Xpost: C&D drives the 991
06-30-2011, 02:07 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
I have a lot of faith in AP and his vision for the GT cars @ Porsche, I hold my breath to see what he comes up with for the 991 that will make it 'better' than the 997s ...
it will be interesting to see what defines the 991 as "better" than the 997 cars in general; I'm seeing more internal space, redone dash etc, wider differential between the 3.8S and 3.4 models (with the 3.4 getting closer to the Boxster/Cayman) ... maybe a bit lighter, more economical ... but no major incursion into the 400-500 bhp range which is the territory of the GTs ...
The 991 Cup/R/RSR car will be the car to watch for hints ... when will we see the 9A1 motorsport powerplant???
06-30-2011, 02:39 PM
#63
Rennlist Member
porsche always shares it's parts among the different models. I have a feeling the interior will be similar if not exactly the same as the panamera. the lights will be the same as the boxster and cayman.
06-30-2011, 09:28 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: sydney
Posts: 6,222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yes, platform sharing is the business model, at the great expense of the 911's individuality.
the 911 is becoming too sanitised. like larry said, we have faith in ap to deliver. let's hope he can overcome market forces.
the 911 is becoming too sanitised. like larry said, we have faith in ap to deliver. let's hope he can overcome market forces.
07-01-2011, 07:07 PM
#65
Three Wheelin'
They have a great parts-bin to work with. It's their mixing and matching of those parts that drive me crazy.
All the silly stuff that is defined as 'weight saving' (delete cupholder, radio & A/C, fabric door pulls, etc), yet still have to get heavier (LED) lamps, lighted vanity mirror sun visors and electric gas cover releases.
The Panamera interior (corporate jet?) works for me on that car, but looks terrible on a sports car - maybe that's their point in putting it on 991, signifying its transition to GT car?
All the silly stuff that is defined as 'weight saving' (delete cupholder, radio & A/C, fabric door pulls, etc), yet still have to get heavier (LED) lamps, lighted vanity mirror sun visors and electric gas cover releases.
The Panamera interior (corporate jet?) works for me on that car, but looks terrible on a sports car - maybe that's their point in putting it on 991, signifying its transition to GT car?
07-01-2011, 07:14 PM
#66
Admin
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Back in February 2011, in South Africa, Top Gear climbed into a car that looked very much like a Porsche 911, but such was the secrecy we can only talk about it now.
A 911, but not as we know it. Under the tape and mesh lights covers and false turbo-look side vents, it's running all-new body and chassis. But then when did a new 911 ever look much different from the old? Not since ever.
It even sounded the same: again, no surprise given its flat-six isn’t vastly modified from what today’s retiring 911s have.
We’ll have the full story in next month’s Top Gear magazine, but for now, here are some of our impressions of our time in Porsche’s prototype 991, only the third new 911 design in the car’s 48 year history. It's going to be formally unveiled at the Frankfurt show in September.
First, the big surprise: it felt less rear-engined. Less 911-ish, more Cayman-like. Because, in a way, it is. Of course, the engine’s where it always was, hanging out the back. But the rear wheels have moved 70mm back to meet it, reducing its leverage over the rest of the car. So the mass of that engine has less see-sawing effect when you go over crests or dips. If those events coincide with a corner, there's less corkscrewing body movement.
The new shell also has its front wheels further forward, and a more sloping windscreen centreline. So it's roomier and more aerodynamic. But the screen pillars are still fairly upright to make the car as easy to see out of as all 911s are, and most other supercars defiantly aren’t.
Another fundamental change: for the sake of fuel economy, the steering is now electrically powered. Potentially dismaying news, given the dishearteningly remote systems used elsewhere, but August Achleitner, boss of the 911 line and our driver for the day, is insistent it will offer less interference on straights but the same feel as the old car in bends. We shall see.
Though the longer wheelbase gives a little more cabin room, the overhangs are shorter, so overall length doesn't rise much. And it's no wider. Still a compact, useable, glassy car. Good.
They moved the wheels by changing the gearbox – the new manual is a version of the current three-shaft PDK box, and this has its driveshaft flanges further back than the old manual. Obviously in converting the PDK to a manual, they won’t have blocked off any of its seven speeds. Prizes for naming any other seven-speed manual? (Trucks and tractors not allowed.)
But the new platform isn’t just about moving the wheelbase relative to the weight, it’s also about actually cutting weight. Aluminium is used for the floor, the main structure front and rear and most of the external panels. The rear wing and inner and outer bodysides are steel and so is the front crash structure. The new shell and other weight improvements shave somewhere between 30-40kg out of a base 911 Carrera.
If they’d left it as all-steel, it would have put on weight, not lost it. Maybe by as much as 60kg heavier than before, because it’s longer and has more kit and its standard wheels have gone up to 19-inch.
Performance numbers aren’t final yet, but in the Porsche way they’ll all be a sliver better than the cars they sell now. For economy the base car drops to a 3.4-litre from a 3.6, but it’s still very slightly more powerful than it was at 350bhp – 20bhp more than a Cayman R’s 3.4 because it has its own cylinder heads and revs higher.
The Carrera S still has a 3.8-litre, but now revving up to 7800 because of new injectors, camshafts and their drive. That means 400bhp.
And economy rises on all. Over recent history Porsche has always managed at least a 10-percent improvement for each new model. The engineers don't shake their heads when you suggest they've done the same this time. That would put the 3.4 Carrera PDK at about 33mpg and roughly 200g/km. That’s ruddy unbelievable for a GT that’ll do 0-60 in the mid-fours.
Style-wise, the full drum-roll debut is at the Frankfurt show in September – to make our prototype resemble 997s the car was well-padded with matte-black plastic wraps to dull the curves, plus bra and pants front and rear. But you can see the curvier line to the top of the rear wings, and the way the rear window sits slightly recessed in the bodywork. Inside the cabin uses lots of Panamera parts, but it doesn’t feel like a saloon in here. Just a sports car with shedloads of buttons for all the optional equipment.
All the pictures of the new Porsche 911 are here:http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/new...res-2011-01-07
For more, you’ll have to wait for the full story in the next Top Gear magazine (out Wednesday July 13). And then once again, when we actually drive it. But do let us know your initial thoughts in the meantime…
link:http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/n...-driven-review
A 911, but not as we know it. Under the tape and mesh lights covers and false turbo-look side vents, it's running all-new body and chassis. But then when did a new 911 ever look much different from the old? Not since ever.
It even sounded the same: again, no surprise given its flat-six isn’t vastly modified from what today’s retiring 911s have.
We’ll have the full story in next month’s Top Gear magazine, but for now, here are some of our impressions of our time in Porsche’s prototype 991, only the third new 911 design in the car’s 48 year history. It's going to be formally unveiled at the Frankfurt show in September.
First, the big surprise: it felt less rear-engined. Less 911-ish, more Cayman-like. Because, in a way, it is. Of course, the engine’s where it always was, hanging out the back. But the rear wheels have moved 70mm back to meet it, reducing its leverage over the rest of the car. So the mass of that engine has less see-sawing effect when you go over crests or dips. If those events coincide with a corner, there's less corkscrewing body movement.
The new shell also has its front wheels further forward, and a more sloping windscreen centreline. So it's roomier and more aerodynamic. But the screen pillars are still fairly upright to make the car as easy to see out of as all 911s are, and most other supercars defiantly aren’t.
Another fundamental change: for the sake of fuel economy, the steering is now electrically powered. Potentially dismaying news, given the dishearteningly remote systems used elsewhere, but August Achleitner, boss of the 911 line and our driver for the day, is insistent it will offer less interference on straights but the same feel as the old car in bends. We shall see.
Though the longer wheelbase gives a little more cabin room, the overhangs are shorter, so overall length doesn't rise much. And it's no wider. Still a compact, useable, glassy car. Good.
They moved the wheels by changing the gearbox – the new manual is a version of the current three-shaft PDK box, and this has its driveshaft flanges further back than the old manual. Obviously in converting the PDK to a manual, they won’t have blocked off any of its seven speeds. Prizes for naming any other seven-speed manual? (Trucks and tractors not allowed.)
But the new platform isn’t just about moving the wheelbase relative to the weight, it’s also about actually cutting weight. Aluminium is used for the floor, the main structure front and rear and most of the external panels. The rear wing and inner and outer bodysides are steel and so is the front crash structure. The new shell and other weight improvements shave somewhere between 30-40kg out of a base 911 Carrera.
If they’d left it as all-steel, it would have put on weight, not lost it. Maybe by as much as 60kg heavier than before, because it’s longer and has more kit and its standard wheels have gone up to 19-inch.
Performance numbers aren’t final yet, but in the Porsche way they’ll all be a sliver better than the cars they sell now. For economy the base car drops to a 3.4-litre from a 3.6, but it’s still very slightly more powerful than it was at 350bhp – 20bhp more than a Cayman R’s 3.4 because it has its own cylinder heads and revs higher.
The Carrera S still has a 3.8-litre, but now revving up to 7800 because of new injectors, camshafts and their drive. That means 400bhp.
And economy rises on all. Over recent history Porsche has always managed at least a 10-percent improvement for each new model. The engineers don't shake their heads when you suggest they've done the same this time. That would put the 3.4 Carrera PDK at about 33mpg and roughly 200g/km. That’s ruddy unbelievable for a GT that’ll do 0-60 in the mid-fours.
Style-wise, the full drum-roll debut is at the Frankfurt show in September – to make our prototype resemble 997s the car was well-padded with matte-black plastic wraps to dull the curves, plus bra and pants front and rear. But you can see the curvier line to the top of the rear wings, and the way the rear window sits slightly recessed in the bodywork. Inside the cabin uses lots of Panamera parts, but it doesn’t feel like a saloon in here. Just a sports car with shedloads of buttons for all the optional equipment.
All the pictures of the new Porsche 911 are here:http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/new...res-2011-01-07
For more, you’ll have to wait for the full story in the next Top Gear magazine (out Wednesday July 13). And then once again, when we actually drive it. But do let us know your initial thoughts in the meantime…
link:http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/n...-driven-review
07-02-2011, 09:10 AM
#68
Rennlist Member
We will see how it looks when introduced. The plain C2 997 does not look all that hot either to me.
Not buying Porsche for looks, although I like the 997 GT3 and RS design more then any other Porsche.
Maybe the new engine will be dry sumped and they can still strip all the do da's out of it.
The shell seems lighter and they will build CUP cars righ? So there's hope..
A 7 speed manual (7 being the new 6) with the 4.2+L 550HP, 350lb torque, a real diff in a lighter car, maybe the track option in a box option (The not DOT allowed stuff) and we are good to go.
Not buying Porsche for looks, although I like the 997 GT3 and RS design more then any other Porsche.
Maybe the new engine will be dry sumped and they can still strip all the do da's out of it.
The shell seems lighter and they will build CUP cars righ? So there's hope..
A 7 speed manual (7 being the new 6) with the 4.2+L 550HP, 350lb torque, a real diff in a lighter car, maybe the track option in a box option (The not DOT allowed stuff) and we are good to go.
07-02-2011, 10:14 AM
#69
Newbies Hospitality Director
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Posts: 18,085
Likes: 0
Received 32 Likes
on
32 Posts
That trapizoid-triangular-looking thing they hung on the door looks like a small pet carrier. The handles on it make it easy to carry. It allows you to go straight from the airplane to the car and re-hang it on the door. 
07-02-2011, 11:56 AM
#70
Back in February 2011, in South Africa, Top Gear climbed into a car that looked very much like a Porsche 911, but such was the secrecy we can only talk about it now.
A 911, but not as we know it. Under the tape and mesh lights covers and false turbo-look side vents, it's running all-new body and chassis. But then when did a new 911 ever look much different from the old? Not since ever.
It even sounded the same: again, no surprise given its flat-six isn’t vastly modified from what today’s retiring 911s have.
We’ll have the full story in next month’s Top Gear magazine, but for now, here are some of our impressions of our time in Porsche’s prototype 991, only the third new 911 design in the car’s 48 year history. It's going to be formally unveiled at the Frankfurt show in September.
First, the big surprise: it felt less rear-engined. Less 911-ish, more Cayman-like. Because, in a way, it is. Of course, the engine’s where it always was, hanging out the back. But the rear wheels have moved 70mm back to meet it, reducing its leverage over the rest of the car. So the mass of that engine has less see-sawing effect when you go over crests or dips. If those events coincide with a corner, there's less corkscrewing body movement.
The new shell also has its front wheels further forward, and a more sloping windscreen centreline. So it's roomier and more aerodynamic. But the screen pillars are still fairly upright to make the car as easy to see out of as all 911s are, and most other supercars defiantly aren’t.
Another fundamental change: for the sake of fuel economy, the steering is now electrically powered. Potentially dismaying news, given the dishearteningly remote systems used elsewhere, but August Achleitner, boss of the 911 line and our driver for the day, is insistent it will offer less interference on straights but the same feel as the old car in bends. We shall see.
Though the longer wheelbase gives a little more cabin room, the overhangs are shorter, so overall length doesn't rise much. And it's no wider. Still a compact, useable, glassy car. Good.
They moved the wheels by changing the gearbox – the new manual is a version of the current three-shaft PDK box, and this has its driveshaft flanges further back than the old manual. Obviously in converting the PDK to a manual, they won’t have blocked off any of its seven speeds. Prizes for naming any other seven-speed manual? (Trucks and tractors not allowed.)
But the new platform isn’t just about moving the wheelbase relative to the weight, it’s also about actually cutting weight. Aluminium is used for the floor, the main structure front and rear and most of the external panels. The rear wing and inner and outer bodysides are steel and so is the front crash structure. The new shell and other weight improvements shave somewhere between 30-40kg out of a base 911 Carrera.
If they’d left it as all-steel, it would have put on weight, not lost it. Maybe by as much as 60kg heavier than before, because it’s longer and has more kit and its standard wheels have gone up to 19-inch.
Performance numbers aren’t final yet, but in the Porsche way they’ll all be a sliver better than the cars they sell now. For economy the base car drops to a 3.4-litre from a 3.6, but it’s still very slightly more powerful than it was at 350bhp – 20bhp more than a Cayman R’s 3.4 because it has its own cylinder heads and revs higher.
The Carrera S still has a 3.8-litre, but now revving up to 7800 because of new injectors, camshafts and their drive. That means 400bhp.
And economy rises on all. Over recent history Porsche has always managed at least a 10-percent improvement for each new model. The engineers don't shake their heads when you suggest they've done the same this time. That would put the 3.4 Carrera PDK at about 33mpg and roughly 200g/km. That’s ruddy unbelievable for a GT that’ll do 0-60 in the mid-fours.
Style-wise, the full drum-roll debut is at the Frankfurt show in September – to make our prototype resemble 997s the car was well-padded with matte-black plastic wraps to dull the curves, plus bra and pants front and rear. But you can see the curvier line to the top of the rear wings, and the way the rear window sits slightly recessed in the bodywork. Inside the cabin uses lots of Panamera parts, but it doesn’t feel like a saloon in here. Just a sports car with shedloads of buttons for all the optional equipment.
All the pictures of the new Porsche 911 are here:http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/new...res-2011-01-07
For more, you’ll have to wait for the full story in the next Top Gear magazine (out Wednesday July 13). And then once again, when we actually drive it. But do let us know your initial thoughts in the meantime…
link:http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/n...-driven-review
A 911, but not as we know it. Under the tape and mesh lights covers and false turbo-look side vents, it's running all-new body and chassis. But then when did a new 911 ever look much different from the old? Not since ever.
It even sounded the same: again, no surprise given its flat-six isn’t vastly modified from what today’s retiring 911s have.
We’ll have the full story in next month’s Top Gear magazine, but for now, here are some of our impressions of our time in Porsche’s prototype 991, only the third new 911 design in the car’s 48 year history. It's going to be formally unveiled at the Frankfurt show in September.
First, the big surprise: it felt less rear-engined. Less 911-ish, more Cayman-like. Because, in a way, it is. Of course, the engine’s where it always was, hanging out the back. But the rear wheels have moved 70mm back to meet it, reducing its leverage over the rest of the car. So the mass of that engine has less see-sawing effect when you go over crests or dips. If those events coincide with a corner, there's less corkscrewing body movement.
The new shell also has its front wheels further forward, and a more sloping windscreen centreline. So it's roomier and more aerodynamic. But the screen pillars are still fairly upright to make the car as easy to see out of as all 911s are, and most other supercars defiantly aren’t.
Another fundamental change: for the sake of fuel economy, the steering is now electrically powered. Potentially dismaying news, given the dishearteningly remote systems used elsewhere, but August Achleitner, boss of the 911 line and our driver for the day, is insistent it will offer less interference on straights but the same feel as the old car in bends. We shall see.
Though the longer wheelbase gives a little more cabin room, the overhangs are shorter, so overall length doesn't rise much. And it's no wider. Still a compact, useable, glassy car. Good.
They moved the wheels by changing the gearbox – the new manual is a version of the current three-shaft PDK box, and this has its driveshaft flanges further back than the old manual. Obviously in converting the PDK to a manual, they won’t have blocked off any of its seven speeds. Prizes for naming any other seven-speed manual? (Trucks and tractors not allowed.)
But the new platform isn’t just about moving the wheelbase relative to the weight, it’s also about actually cutting weight. Aluminium is used for the floor, the main structure front and rear and most of the external panels. The rear wing and inner and outer bodysides are steel and so is the front crash structure. The new shell and other weight improvements shave somewhere between 30-40kg out of a base 911 Carrera.
If they’d left it as all-steel, it would have put on weight, not lost it. Maybe by as much as 60kg heavier than before, because it’s longer and has more kit and its standard wheels have gone up to 19-inch.
Performance numbers aren’t final yet, but in the Porsche way they’ll all be a sliver better than the cars they sell now. For economy the base car drops to a 3.4-litre from a 3.6, but it’s still very slightly more powerful than it was at 350bhp – 20bhp more than a Cayman R’s 3.4 because it has its own cylinder heads and revs higher.
The Carrera S still has a 3.8-litre, but now revving up to 7800 because of new injectors, camshafts and their drive. That means 400bhp.
And economy rises on all. Over recent history Porsche has always managed at least a 10-percent improvement for each new model. The engineers don't shake their heads when you suggest they've done the same this time. That would put the 3.4 Carrera PDK at about 33mpg and roughly 200g/km. That’s ruddy unbelievable for a GT that’ll do 0-60 in the mid-fours.
Style-wise, the full drum-roll debut is at the Frankfurt show in September – to make our prototype resemble 997s the car was well-padded with matte-black plastic wraps to dull the curves, plus bra and pants front and rear. But you can see the curvier line to the top of the rear wings, and the way the rear window sits slightly recessed in the bodywork. Inside the cabin uses lots of Panamera parts, but it doesn’t feel like a saloon in here. Just a sports car with shedloads of buttons for all the optional equipment.
All the pictures of the new Porsche 911 are here:http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/new...res-2011-01-07
For more, you’ll have to wait for the full story in the next Top Gear magazine (out Wednesday July 13). And then once again, when we actually drive it. But do let us know your initial thoughts in the meantime…
link:http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/n...-driven-review
07-02-2011, 02:11 PM
#71
Admin
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
On the bright side, it's revealed in September, so everyone should have had their hands on it by January or so -- and it looks like a big GT better suited to my family station wagon needs than the Panamera. A shame Porsche has chosen such an underhanded way to extinguish the 911.
In a way, if this particular preview echoes reality and they did change the position of the engine, and subsequently the way it feels, then I was very wrong assuming that the wheelbase change wouldn't affect the fundamental characteristics of the 911 that much.
The worst part is that they believe that this messing up with the 911 will not affect their sales and future. And I am sure that they 've done their homework..
Scary.
ps. Let's hope at least that by the time the new GT3 arrives, the new engine will have already been raced..
07-03-2011, 02:50 PM
#73
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I am afraid that this change is an irreversible one.. No "wrong" 996 headlights that were easily fixed.
In a way, if this particular preview echoes reality and they did change the position of the engine, and subsequently the way it feels, then I was very wrong assuming that the wheelbase change wouldn't affect the fundamental characteristics of the 911 that much.
The worst part is that they believe that this messing up with the 911 will not affect their sales and future. And I am sure that they 've done their homework..
Scary.
In a way, if this particular preview echoes reality and they did change the position of the engine, and subsequently the way it feels, then I was very wrong assuming that the wheelbase change wouldn't affect the fundamental characteristics of the 911 that much.
The worst part is that they believe that this messing up with the 911 will not affect their sales and future. And I am sure that they 've done their homework..
Scary.
07-03-2011, 06:00 PM
#74
Aesthetics aside, 400HP is barely more than the .2 S and obviously less than the (997) X51 package or GTS model. The power to weight has improved but even so with only a 55 lb. weight reduction and 15 measly ponies the power increase will hardly be noticeable. I thought VW wanted monumental moves between model years. I am all for evolution over revolution but this is lame.
Last edited by 911dev; 07-03-2011 at 08:18 PM.
07-03-2011, 07:29 PM
#75
Rennlist Member
I did not buy a GT3 because the engine is in the back, I bought it because it was proven that it is the only car that stays in one piece without modifications and it goes around the track pretty good, but there are faster ones for the $$.
I see it as a super Caymen with the 911 image. It even looks a bit like a Cayman and the interior is like Pana. Not good things, but if they leave it bullit proof, pure, manual, dry sump, big brakes, nannies completely defeatable, lighter with more HP, I'm good. And it must be lighter. And lighter would be essential.
I will however give it a few years to work out the bugs for heavy track use.....
I see it as a super Caymen with the 911 image. It even looks a bit like a Cayman and the interior is like Pana. Not good things, but if they leave it bullit proof, pure, manual, dry sump, big brakes, nannies completely defeatable, lighter with more HP, I'm good. And it must be lighter. And lighter would be essential.
I will however give it a few years to work out the bugs for heavy track use.....