991.1 VS 991.2
07-02-2024, 03:07 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Check out this comparison
Well written Martin and thanks for the insight. Food for thought. Coincidentally I have also been checking out the 718 GTS. Never heard of the Premier Warranty but may take a look. I have a Fidelity Platinum on my 997.2 . Needed it one time in 4 1/2 years but it came through.
***https://www.caranddriver.com/porsche...ra_2014/364176
Last edited by Martin S.; 07-02-2024 at 03:10 PM.
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street rod (07-02-2024)
07-02-2024, 05:18 PM
#32
Race Car
I have both a 991.1S and a 991.2T. Both are manual. My 991.1S has sport chrono, sport exhaust (PSE), PASM sport and 14 way seats. The 991.2T comes standard with sport chrono, sport exhaust and PASM sport. My 991.2T has 18 way seats. Here's a back to back comparison:
I can answer any questions you may have. Good luck!
- Power: .1 is way down on power below 4500 rpm compared to the .2. The .2 has more low end torque whereas the .1 you won't feel the power until you hit higher rpm. At higher rpms, both cars pull hard.
- Sound: Both cars with PSE. The .1 sounds better than .2 but the .2 still sounds good with all the turbo sounds. The .1 has very slight drone around 2500-3000 rpm when cruising on the highway with PSE enabled whereas the .2 didn't have any such drone. From inside the cabin, the .1 is slightly louder.
- Looks: I prefer the rear of the .1 and the front of the .2 with the updated DRL.
- Seats: This has nothing to do with .1 vs .2 comparison but I wanted to throw this in here. I prefer the 14 way seats. The 18 way seats feel pinched around the shoulder area. Both have good bolstering and support for autocross/track driving.
- PDK: I've never driven a 911 with PDK so I can't help here. Maybe someone else can chime in with any differences between .1 and .2 PDK.
- Manual Transmission/Clutch: The clutch is noticeable stiffer on .1 than .2. However, the shifter feels lighter and easier to get into gears in the .1 strangely. I'm smoother shifting the .1 which leads to the next point.
- Throttle Response: Considerably better in the .1 being naturally aspirated. When down shifting and rev matching in the .1, I kept over revving because I was used to the muted throttle response of the .2. With the .2, there's a slight delay when you press on the gas pedal before the car reacts and how much throttle is applied. When downshifting in the .2, I have to really stab the throttle to rev match.
- Tech: My .1 doesn't have parking sensors, backup camera, blind spot sensors, Apple CarPlay or Porsche wifi Gateway that the .2 has. The Porsche wifi lets you connect to the car to pull telemetry data for racing. .1 must be optioned with park assist. There are aftermarket alternatives to get the backup camera and CarPlay.
- Suspension: I had both cars setup with the same tires and same alignment for autocross (pitiful -1.5 camber in the front and 0 toe). Even with the age gap they felt identical on the street and at the limit during autocross, which is to say they both felt fantastic.
- Other considerations for Autocross/Track:
- Traction Control: Can't be fully disabled on the non-GT .2 cars I believe. In really tight turns and hair pins, I would mash the gas pedal to see if I could throttle steer and get the rear to rotate but no throttle would be applied. Only after unwinding the wheel would it apply throttle. This was with traction control fully disabled. On the .1, I don't believe any such limitation exists. I can roll onto the throttle early and there's no power cut. During one PCA autocross event that had really tight turns, I drove mostly in first gear in the .2. As I was exiting corners, I rolled onto the gas pedal and kept it there but the car would only apply throttle as the steering wheel was opened up. Then when entering another tight corner and cranking the steering wheel it would kill throttle even with the gas still applied. This gave me a strange rubber banding sensation.
- Launching: Way easier to launch on the .2 with the soft limiter at idle and the smoother clutch engagement. I don't think the .1 has a soft limiter and for some reason I had a hard time getting consistent good launches because the clutch didn't engage progressively and felt more abrupt.
- Driving Dynamics: .1 feels more natural given the lack of turbos, better throttle response and no nannies interfering.
- Street Driving: .2 has more power and tech and is newer. This would be my choice for daily driving. At partial throttle, both cars feel quick. If you're hammering it in low rpm's, then you'll want the power of the .2. Otherwise, the .1 felt just as quick when accelerating from a stop.
- Autocross/Track/Spirited Driving: Both are fun but the .1 edges out the .2 for me (refer to points above).
- Reliability: I bought both cars as CPO. No major issues with either car. I need to take the .2 in for broken engine deck lid supports and intermittent issues with the driver window switch. The .1 has peeling leather dash. These are all covered under CPO warranty.
I can answer any questions you may have. Good luck!
As the owner of a 991.1S, a 991.1S w/ powerkit, and a 991.2GTS, I might have slightly different take, although I agree with almost all of your points.
You absolutely can fully disable traction control and all the nannies on .2 cars. Press and hold the PSM button and everything (all the nannies) turns off completely. I autocross frequently and it would drive me nuts if you couldn't turn off traction control, but you can.
The 991.2 gives you a slightly revised front and rear, frameless mirror, slightly updated PCM (with apple carplay, backup camera etc) with frameless LCD display, and probably some other minor things that I cannot remember. Nothing earth-shattering. I do prefer the front end of the 991.2. The scalloped tail lights on the 991.2 have also grown on me, although the shape of the 991.1 was also perfect. I prefer the rear grille on the 991.2 over the lobster look of the 991.1. All minor quibbles - I loved both the 991.1 and 991.2 cars that I had. Aerokit or ducktail were options on 991.1 - on the 991.2 the only option was a tiny lip spoiler ("chicktail" hahaha). Sport design front ends available for both. Sport design wheels were only available on early 991.1s (had them on my first 991.1); same with aqua blue metallic (replaced by sapphire blue metallic). Powerkit became available on 991.1S models in '13, I think.
I had more issues with my 991.1's than my 991.2, mainly the COVs (heater, PSE). That being said, I would expect those types of issues to be long fixed on any 991.1 on the market. Nothing has broken on my 991.2 after 6 1/2 years, not even the water pump (yet, maybe, hahaha).
As many have mentioned, the sound of the 991.1 is amazing, especially with PSE. The sound on the 991.2 with PSE is very good and certainly acceptable to me, but the edge definitely goes to the 991.1.
I love the torque on the 991.2. It much, much quicker than my 991.1S and 991.1S with powerkit. (Horsepower between those cars wasn't that different - 400 vs 430 vs 450 - but the torque difference between the .1 and the.2 is astounding!) The 991.2 also seems a little quieter on the highway.
I think that the suspensions and PDK are pretty much the same for both cars. (I've had PDCC/PASM and PDCC/SPASM on my two 991.1S, respectively, and PDCC/SPASM on my GTS.) I have RAS and really like it for low speed turns. At highway speeds, it is supposed to turn the rear axle in the same direction you are turning (opposite of low speed), but to be honest, I don't feel it is that huge of a difference in feel for the car. At lower speeds, I definitely feel the difference. Not a must-have but a nice-to-have.
I couldn't sum up your conclusion any better: "You can't go wrong with either car. Just depends which you would enjoy a little bit more depending on your priorities." That's it in a nutshell!
07-02-2024, 06:49 PM
#33
Drifting
Thread Starter
Well done thanks Martin S, Great info.
07-03-2024, 09:21 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
You can’t make a bad decision. The sig pic is 991.1 4S. Almost 90K miles without a rattle, leak or squeak.No failures except for the common PDM early in ownership. Finishing a 9K mile road trip tomorrow without incident, on all types of weather, roads elevations,etc.
Something about the N/A flat six going through 4K RPM that touches …….. something deep :-) :-)
Let us know what you decide & enjoy the journey.
Something about the N/A flat six going through 4K RPM that touches …….. something deep :-) :-)
Let us know what you decide & enjoy the journey.
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tmarino (07-04-2024)
07-04-2024, 12:53 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
You can’t make a bad decision. The sig pic is 991.1 4S. Almost 90K miles without a rattle, leak or squeak.No failures except for the common PDM early in ownership. Finishing a 9K mile road trip tomorrow without incident, on all types of weather, roads elevations,etc.
Something about the N/A flat six going through 4K RPM that touches …….. something deep :-) :-)
Let us know what you decide & enjoy the journey.
Something about the N/A flat six going through 4K RPM that touches …….. something deep :-) :-)
Let us know what you decide & enjoy the journey.
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Seacraft911 (07-04-2024)
07-05-2024, 10:06 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
Is the 991.2 the perfect car? There is no perfect car, although I submit the 991.2 comes very close in my experience. This model has been panned occasionally, in my opinion, mostly by those that don't own one, and perennial armchair critics, as too big, especially the top-of-the line 991.2 GTS seen as gargantuan with its wide body, a mere 2” wider than the “narrow body” Carrera base model, and its big brother the Carrera S.
Other than its exterior size, the only other critique I have heard is the 991.2 car’s water pump is prone to failure. It can happen, it happened to my car, but in most cases the failure is not dramatic, with the first sign being the discovery of a damp spot at the rear of the car. After a month of owning the car, the signs of potential failure were there. I had the water pump repaired under warranty at Independent Motorcars in San Diego (https://independentmotorcars.com)by 5-star Master Technician Gary. He replaced the water pump with the latest model from Porsche, and thankfully saw to it that the serpentine belt and idler pulley were swapped out.
This water pump “issue" seems to have become a non-issue, after being addressed by the Porsche A.G. with a revised water pump design. It is so good, that if a Porsche 991.2 car should suffer a water pump leak/failure, simply take the car to a Porsche dealer and have the faulty water pump replaced by the latest design and feel good knowing it warrantied for 10 years. Assuming the car is under a CPO or extended aftermarket warranty, there will be no charge for this service. I can’t speak to the cost for the 991.2 cars off warranty. Also, consider this problem is minor compared to problems seen on some earlier Porsche cars such a bore scoring, IMS failures, etc. In the interests of brevity, I'll not delve deeper into this topic.
Other than the water pump leak, noting I didn’t classify the event as a failure, merely an inconvenience, in the subsequent, 2 ½ years of ownership, and having tacked on 8,000 miles on the odometer, including 3 track days, the car has been flawless. I routinely drive my PDK equipped Sport Chrono 7-speed car in the Sport Mode with the Sport Exhaust engaged, but only after I leave my street. For my amusement, from time to time, I’ll drop the car into its Sport + mode, and experience the car immediately morph into a beast, automatically shifting up at a 4,000 RPM minimum under light throttle, but floor it, and it goes to 7,500 RPM Red Line in the first 6 gears, with memorable up shifts followed by the same quality of down shifts as you get off the gas. If you have the moxie to take the car to the track, and you hit Red Line in 6th gear, you’ll be going over 150 MPH. But fear not, with 350mm dia. front rotors with 330mm on the rear, the car will stop as aggressively as is needed.
When I take my 2017 Porsche GTS car out on the road, I drive it in its mid-range Sport mode, as opposed to the mild Normal Mode, and mostly avoiding the aggressive Sport + Mode, and see 27 miles per gallon, all the while, I am sporting a grin plastered across my face...that has been my experience for every mile driven to date.
Based on my super positive experience with my 991.2 GTS in my ownership, were I to find myself in the car market once again, I’d be happy to acquire any iteration of the 991.2 models: Be it the Carrera base model, the Carrera S and or the Carrera GTS and especially the 991.2 GTS Targa, my personal favorite.
Well, what about Turbo lag? In 8,000 miles, including some at the track, I have yet to experience Turbo lag.
I will close with a performance “hack”. If you were wishing for optimum performance from your 3.0-liter twin Turbo engine, consider buying a 991.2 base model, cheaper than the Carrera S, and far less than a GTS car, and consider doing the following mods with your “savings”.
· Buy and install an electronic tune,
· Upgrade the 991.2 Base turbos to at least for those found on the 991.2 GTS, or even aftermarket turbos for even greater boost,
· Upgrade the intercoolers, such as ones offered by AMS Performance:
· Install performance “cats”, SOUL Performance,
· If the car lacks Sport Exhaust, see SOUL performance.
· Consider swapping out the 991.2 Base brakes for the larger calipers and rotors offered on the 991.2 Carrera, or better yet, the 991.2 GTS. Or upgrade the stock rotors to GiroDisc 2-piece rotors that run cooler, are at least 5 lbs. per corner lighter and are rebuildable when the time comes as the rotors and hats may be acquired separately. Based on personal experience, I recommend Clark Hamerly chamerly@apexperformance.net. Clark is a long time RENNLIST supporter, and is good at his job, representing various manufactures of Porsche high performance parts.
· Consider a center radiator kit from Suncoast Porsche to cool down that radiator water. I installed one, about $800 and add the labor to install it.
· Search the Forums for some other 991.2 engine performance parts that can be upgraded on a “while you are in there” basis.
With an electronic tune, this 991.2 Base will be putting out at least 525 HP, possibly more and increased torque as well. It will be an epic “sleeper” providing maximin fun for the car’s driver and occasional passenger.
Don’t talk about it, do it!
Other than its exterior size, the only other critique I have heard is the 991.2 car’s water pump is prone to failure. It can happen, it happened to my car, but in most cases the failure is not dramatic, with the first sign being the discovery of a damp spot at the rear of the car. After a month of owning the car, the signs of potential failure were there. I had the water pump repaired under warranty at Independent Motorcars in San Diego (https://independentmotorcars.com)by 5-star Master Technician Gary. He replaced the water pump with the latest model from Porsche, and thankfully saw to it that the serpentine belt and idler pulley were swapped out.
This water pump “issue" seems to have become a non-issue, after being addressed by the Porsche A.G. with a revised water pump design. It is so good, that if a Porsche 991.2 car should suffer a water pump leak/failure, simply take the car to a Porsche dealer and have the faulty water pump replaced by the latest design and feel good knowing it warrantied for 10 years. Assuming the car is under a CPO or extended aftermarket warranty, there will be no charge for this service. I can’t speak to the cost for the 991.2 cars off warranty. Also, consider this problem is minor compared to problems seen on some earlier Porsche cars such a bore scoring, IMS failures, etc. In the interests of brevity, I'll not delve deeper into this topic.
Other than the water pump leak, noting I didn’t classify the event as a failure, merely an inconvenience, in the subsequent, 2 ½ years of ownership, and having tacked on 8,000 miles on the odometer, including 3 track days, the car has been flawless. I routinely drive my PDK equipped Sport Chrono 7-speed car in the Sport Mode with the Sport Exhaust engaged, but only after I leave my street. For my amusement, from time to time, I’ll drop the car into its Sport + mode, and experience the car immediately morph into a beast, automatically shifting up at a 4,000 RPM minimum under light throttle, but floor it, and it goes to 7,500 RPM Red Line in the first 6 gears, with memorable up shifts followed by the same quality of down shifts as you get off the gas. If you have the moxie to take the car to the track, and you hit Red Line in 6th gear, you’ll be going over 150 MPH. But fear not, with 350mm dia. front rotors with 330mm on the rear, the car will stop as aggressively as is needed.
When I take my 2017 Porsche GTS car out on the road, I drive it in its mid-range Sport mode, as opposed to the mild Normal Mode, and mostly avoiding the aggressive Sport + Mode, and see 27 miles per gallon, all the while, I am sporting a grin plastered across my face...that has been my experience for every mile driven to date.
Based on my super positive experience with my 991.2 GTS in my ownership, were I to find myself in the car market once again, I’d be happy to acquire any iteration of the 991.2 models: Be it the Carrera base model, the Carrera S and or the Carrera GTS and especially the 991.2 GTS Targa, my personal favorite.
Well, what about Turbo lag? In 8,000 miles, including some at the track, I have yet to experience Turbo lag.
I will close with a performance “hack”. If you were wishing for optimum performance from your 3.0-liter twin Turbo engine, consider buying a 991.2 base model, cheaper than the Carrera S, and far less than a GTS car, and consider doing the following mods with your “savings”.
· Buy and install an electronic tune,
· Upgrade the 991.2 Base turbos to at least for those found on the 991.2 GTS, or even aftermarket turbos for even greater boost,
· Upgrade the intercoolers, such as ones offered by AMS Performance:
· Install performance “cats”, SOUL Performance,
· If the car lacks Sport Exhaust, see SOUL performance.
· Consider swapping out the 991.2 Base brakes for the larger calipers and rotors offered on the 991.2 Carrera, or better yet, the 991.2 GTS. Or upgrade the stock rotors to GiroDisc 2-piece rotors that run cooler, are at least 5 lbs. per corner lighter and are rebuildable when the time comes as the rotors and hats may be acquired separately. Based on personal experience, I recommend Clark Hamerly chamerly@apexperformance.net. Clark is a long time RENNLIST supporter, and is good at his job, representing various manufactures of Porsche high performance parts.
· Consider a center radiator kit from Suncoast Porsche to cool down that radiator water. I installed one, about $800 and add the labor to install it.
· Search the Forums for some other 991.2 engine performance parts that can be upgraded on a “while you are in there” basis.
With an electronic tune, this 991.2 Base will be putting out at least 525 HP, possibly more and increased torque as well. It will be an epic “sleeper” providing maximin fun for the car’s driver and occasional passenger.
Don’t talk about it, do it!
Last edited by Martin S.; 07-05-2024 at 10:09 AM.
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DR911s (07-06-2024)
07-05-2024, 10:18 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
Glancing over this string prior to my above post, what an incredible source of information, and rarely seen in one spot. Congrats to all have read and contributed to this string; I have learned a lot.
Compared to my post above, it was was fun to write but not that comprehensive compared to what has been posted on this string by others.
"RENNLIST, is this a great place or what?, Chris Walrod has written in the past.
Compared to my post above, it was was fun to write but not that comprehensive compared to what has been posted on this string by others.
"RENNLIST, is this a great place or what?, Chris Walrod has written in the past.
07-05-2024, 10:56 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
WoW, that’s quite a bias endorsement for a 991.1. I think I’m going to sell my faster, more technically advanced, better looking 991.2 and get one ha ha. But seriously the Porsche Turbo has always been the pinnacle of the Porsche lineup. Now that Porsche is turbocharging all its 911’s it’s a bad thing?
Your .2 isn't a true Porsche Turbo.......yes it has turbos but it's NOT a "Porsche Turbo" and will not garner the respect a true Porsche Turbo get's....plain and simple.
Last edited by Viper1000; 07-05-2024 at 10:57 AM.
07-05-2024, 01:09 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
The “turbo” is my least favorite 911. Too heavy, AWD, no thanks. At that price point I would much prefer and respect the GT3.
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Viper1000 (07-05-2024)
07-05-2024, 02:08 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
07-05-2024, 02:11 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
I just tuned my 991.2 T with APR after having it stock for almost a year, following 4 years of 991.1 S ownership... It's not even close anymore, the 991.2 is in a different class of power now. I have to learn and adjust to having a car this fast now.
Last edited by AdamSanta85; 07-05-2024 at 02:15 PM.
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Throttle Lift (07-05-2024)
07-05-2024, 03:17 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
WoW, that’s quite a bias endorsement for a 991.1. I think I’m going to sell my faster, more technically advanced, better looking 991.2 and get one ha ha. But seriously the Porsche Turbo has always been the pinnacle of the Porsche lineup. Now that Porsche is turbocharging all its 911’s it’s a bad thing?
07-05-2024, 03:20 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
I felt the same way after 6 years with a 991.2 Base MT. GIAC tuned and it is a rocket. Still learning to drive it with the tune.
07-05-2024, 07:50 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
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Sledge911 (07-05-2024)
07-05-2024, 09:41 PM
#45
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timothymoffat (07-05-2024)