Xpost: C&D drives the 991
06-29-2011, 07:06 PM
#31
Admin
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
About PSM, as it was explained to me, is never "off" at all, it simply switches to a different set of rules, but once it reaches a threshold where it must intervene or lose the opportunity to be able to recover control (after a certain slip-angle f'rsinance, no amount of inside rear braking or engine de-powering will compensate enough to recover given various traction calculations) it will reinstall itself.
On a 996 GT3, in the USA market, there's no PSM or TC or SC, but some (still) say they have experienced intervention.
On 997.1 GT3 once you turn off TC, it never comes back. But again, it's only TC, so it's not as if it was ever going to do anything.
Keep in mind the EDC "engine drag torque" feature is always present. I thought of it as part of TC, but I guess it's separate.
997.2 GT3 RS, in my humble experience, if you totally lose it with SC and TC off, those systems will report, after you spin and come to a halt "SC failure" ... which I found fascinating and inexplicable.
I would like to turn off TC and keep SC on, but it only works the other way round in the 997.2 -- you can turn off SC, or you can turn off SC and TC, but you can't turn off TC and keep SC on. Pity. TC is an idiot -- it will intervene when the LSD should be doing its job. But of course, the 997.2 RS has no LSD to speak of, so what am I saying? : )
http://www.porsche.com/microsite/tec...lectedVariant=
On a 996 GT3, in the USA market, there's no PSM or TC or SC, but some (still) say they have experienced intervention.
On 997.1 GT3 once you turn off TC, it never comes back. But again, it's only TC, so it's not as if it was ever going to do anything.
Keep in mind the EDC "engine drag torque" feature is always present. I thought of it as part of TC, but I guess it's separate.
997.2 GT3 RS, in my humble experience, if you totally lose it with SC and TC off, those systems will report, after you spin and come to a halt "SC failure" ... which I found fascinating and inexplicable.
I would like to turn off TC and keep SC on, but it only works the other way round in the 997.2 -- you can turn off SC, or you can turn off SC and TC, but you can't turn off TC and keep SC on. Pity. TC is an idiot -- it will intervene when the LSD should be doing its job. But of course, the 997.2 RS has no LSD to speak of, so what am I saying? : )
http://www.porsche.com/microsite/tec...lectedVariant=
Ok I got the manual and the tech info but what about your C4S in real life, did you try it with all those abbreviations off in LS?
How was it? was it off or you did the safe thing and left them all on hence making a hell of a good lap time?
About the GT cars I agree on most of your points and would like the person that said that he /she experienced intervention in a 6GT3 to come out and speak about it.
You know that I have an open mind when it comes to aliens, zodiac signs, conspiracy theories and haunted cars.
06-29-2011, 07:07 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
About PSM, as it was explained to me, is never "off" at all, it simply switches to a different set of rules, but once it reaches a threshold where it must intervene or lose the opportunity to be able to recover control (after a certain slip-angle f'rsinance, no amount of inside rear braking or engine de-powering will compensate enough to recover given various traction calculations) it will reinstall itself.
On a 996 GT3, in the USA market, there's no PSM or TC or SC, but some (still) say they have experienced intervention.
On 997.1 GT3 once you turn off TC, it never comes back. But again, it's only TC, so it's not as if it was ever going to do anything.
Keep in mind the EDC "engine drag torque" feature is always present. I thought of it as part of TC, but I guess it's separate.
997.2 GT3 RS, in my humble experience, if you totally lose it with SC and TC off, those systems will report, after you spin and come to a halt "SC failure" ... which I found fascinating and inexplicable.
I would like to turn off TC and keep SC on, but it only works the other way round in the 997.2 -- you can turn off SC, or you can turn off SC and TC, but you can't turn off TC and keep SC on. Pity. TC is an idiot -- it will intervene when the LSD should be doing its job. But of course, the 997.2 RS has no LSD to speak of, so what am I saying? : )
http://www.porsche.com/microsite/tec...lectedVariant=
On a 996 GT3, in the USA market, there's no PSM or TC or SC, but some (still) say they have experienced intervention.
On 997.1 GT3 once you turn off TC, it never comes back. But again, it's only TC, so it's not as if it was ever going to do anything.
Keep in mind the EDC "engine drag torque" feature is always present. I thought of it as part of TC, but I guess it's separate.
997.2 GT3 RS, in my humble experience, if you totally lose it with SC and TC off, those systems will report, after you spin and come to a halt "SC failure" ... which I found fascinating and inexplicable.
I would like to turn off TC and keep SC on, but it only works the other way round in the 997.2 -- you can turn off SC, or you can turn off SC and TC, but you can't turn off TC and keep SC on. Pity. TC is an idiot -- it will intervene when the LSD should be doing its job. But of course, the 997.2 RS has no LSD to speak of, so what am I saying? : )
http://www.porsche.com/microsite/tec...lectedVariant=
if the params are exceptional and you brake ...
ABD was the culprit for the rear brake overheating on the 7.1 I believe
I wondered why they chose "SC off" and "SC+TC off" instead of "TC off" I presume there is some logic behind it ...
I think the 996 GT guys must be praying to god if they feel some intervention!
06-29-2011, 07:10 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
996 was probably momentarily caught in a tractor beam from a passing Borg "cube" ... or hit a patch of sticky toffee pudding accidentally dropped on the racing line.
06-29-2011, 07:30 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
My biggest fear with the 991 is that the GT version will be "soft". I pray that Porsche does not screw this one up... If they do, I will become a Ferrari guy... (I'm getting pissed off even writing that statement)
06-29-2011, 08:25 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
I have it on good authority that you'll be able to order the car WITHOUT a sunroof, with the big glass roof that tilts (a la Audi S5), or with a conventional sunroof.
06-29-2011, 08:31 PM
#36
Intermediate
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like it, looks interesting and definitely more modern, or up-to-date if you prefer. We all know what happens when we assume, so I'm staying optimistic and having a little faith.
On a side note, these threads remind me of when Bangle took over BMW design and how everyone hated the cars, yet now those opinions have obviously made a 180. Change inherently brings mistrust and doubt, but I think the 991 will end up going in the right direction.
Also, how about a CF roof option, like the m3? It sounds like a good money maker for Porsche and great option for the consumers.
On a side note, these threads remind me of when Bangle took over BMW design and how everyone hated the cars, yet now those opinions have obviously made a 180. Change inherently brings mistrust and doubt, but I think the 991 will end up going in the right direction.
Also, how about a CF roof option, like the m3? It sounds like a good money maker for Porsche and great option for the consumers.
06-29-2011, 09:02 PM
#38
I also think folks are overreacting - I bet the new GT car will be wicked. They've been making these awhile and every time a new one comes out - it fits the bill very well.
Let's just be patient and let them make it.
Let's just be patient and let them make it.
06-29-2011, 09:36 PM
#39
Nordschleife Master
I have it on good authority that you'll be able to order the car WITHOUT a sunroof, with the big glass roof that tilts (a la Audi S5), or with a conventional sunroof.
06-29-2011, 09:39 PM
#40
Ok I got the manual and the tech info but what about your C4S in real life, did you try it with all those abbreviations off in LS?
How was it? was it off or you did the safe thing and left them all on hence making a hell of a good lap time?
About the GT cars I agree on most of your points and would like the person that said that he /she experienced intervention in a 6GT3 to come out and speak about it.
You know that I have an open mind when it comes to aliens, zodiac signs, conspiracy theories and haunted cars.
How was it? was it off or you did the safe thing and left them all on hence making a hell of a good lap time?
About the GT cars I agree on most of your points and would like the person that said that he /she experienced intervention in a 6GT3 to come out and speak about it.
You know that I have an open mind when it comes to aliens, zodiac signs, conspiracy theories and haunted cars.
PSM will intervene at any throttle position -- regardless of the brake -- but, impressively, it will pay out more and more rope for you to hang yourself if you don't exceed its parameters. For example, it's possible to drive very respectable lap times and have the car at the traction limit of decent tires like RA1s under all the permutations and combinations one can possibly imagine, including a four wheel drift with the steering wheel and throttle adjusting the attitude, rotation and line of the car without PSM doing anything. The big difference between the '09 Carrera PSM versus the '07 GT3 TC intervention is that it can come in with very subtle application of the brakes; and it will pull power out of the engine only so long as your foot is too heavy -- as soon as you find the correct throttle position, it will gather up more and more power until it resumes full power, assuming nothing else is going wrong (and keep in mind, it has a difficult job of restoring full power without behaving as if to unintentionally "accelerate" the car.) If you find the correct throttle position in a tenth of a second, you'll have the power back within that tenth. If you keep your foot buried, it will continue to scold and admonish your lack of talent. The same with steering angle. If you have excessive understeer or oversteer and you don't take charge of the helm, PSM will intervene only so long as it takes the driver to get a clue.
Conversely, if you've really screwed the pooch and you have loaded up the suspension and you're into plow-on understeer, as you unwind the lock, PSM is smart enough to know that the steering is about to go light, the car is about to enter incipient transition to oversteer and it will all go to hell in a handbasket if you're dumb enough to persist -- weight will transfer rearward and it will all be too late for any amount of inside rear brake to pull the tail of the car back into line (especially since the rear will be unweighted, but rotating, and the pendulum will not be halted) so PSM will intervene early enough to avert disaster. It's quite impressive that it can make all these measurements under the extreme conditions of the track with the car well over 120 mph, so things are happening lickety-split.
All in all, I'm an advocate of driving with PSM on (in an '09 or later Carrera or '10 or later GT3 or RS.) I'm prepared to rename them as "safeties" because they're no longer the nervous ninnies and needlessly overprotective nannies we grew to know and loathe in prior years.
I am disappointed to read about Porsche introducing concepts like a PSM that will reactive when the brakes are applied -- presumably this is when the brakes reach some threshold like ABS intervention. I can only hope they'll include a button for "Sport" buyers to buy so that once a car is in "sport plus" and PSM is deactivated, that will be enough for the Carrera to be on track without PSM reactivating itself. I don't think any system should have the facility to override something the driver has chosen. I have to suspect this is a bureaucrat run amok -- some government would-be wet nurse insisting that people must be protected from themselves and one another at all costs, for the good of the commune.
06-29-2011, 09:40 PM
#41
Nordschleife Master
On a 996 GT3, in the USA market, there's no PSM or TC or SC, but some (still) say they have experienced intervention.
On 997.1 GT3 once you turn off TC, it never comes back. But again, it's only TC, so it's not as if it was ever going to do anything.
Keep in mind the EDC "engine drag torque" feature is always present. I thought of it as part of TC, but I guess it's separate.
997.2 GT3 RS, in my humble experience, if you totally lose it with SC and TC off, those systems will report, after you spin and come to a halt "SC failure" ... which I found fascinating and inexplicable.
I would like to turn off TC and keep SC on, but it only works the other way round in the 997.2 -- you can turn off SC, or you can turn off SC and TC, but you can't turn off TC and keep SC on. Pity. TC is an idiot -- it will intervene when the LSD should be doing its job. But of course, the 997.2 RS has no LSD to speak of, so what am I saying? : )
http://www.porsche.com/microsite/tec...lectedVariant=
06-29-2011, 09:58 PM
#42
It's something I don't care to reproduce as an experiment. I've also spun with PSM (aka SC & TC) both engaged and -- at T7 at Sears when it's especially slippery sometimes -- I've had the 3.8 RS go into a four wheel drift (steering wheel straight) where the "decision" of PSM still mystifies; sometimes PSM will intervene with just engine, never with the brakes, and sometimes it won't intervene with the engine. It doesn't seem to be related to the throttle and this drift is relatively easy to reproduce, especially when trying to experiment with different techniques to study the data for that segment. I think it's got something to do with the bumpiness of the line (not just the load on the suspension, but if I go over the more bumpy area of the track, PSM seems more likely to intervene) and it doesn't seem to relate to speed or suspension load. One of many question marks when it comes to driving with PASM and PSM
06-29-2011, 11:54 PM
#44
It looks like the accentuated crease line around the rump (above the tail lights) will create a rather non-911 silhouette ... let's hope not so. And I'm horrified to see the clues that the headlights will no longer be round -- they appear to have some of the indecisive "fried egg" returning, perhaps somewhere between the Cayman (hideous) and Panamera (makes the Cayman look good.)
It's usually the case of "opposites" when marketing types speak -- if they say "we haven't messed up" ... well, it's like a politician saying "we haven't gone to war" ... it's not a "limited kinetic" action in Libya, it's an invasion. And if this 911 is longer and wider, if it's lost the 911 outline, if it's using Lexus-esque PSM programming, well, it's not a 911 and I'm afraid it could be "limited kinetic."
It's usually the case of "opposites" when marketing types speak -- if they say "we haven't messed up" ... well, it's like a politician saying "we haven't gone to war" ... it's not a "limited kinetic" action in Libya, it's an invasion. And if this 911 is longer and wider, if it's lost the 911 outline, if it's using Lexus-esque PSM programming, well, it's not a 911 and I'm afraid it could be "limited kinetic."
06-30-2011, 12:00 AM
#45
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wishing I Was At The Track
Posts: 13,618
Received 1,853 Likes
on
960 Posts
991 GT3 will be faster, lighter, and easier to drive quickly than current car. We'll all whinge like two-year olds then go buy one and rave about how great it is.