my point. I am not denying it, as some do. I'm insisting on it. Of course they hold it down. The car intended for the next bracket up is a 991 3.4 Coupe. The 981 Cayman is just where it belongs in the line up, and worth every penny. That is the way you sell honestly.

You do realize, don't you, that if the Cayman were given a 350 hp engine, it would become the car that sells for $80k, right? There would be no 3.4 Coupe. The question to be decided three or four years ago when these targets were set is whether the market would buy more $80k Caymans or $80k Carreras. Obviously, they decided a lot of people like the Carrera in the base configurations and that having a Carrera for that price range is more important to the market than having a Cayman pumped up from below to fill the market slot. Not only that, I agree with the decision from a design engineering perspective. That model personality I mentioned. The personality that distinguishes Cayman from the other Porsche models is not one of gut-busting acceleration. A Cayman that hammers me with torque is not what the model tastes like to me.

Don't put too much weight on the assertions of that rep. They don't always grasp these issues themselves. The decisions get made at meetings between very senior people where the engineers present understand marketing, even if it isn't how they care to spend their working day. It doesn't cost anything to build a Cayman as it is now. It makes money. It only wastes money when you build something people don't buy. If I had to spend a few tens of millions on development to create two distinct products, my only question would be whether more people would be happy with our product line this way or some other way that required me to spend $50 million instead.

People who worry about how much they spend in business end up having nothing to spend. What you're really saying, and what your contact is saying, is that Porsche could build a 350 hp Cayman if they only were willing. Of course they could. Give them a reason, they could build an 800 hp Cayman. One of my buddies has a 600 hp Mustang and it sure isn't half as sophisticated. Porsche could do it if they chose. They simply don't have a reason.

The goal was to build a Cayman for the $70k position in the marketplace. And that project manager succeeded. I met him at TechTactics just before the LA Auto Show and he was a happy man. If people are running around saying "Wow! It's almost as good as the entry 911! I might even like it better!" then the project was a success. People who can't afford, or simply don't want to spend, the $80k for a 3.4 Carrera will be very happy to own a Cayman. People who are willing to the spend more money will be happy too: "Nice car, the Cayman. Just not quite as much car as my Carrera." The more you spend, the more you get. Honest marketing.

That's how you make money selling cars. Not trying to live on the difference in upholstery between a Pontiac and a Chevy.

Gary, who probably should confess he used to teach this stuff