ADias

simsgw

I am reminded of a fellow grad from our school, Tony, who demonstrated how easily she could convince people they 'remembered' something she invented. The problems of designing good electric steering assist are real, but not more difficult to resolve than the problems of hydraulic steering when it was introduced. I drove 991's back to back with 997's and do not agree with the "loss of feel" so many attribute to the new steering. In fact, I think it is very much a case of created expectations appearing in subjective impressions.

I realize your impression is different, but that's what subjective means of course: a matter of taste. I believe that if we ran blind comparisons, the new steering would be preferred by as many enthusiast drivers as prefer the hydraulic steering assist of the 997. I won't assert that more people would like the 991 steering, but I do say it's quite possible because the differences are subtle enough to be completely a matter of taste, not better or worse, even when judged by very experienced drivers like ourselves.

Before I ordered my 991, I reviewed the design documents (at least those that Porsche have released) and concluded their approach had no obstacles to achieving the excellent feel Porsche is famous for providing. The only question was their talent in executing the approach. Surely, it surprises no one to say Porsche designers have the talent, and in this case management seem to have been sensitive enough to the marketing risk to give their engineers the budget -- both in development and in manufacturing share -- to deliver a design that is Porsche worthy.

I like it. Is it cynical to suggest that reviewer would like it better if they had offered him one? Probably, so I won't say that, but I will suggest close listening to his last minute of that video.

Gary

ADias

Gary: I hope you think twice about setting up a 997 vs 991 blindfolded steering test.

The test video is brand new and I posted it for its full content. E-steering is just a footnote.

simsgw

I'm sure you'll agree with my other objection to his ... objectivity has to be the word, I suppose. He panders to the folks who might want a Porsche -- but can't afford a 991 -- by telling them how very good the 981 is and they aren't missing anything. I've tested them also, and he's right that it's good, but the Boxster ain't no Carrera.

Gary

ADias

That is not my reading. The reviewer raves about the 991.

I cannot agree when you say that those who have reservations regarding the 991, can't afford it. Sour grapes for some... sure that can happen with any product, but not for all. Heck no! There are plenty of long time Porschephiles who are critical of the 991 and affordability was never an issue in their mind. I did not post this video to bash the 991, but since this point was raised I restate my position on the new car. I think the 991 is a better performer than the 997 and a design with broader appeal. I do know however that it is an inflection point on the 11 evolution. Some of us - and yes, even those who can easily afford a 991 - value other aspects of this iconic car, aspects beyond raw performance, which have been changed forever. What changed is well documented and I have posted about it long ago.

w00tPORSCHE

Gary it will be three years in a couple of weeks since I bought my first Porsche. I am not a driving expert by any means but in my opinion the differences between the two steerings are not subtle. The e-steering is precise but isolates the road feel and at slow speeds very much lightens up just liike my Cayenne's steering. Now how much this interferes with the overall enjoyment of the car is a different story. So even to a novice like me the difference is not subtle.

solomonschris

I thought the test was pretty fair, as far as it went. I don't agree about the steering, but I sold my 997.2 over two years ago so an accurate comparison is beyond me. I just don't have any issues about steering. My only criticism is when he says the 991 isn't as exciting as the 997. The original 911 was less exciting than the 356. They extended the wheelbase and cranked in under steer over ensuring model years and were less exciting. My first 993 was a whole lot less exciting than my 930 and my 997 was less exciting than my 993 tt. I'm with those that think of this as progress and the 991, to me at least, represents an enormous amount of progress compared to the previous model, a great car in its own right.

simsgw

We don't need to consider the low speed lightness because it's an option. My 997.2 did that also. Bothers some people certainly, but the low-speed boost is independent of the question of electric versus hydraulic steering assist. As for the steering overall, quite possibly I don't detect the loss of feel others complain of because I spent the ten years from 1999 to 2009 driving a gen-two NSX. They have electric assist to the best of my knowledge, so I'm probably used to the differences in feel.

I don't argue with others who don't like that feel. I just say I personally prefer it. Not a great deal, you understand, just enough to admit to it. Another point, to be fair. The 997 was my first Porsche despite being in love with them since the sixties. People who learned on early Porsches will have felt that feel changing over the years and consciously or unconsciously they compare each new model to the traditional Porsche feel they fell in love with originally. Not to mention, Tony's skepticism notwithstanding, I really suspect that in a double-blind comparison, less than a third of drivers could even pick out which car is which if they drove a hydraulically assisted 997 and then drove one of the 997 'mules' fitted with the new steering system. In other words, I really think most of the difference we feel -- and I am an expert driver -- is related to the chassis differences more than the steering assist technology.

For me, I bought the 997 and I did love it, but I was coming from another car acknowledged to have wonderful steering feel. The differences were just differences to me. In the same way, the differences between a 997 and a 991 are differences, not the degrading of a standard I'd learned on the early 911 models. To me, the 991 is just a great car on its own merits, not a lesser or greater alternative to the 997 and its forebears. Does that make sense?

I just mean that after an hour's test drive, I loved the feel of the new model enough to sit down and order one that ended up costing sixty grand more than my previous Porsche. I'm not talking theoretical road test language here. This one I paid cash for, so you can believe my opinions are carefully considered and sincere.

Incidentally, I just realized that in two weeks it will three years for me as well since we bought that other Porsche: 21 Nov 2009. We must have walked out of our dealers on nearly the same day.

Great buy I never regretted. That 997 convinced me Porsches were everything I always dreamed they would be. I just like the 991 even better. Call me a barbarian, but I do.

Gary

simsgw

Certainly not for all, Tony. I never said that, and didn't mean to imply it. The ones I think of that way are the horde of internet-based car reviewers and the occasional owner of a 997.1 who is still waiting for the DFI engines to fail to justify his prognostications for the last three years. Here in the 991 forum, and for most of the 997 owners, we're talking among buyers and people quite able to buy one if they haven't already. You and I are perfect examples. Both of us can afford any Porsche we like, we just like different models. Sour grapes is not a factor in this disagreement between serious Porsche owners. But do replay that reviewer's comment at 8:00 of the video for an example. "I can't consider this review complete until Porsche let me have a 991 with a 7-speed manual... etc" Then go back and listen to his remarks about the Boxster versus the 991 at 7:30. Give me a break. "The Boxster is more exciting on public roads." I did a road test on the Boxster Spyder and I test drove the 981S before making my own decision. He's full of crap.

Lovely cars, both of them, and they don't need any stupid comparisons to the Carrera to justify their existence. But they are not at all the same experience. If anything, they are more bland on public roads than the Carreras, but that's a comparison between two different types of Porsche, both of which hover around the peak of automobile design. He does himself a discredit by pandering to the people who really can't afford the six-digit prices of Carreras in this generation and want reassurance that "you're not missing anything." They are.

I agree with you and always have about the change in direction at Porsche. It's just that my experience of Porsche is shorter than yours. Admiring them for fifty years is not the same as driving the models as they were introduced.

I'm only comparing a 991 to other sports cars, not to a tradition I've shared for as long as you have. I love the feel of an early 911, and I certainly understand why the fading of that design gestalt is a bad thing for longtime Porsche fans. We both have the engineering grasp of why those traits are fading away and it is inevitable. We aren't debating that either, and I might yet buy a old 912 just to enjoy that driving spirit occasionally.

It's just that for my daily driver, the absolute quality of my ride has to dominate my decision, and the 991 is a better sports car than the 997 if we leave out the question of which better matches the inspired nature of the first 911's.

Gary

LastMezger

There ya go. Happy to help.

clutchplate

I no longer have my 997 or my Lotus but am driving a 981. After my first extended spirited drive, I can say that the new steering on that car feels numb, and most reviewers said it was less of an issue on the Boxster.

On the 997, I could feel the road. With my Lotus Elise, I could feel the road and the geometry of the suspension working. Can't feel either in the 981.

The 991 reviewer mentioned making hydraulic steering an option. Knowing what I do now, I would have opted for it had it been available.

Noah Fect

Question -- why is it important to "feel the road" through the steering wheel? If the car is looking for an excuse to send you spinning into the weeds, then maybe that feedback is important. But if the chassis and handling are otherwise competent, is it still useful to give the driver an intimate acquaintance with everything from pebbles to potholes? If so, why?

chuckbdc

You might have been disappointed. The general feel would be very much as it is with the electric motor moving the steering arms rather than the hydraulics. Porsche yet again dialed out the old style feedback mostly with geometry and pickup location changes to take advantage of the huge advantage of a longer wheelbase and changed relative location of the mass of the engine and trans. I can recall how 911s gradually were converted from pretty strange-handling oddities (with solutions like lead weights added to front bumpers by the factory) to world beaters - largely via structural mods and suspension engineering advances.

To get some perspective on what suspension engineering can do watch the following:

Detroit Shooter

That is very interesting. Quite a paradigm shift. I wonder if it will prove out over time?

simsgw

That actually is a very interesting question with no obvious answer. Or rather, we know part of the answer but it raises a bigger question. The part we know: We control machines by extending our body sense, whether the 'machine' is a classical device like a hammer or lever, or an F-35 fighter aircraft. That human ability is not perhaps unique in the animal kingdom but it certainly is better developed in us than any other creature. The 'feel' of a car is essential to that extension of our physical self image. Learning and accepting the feel of a particular tool, a particular car, is how we do that trick.

The bigger question is a stumper: What the hell is feel? I can write ten paragraphs about 'feel', or ten chapters, but until somebody can read what I say and pick out cars with feel from cars without, we don't have a useful definition.

A group at Stanford is addressing the question. I don't believe they have yet published even a preliminary paper describing their methodology, but I've heard it's something about analyzing the dynamics of universally acclaimed cars like the Lotus Elan and comparing that not to totally numb sedans, but to other cars that provide a lot of feedback of various sorts, but still are decried for their poor 'feel'.

Obviously, what we enthusiasts call 'feel' is not merely direct mechanical transmission of the road surface and the suspension movements. It is more ... nope. No point writing those ten paragraphs. We'll wait and see what the professor finds.

Gary