Steering on C4 versus C2
01-14-2013, 04:02 PM
#17
Race Director
Well, yes, but what he says isn't what we're discussing. He just says is that "[the steering] is better. The addition of a couple of drive shafts ... just gives you something else to play against."
He's really just saying the steering feel of four-wheel drive Porsches is subtly different than it is in two-wheel drive models. His preference for it is a subjective statement, which traditionally is shared by many people, but it isn't a steering revision, just a new generation showing the traditional relationship between the C2/C2S and the C4/C4S.
Gary
He's really just saying the steering feel of four-wheel drive Porsches is subtly different than it is in two-wheel drive models. His preference for it is a subjective statement, which traditionally is shared by many people, but it isn't a steering revision, just a new generation showing the traditional relationship between the C2/C2S and the C4/C4S.
Gary
I agree completely.
01-14-2013, 05:39 PM
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Gary
01-14-2013, 08:25 PM
#21
Race Director
Gary, I hope they have a PDCC car for you to compare. I'd like to test one myself before I have to make a decision re: PDCC on a possible 991 GT3. I'm interested in your thoughts in the meantime and in any event.
01-15-2013, 12:11 AM
#22
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Mostly because I'm an old man with old-fashioned habits. We used to change the oil immediately after the first 500 or 1000 miles depending on the local wisdom. I've finished break-in by any standard, since the odometer will roll over to 5,000 miles by Friday I imagine. It's at 45 something tonight. The best I can do from an engineering perspective is say that it will give me a post-break-in baseline for future oil analyses. I'll be pulling an oil sample of course.
It always is useful to do an inspection after the first hundred hours or so of operating a vehicle of any sort. Finds anything that hasn't settled in happily doing its job. I do have two things on my squawk list, though they are minor. Well, three... but more on that last one in a moment.
First, the trunk lid is supposed to pop from passing your hand over the area from the Porsche badge to the front rim. Doesn't happen. Never did. I suspect the sensor wasn't connected or might even have been omitted on the assembly line. Not a big deal, so I haven't taken time to get it fixed so far.
Second, a slight rattle occurs in the right rear quadrant. A good guess is the cables that operate the top need to be adjusted. It's not loud or even terribly annoying, just a sign of post-manufacturing adjustment being needed.
Third... well, this is embarrassing. The plates came in weeks ago and... well, my hands are getting old and it seems I can't remove the Phillips-head screws holding the empty plate surround on the back of the car. If I don't get the plates on soon, I'll get a ticket. So I'll let the dealer's young men with their strong hands get the old plate off and install my new license plate surround with my new plates.
Gary
It always is useful to do an inspection after the first hundred hours or so of operating a vehicle of any sort. Finds anything that hasn't settled in happily doing its job. I do have two things on my squawk list, though they are minor. Well, three... but more on that last one in a moment.
First, the trunk lid is supposed to pop from passing your hand over the area from the Porsche badge to the front rim. Doesn't happen. Never did. I suspect the sensor wasn't connected or might even have been omitted on the assembly line. Not a big deal, so I haven't taken time to get it fixed so far.
Second, a slight rattle occurs in the right rear quadrant. A good guess is the cables that operate the top need to be adjusted. It's not loud or even terribly annoying, just a sign of post-manufacturing adjustment being needed.
Third... well, this is embarrassing. The plates came in weeks ago and... well, my hands are getting old and it seems I can't remove the Phillips-head screws holding the empty plate surround on the back of the car. If I don't get the plates on soon, I'll get a ticket. So I'll let the dealer's young men with their strong hands get the old plate off and install my new license plate surround with my new plates.
Gary
01-15-2013, 12:18 AM
#23
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I have been invited to drive the new GT3 late this year, and the 991 Turbo as soon as it comes in. To throw another log on the rumor fire, the unofficial word -- aka gossip -- is that the GT3 will come with PDK, and the GT3 RS will have the manual. "The other way round from the Turbos this time."
Not sure how to interpret that last one since I don't follow the turbo family, but I report it for whatever gossip is worth. I knew you'd be interested in the GT3 talk.
Gary
01-15-2013, 12:26 AM
#24
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Interested in early reports of C4 suggesting that steering has more feel than C2.
Most auto journalists impressions of the steering on C2 (for what they are worth) are based on their experience with early 2012 models. I recall reading somewhere that the steering setup has been altered on later 2012 and 2013 models. Any clarity on this would be helpful.
The C4 has about 50kg more weight than C2 and this is mostly at the front of the car so presumably this would make a difference.
Most auto journalists impressions of the steering on C2 (for what they are worth) are based on their experience with early 2012 models. I recall reading somewhere that the steering setup has been altered on later 2012 and 2013 models. Any clarity on this would be helpful.
The C4 has about 50kg more weight than C2 and this is mostly at the front of the car so presumably this would make a difference.
01-15-2013, 12:38 AM
#25
Race Director
BTW, thanks for the rumor about PDK in the 991 GT3 and the manual in the RS. I'd actually heard that before from other sources, but any gossip about the new car piques my interest.
01-15-2013, 12:52 AM
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You can see where you get used to leaving your key in your car or purse, so it can be annoying to have to dig around and find it when you can need to put groceries in the frunk. In my case, it's no big deal. I don't carry much and I have big pockets. But for a woman it's different. She is going to be very happy every time she doesn't have to worry about having her key out and ready when she returns to her car in a parking lot. Then on one trip out of four, she's going to want to open the frunk and she'll realize she can't remember which compartment of her handbag holds the key.
With this capacitive switch, so long as the key is nearby, she only needs to put her hand on the trunk and it opens. Not essential, as I say, but thoughtful, consistent design.
Gary
01-15-2013, 03:09 AM
#27
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Mostly because I'm an old man with old-fashioned habits. We used to change the oil immediately after the first 500 or 1000 miles depending on the local wisdom. I've finished break-in by any standard, since the odometer will roll over to 5,000 miles by Friday I imagine. It's at 45 something tonight. The best I can do from an engineering perspective is say that it will give me a post-break-in baseline for future oil analyses. I'll be pulling an oil sample of course.
It always is useful to do an inspection after the first hundred hours or so of operating a vehicle of any sort. Finds anything that hasn't settled in happily doing its job. I do have two things on my squawk list, though they are minor. Well, three... but more on that last one in a moment.
First, the trunk lid is supposed to pop from passing your hand over the area from the Porsche badge to the front rim. Doesn't happen. Never did. I suspect the sensor wasn't connected or might even have been omitted on the assembly line. Not a big deal, so I haven't taken time to get it fixed so far.
Second, a slight rattle occurs in the right rear quadrant. A good guess is the cables that operate the top need to be adjusted. It's not loud or even terribly annoying, just a sign of post-manufacturing adjustment being needed.
Third... well, this is embarrassing. The plates came in weeks ago and... well, my hands are getting old and it seems I can't remove the Phillips-head screws holding the empty plate surround on the back of the car. If I don't get the plates on soon, I'll get a ticket. So I'll let the dealer's young men with their strong hands get the old plate off and install my new license plate surround with my new plates.
Gary
It always is useful to do an inspection after the first hundred hours or so of operating a vehicle of any sort. Finds anything that hasn't settled in happily doing its job. I do have two things on my squawk list, though they are minor. Well, three... but more on that last one in a moment.
First, the trunk lid is supposed to pop from passing your hand over the area from the Porsche badge to the front rim. Doesn't happen. Never did. I suspect the sensor wasn't connected or might even have been omitted on the assembly line. Not a big deal, so I haven't taken time to get it fixed so far.
Second, a slight rattle occurs in the right rear quadrant. A good guess is the cables that operate the top need to be adjusted. It's not loud or even terribly annoying, just a sign of post-manufacturing adjustment being needed.
Third... well, this is embarrassing. The plates came in weeks ago and... well, my hands are getting old and it seems I can't remove the Phillips-head screws holding the empty plate surround on the back of the car. If I don't get the plates on soon, I'll get a ticket. So I'll let the dealer's young men with their strong hands get the old plate off and install my new license plate surround with my new plates.
Gary
01-15-2013, 04:48 AM
#28
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I suppose because they retire all their old men...
Seriously, a petroleum engineer tells me their filtration of particulates makes it unnecessary to do the early oil change we traditionally cherished, and the original factory fill is done with oil that is suitable for a full length of use.
Looking back with the eyes of an engineer with fifty year's experience, I'd say the biggest issues in those days were unpredictable levels of particulate build-up in the initial oil, and varnish developing in the oil and depositing on engine components because of the transient spot heating common to low-hour engines. Other issues might come to mind if I thought about it longer.
As I've said in detail, I favor break-in as an engineer, not just because of tradition. But it's true that some aspects of a break-in as we did it in the fifties aren't really necessary any more. Modern synthetic base stocks do not varnish nearly so easily as those mixed base stocks from my youth. Especially the cheap oil used for the initial factory fill in those days. Nor do the engines we break in develop the hotspots that occurred occasionally and made the varnish worse, as well as creating metallic particles that had to removed with that first load of oil before they increased the wear rate on softer components like bearings.
I'll still do the oil change because it pleases me, but I find his advice reasonable for anyone who wants to follow it, and most will I'm sure.
On the other hand, consider my aeronautical background. We spend money on lower risk areas constantly in aviation and space than are feasible for consumer products like automobiles. Oil analysis to forecast engine problems and track wear is routine, but you won't see a manufacturer recommending it for automobiles used by consumers. It just isn't practical, so they design around those long stretches of ignorance of developing issues. Practical engineering is a matter of finding the "tall pole" in each tent, in each area of design and then working around that constraint.
That doesn't mean we can't individually choose to make the problem less difficult. They've designed around the assumption that we can't be expected to do these things, like an early oil change and regular oil analyses, and that's good. But it's better if we still do them. So I do them, and I recommend them to those who have the time and other resources.
Or you can just figure I'm an old man with outdated ideas.
Gary
Seriously, a petroleum engineer tells me their filtration of particulates makes it unnecessary to do the early oil change we traditionally cherished, and the original factory fill is done with oil that is suitable for a full length of use.
Looking back with the eyes of an engineer with fifty year's experience, I'd say the biggest issues in those days were unpredictable levels of particulate build-up in the initial oil, and varnish developing in the oil and depositing on engine components because of the transient spot heating common to low-hour engines. Other issues might come to mind if I thought about it longer.
As I've said in detail, I favor break-in as an engineer, not just because of tradition. But it's true that some aspects of a break-in as we did it in the fifties aren't really necessary any more. Modern synthetic base stocks do not varnish nearly so easily as those mixed base stocks from my youth. Especially the cheap oil used for the initial factory fill in those days. Nor do the engines we break in develop the hotspots that occurred occasionally and made the varnish worse, as well as creating metallic particles that had to removed with that first load of oil before they increased the wear rate on softer components like bearings.
I'll still do the oil change because it pleases me, but I find his advice reasonable for anyone who wants to follow it, and most will I'm sure.
On the other hand, consider my aeronautical background. We spend money on lower risk areas constantly in aviation and space than are feasible for consumer products like automobiles. Oil analysis to forecast engine problems and track wear is routine, but you won't see a manufacturer recommending it for automobiles used by consumers. It just isn't practical, so they design around those long stretches of ignorance of developing issues. Practical engineering is a matter of finding the "tall pole" in each tent, in each area of design and then working around that constraint.
That doesn't mean we can't individually choose to make the problem less difficult. They've designed around the assumption that we can't be expected to do these things, like an early oil change and regular oil analyses, and that's good. But it's better if we still do them. So I do them, and I recommend them to those who have the time and other resources.
Or you can just figure I'm an old man with outdated ideas.
Gary
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AmarilloMike (05-06-2020)
01-15-2013, 05:28 AM
#29
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Friday, I'm taking my C2S in for a post-break-in inspection and oil change. Will get two minor squawks fixed and while they're doing that, I'm going to test a C4S so I can report how much real difference I find in the steering. If they have one on hand, I'll drive a PDCC car as well so I can provide the back-to-back review with a non-PDCC car that we've been looking for.
Gary
Gary
Ensure that you use the same tyre pressure when comparing - the pressure makes a pretty big difference as well - very much so on the SPASM.
Rainier
01-15-2013, 09:34 AM
#30
Race Car
+1 on the 4 car test. PDCC needs to be tested on comparable cars (PASM and SPASM) to isolate its effects. SPASM has a bunch of happy effects on handling and feel, some quite obvious, some subtle.