Has anyone ordered the Carrera S 991 IPD Plenum?
12-02-2014, 01:48 AM
#46
Rennlist Member
What would be interesting is for someone to compare both the IPD plenum and the one used by Porsche in the X51 kit.
To extract the most reliable HP & torque almost always requires a refined combination of "tuned" parts which make up the entire package. Even though the dollar per HP of the power kit seems excessive, the price is just spread out over the anticipated number of kits Porsche hoped to sell.
If it takes that much money for each kit, just imagine what kind of engineering Porsche spent on it for that combination to extract that small amount of HP. If it's like that for Porsche, how could a small aftermarket tuner possibly do better?
To extract the most reliable HP & torque almost always requires a refined combination of "tuned" parts which make up the entire package. Even though the dollar per HP of the power kit seems excessive, the price is just spread out over the anticipated number of kits Porsche hoped to sell.
If it takes that much money for each kit, just imagine what kind of engineering Porsche spent on it for that combination to extract that small amount of HP. If it's like that for Porsche, how could a small aftermarket tuner possibly do better?
12-02-2014, 04:50 AM
#47
Three Wheelin'
As far as mods on a 400 bhp porsche engine go X51 is very cheap so pretty pointless to compare than with anything. I imagine cost to Porsche is pretty minimal as there are no expensive components used in X51, just some polishing and perhaps a different part or two which need not cost that much more than standard part. Think of X51 as a standard item that Porsche chose to offer as optional. Beyond that is a different story as at the top end for any product the price/cost always increases exponentially with each degree of gain.
More so in after market as before you take parts into consideration you have additional labour costs to dismantle and re-install which porsche didn't need to do.
Economies of scale works when you don't have a big budget for legal & warranty or a massive R&D department or huge global sales & marketing costs. I imagine a small firm can compete as long as they manage to get a reasonable production/sales qty otherwise they would not survive, besides Porsche have one of the highest profit margins in the industry.
More so in after market as before you take parts into consideration you have additional labour costs to dismantle and re-install which porsche didn't need to do.
Economies of scale works when you don't have a big budget for legal & warranty or a massive R&D department or huge global sales & marketing costs. I imagine a small firm can compete as long as they manage to get a reasonable production/sales qty otherwise they would not survive, besides Porsche have one of the highest profit margins in the industry.
12-14-2014, 07:48 PM
#48
hey gang. i know i am a newly listed member here, but have been around for a while.
my take on the plenum and x51 kit is this:
there are 2 things needed to make power Air and Fuel. when you have a normally aspirated car, getting more air in is a lot more difficult than it is with forced induction. there are ways to use intake length tuning, various velocity control methods etc that you can use. you can increase efficiency (such as using good lubricants, decreasing exhaust pressure, increasing intake air flow etc) t help flow more air naturally. the best way to do this on any engine is to take a systems approach. allow for a larger air mass in the intake charge (larger plenum and airbox), increase the amount of air that CAN flow into the intake (different air filter), use camshafts that are designed with proper lift and duration for the properly ported manifold to increase port velocity and air flow, and the use a computer to adjust how much fuel should be added under whatever conditions might exist. essentially, use a new intake chamber, air filters (which often have a design not helping engine longevity, either letting in particulates too large or too many, or using coatings not compatible with sensors), a larger plenum, reworked cylinder heads, different camshafts and a proper ecu tune. this will maximize airflow and fuel flow for the air, spark timing and more, so that at each rpm and load condition, things are matched well. this is exactly what porsche does with the x51 kit. (cylinder head intake ports have been reworked and given a polished finish. The stroke of the intake camshaft has been increased and the electronic engine management adapted accordingly. The highlight of the Carrera S Powerkit is the newly developed variable resonance intake manifold with six plus one switchable valves) (source here http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...newproductpage sure, it produces more power at max, but much much more significant is that as a system, it increases the overall amount of area under the power curve plotted on an engine dyno. THAT leads to overall better response, driveability, acceleration and top speed. seems porsche does know what they are doing with the power kit. as it does a whole lot more than 'just add 30 hp'
my two cents. cheers!
my take on the plenum and x51 kit is this:
there are 2 things needed to make power Air and Fuel. when you have a normally aspirated car, getting more air in is a lot more difficult than it is with forced induction. there are ways to use intake length tuning, various velocity control methods etc that you can use. you can increase efficiency (such as using good lubricants, decreasing exhaust pressure, increasing intake air flow etc) t help flow more air naturally. the best way to do this on any engine is to take a systems approach. allow for a larger air mass in the intake charge (larger plenum and airbox), increase the amount of air that CAN flow into the intake (different air filter), use camshafts that are designed with proper lift and duration for the properly ported manifold to increase port velocity and air flow, and the use a computer to adjust how much fuel should be added under whatever conditions might exist. essentially, use a new intake chamber, air filters (which often have a design not helping engine longevity, either letting in particulates too large or too many, or using coatings not compatible with sensors), a larger plenum, reworked cylinder heads, different camshafts and a proper ecu tune. this will maximize airflow and fuel flow for the air, spark timing and more, so that at each rpm and load condition, things are matched well. this is exactly what porsche does with the x51 kit. (cylinder head intake ports have been reworked and given a polished finish. The stroke of the intake camshaft has been increased and the electronic engine management adapted accordingly. The highlight of the Carrera S Powerkit is the newly developed variable resonance intake manifold with six plus one switchable valves) (source here http://www.suncoastparts.com/product...newproductpage sure, it produces more power at max, but much much more significant is that as a system, it increases the overall amount of area under the power curve plotted on an engine dyno. THAT leads to overall better response, driveability, acceleration and top speed. seems porsche does know what they are doing with the power kit. as it does a whole lot more than 'just add 30 hp'
my two cents. cheers!
05-16-2015, 04:43 PM
#50
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All this is interesting however,
Nobody has any dyno information to validate HP or TQ gains from an IPD Plenum.
I still have yet to see an acceleration or dyno comparison (other than Porsche marketing) between a X51 and non X51 to validate a performance increase.
0.1s (per Porsche) is not much of a return.
Nobody has any dyno information to validate HP or TQ gains from an IPD Plenum.
I still have yet to see an acceleration or dyno comparison (other than Porsche marketing) between a X51 and non X51 to validate a performance increase.
0.1s (per Porsche) is not much of a return.
05-17-2015, 12:27 AM
#51
Rennlist Member
I'm waiting to see dyno evidence from IPD too! The 9a1 engine in the 991S is identical to the 997.2S, so where did the 15 extra hp come from? I will say my last 911 (997.2S) w a Sharkwerks exhaust bypass, evomsit tune, and IPD plenum, left my friends 991 C4S behind at every spot. Start, 60 to 100, and 100 to go to jail speeds ( he's an attorney too
! It was a big surprise to both of us! Both PDK cars too. The install is so costly for the 991 IPD tho, so I'm reluctant to buy one!
! It was a big surprise to both of us! Both PDK cars too. The install is so costly for the 991 IPD tho, so I'm reluctant to buy one!
05-17-2015, 08:27 AM
#52
I added IPD plenum with larger throttle body, IPE exhaust and a tune to a 987.2 Boxster S. Took it from 305 to 320 hp dynoed, and difference in feel was very noticeable. Of course impossible to say how much of this was due to plenum!
05-17-2015, 09:02 AM
#53
Race Director
Plenum: 1K for part and install around $600?
Most chip tunes are around 2K
Gets expensive for maybe 10-15 HP on a 400HP Carrera S between the two.
Not to mention potential factory warranty issues.
05-17-2015, 09:29 AM
#54
Drifting
Exactly! Bad enough paying for the questionable HP "upgrade." Then wait until you have any engine related issues and have PCNA deny the warranty claim.
05-17-2015, 09:37 AM
#55
Race Director
I'm not about to throw my CPO warranty under the bus. We've all heard the horror stories having them cover legit warranty claims as it is. Throw a chip/software tune in there with an engine mod and good luck.
05-17-2015, 11:36 AM
#56
Car was a long way out of warranty when I did it. Total spend on everything was about £4k, but it made an extraordinary difference and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. My 991 GTS doesn't feel like it needs anything additional at the moment though
05-17-2015, 12:06 PM
#57
Drifting
There is zero chance that a plenum can void a warranty.
In terms of added power, we did quarter mile runs with and without the plenum, same conditions, car with plenum trapped 5mph more. Personal choice if that is worth $1K obviously.
05-17-2015, 12:29 PM
#58
Race Director
Install takes 15 minutes... if you pay that you are getting ripped off.
There is zero chance that a plenum can void a warranty.
In terms of added power, we did quarter mile runs with and without the plenum, same conditions, car with plenum trapped 5mph more. Personal choice if that is worth $1K obviously.
There is zero chance that a plenum can void a warranty.
In terms of added power, we did quarter mile runs with and without the plenum, same conditions, car with plenum trapped 5mph more. Personal choice if that is worth $1K obviously.
Bumper needs to come off correct? Fans come off? Once that happens, how much more work is involved? I agree, the Plenum alone should never cause warranty issues. I'm more concerned with flashes.
I've considered doing only the plenum in the past. I believe the GTS plenum is similar to the IPD? The GTS does have a different one than the S model.
05-17-2015, 12:36 PM
#59
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This is why I ordered my car with the PowerKit. So I wouldn't have been tempted to try and chase 10 HP here and another 15 HP there.
What I have is:
Proven
Warranted
Porsche's
Integrated ( meaning, both power and proper extra cooling)
No silly CELs or such
What I have is:
Proven
Warranted
Porsche's
Integrated ( meaning, both power and proper extra cooling)
No silly CELs or such
05-17-2015, 12:49 PM
#60
Race Director
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/06/four-hundred-and-thirty-the-hard-way-porsche-introduces-the-991-powerkit/
Hilarious!
"The Powerkit, which has yet to receive the usual (and strangely evocative) X50 or X51 designation, bumps the 911 Carrera S from 400 to 430 horsepower courtesy of different cylinder heads and cams, a redesigned intake, some additional cooling, and an ECU tune, plus Sport Chrono. There’s probably under a thousand dollars’ worth of genuine cost involved in the Powerkit. Anybody who thinks the Powerkit will cost the customer a thousand bucks, or even three times that, probably just got done sucking twelve lungfuls’ worth of smoke out of a five-foot-tall homemade bong which was nicknamed “I, Claudius” by that one guy in the third-floor loft who is theoretically a member of the fraternity but nobody remembers seeing him pledge.
Once upon a time, Porsche would have put the Powerkit on all 2013 Carrera S cars and been done with it. No longer. Now it’s another monstrously profitable rung in the prestige ladder."
http://www.porsche.com/middle-east/powerkit-911-carrera-s/
Hilarious!
"The Powerkit, which has yet to receive the usual (and strangely evocative) X50 or X51 designation, bumps the 911 Carrera S from 400 to 430 horsepower courtesy of different cylinder heads and cams, a redesigned intake, some additional cooling, and an ECU tune, plus Sport Chrono. There’s probably under a thousand dollars’ worth of genuine cost involved in the Powerkit. Anybody who thinks the Powerkit will cost the customer a thousand bucks, or even three times that, probably just got done sucking twelve lungfuls’ worth of smoke out of a five-foot-tall homemade bong which was nicknamed “I, Claudius” by that one guy in the third-floor loft who is theoretically a member of the fraternity but nobody remembers seeing him pledge.
Once upon a time, Porsche would have put the Powerkit on all 2013 Carrera S cars and been done with it. No longer. Now it’s another monstrously profitable rung in the prestige ladder."
http://www.porsche.com/middle-east/powerkit-911-carrera-s/
