Multimodal

I switched from a GT350 to a 991 Carrera T last year. This is my weekend and track car, and I go to HPDEs about once a month.

The T is as fast as the GT350 around a track, but its biggest weakness is the brakes. I burnt up a fresh set of OEM pads and warped the rotors in one weekend, which is completely unacceptable. (My GT350 came from the factory with 15” Brembos; the factory pads could last a half-dozen track days or more and the factory rotors could last a full season.)

I really didn’t want to invest thousands in a brake upgrade, but I also can’t justify this as a track car if every track weekend requires replacing $1000 in brake parts.

I’ve purchased Pagid Yellow track pads and I’m hoping those last longer and don’t chew up the rotors as much.

What other options do I have?

jakermc

We just had a long discussion on this very topic here: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1355...-reviewed.html

I also had a GT350 prior to my T. Gotta say, the brakes on that car were impressive. Outside of the ceramics on my old Porsche GT cars, it is the only car I have ever tracked that could run a full day of run sessions on completely stock components.

A couple of questions: What skill level are you at as a driver? What is the primary issue(s) you are trying to solve? (Brake fade, longevity of components, feel/Friction level, etc.) What is the budget? - looking for the most cost effective way to solve initial problems or looking for a system that you will never have to think about again?

The yellow pagids aren't that aggressive, will last, and quite frankly the rotors are cheap on the T. So if you are not having fade this might be all you need.

Multimodal

I did Pagid RSL1 on the front and, because the RSL1 were on national backorder for the rear, I got RSL29 (Yellow) for the rear.

I’m trying to solve for bite and longevity. I haven’t experienced fade, but I have had to leave track days early because the pads were gone.

I don’t want to spend too much in a big brake kit system because I do see myself upgrading to a GT3 in the future (like, 3 years from now) and don’t want to spend $10K that I’ll never get back.

jakermc

The 29 compound is considered their endurance pad. Its a medium friction level and pretty easy on rotors. And if you keep a good layer on the rotors, they can be quiet enough for the street. But lots of cold stops will wear away the base layer and make them squeal like a pig. Re-bed them when that happens. The pads handle heat well and will last significantly longer than your most recent experience. Increasing friction will usually increase rotor wear, generally speaking that is the trade-off. Other pads in the same general category are Endless ME20 and Ferodo DS2500. These are also streetable track pads that could be considered. But for now, run what you just bought and see how they do.

The GT350 has a true racing brake set-up on the car while the T has street car brakes. You won't reach the braking capability you are used to without some hardware changes. Just a matter of budget and what trade-offs you are willing to consider to find the right set-up for your individual needs. If you do go BBK, you could always pull it off the car later and recover about 65% of your purchase price. So not a total loss.

Quick GT350 story, the first time I tracked mine I was at the track with Billy Johnson, factory driver who helped develop the car. Before going out I asked about the brakes, mentioning that I had never been on a stock set-up that could last a full session without fading. He got a big smile on his face and just said "Go all out, you have zero concerns." He was right.

If you want to try Endless ME20 pads, I have a set available in your size with just 7 laps on them that I'd sell to you . Just let me know via PM.

spyderbret

Get some girodisk rotors, high temp brake fluid and new pads. There are a number of good vendors that will chime in. The base brakes on the T are terrible if you are a moderately experienced track guy. Sounds like that's where you are. The previously mentioned upgrades wont cost thousands and should get you to where you want to be. I personally went with the Brembo BBK but for different reasons. Pad, disk and fluid change will do wonders.

Multimodal

I have the new pads (haven't tried them yet) and the high temp brake fluid.
Do the Girodisc rotors help with performance or just longevity? If it's the latter, it's $2600 for Girodisc vs. $500 for stock. Do Girodisc rotors last >5x as long?

spyderbret

They will last a lot longer than stock for sure. And will help with performance too. Might even get you through to the GT3 depending on how many days a year you do.

cbredesen

There's a thread where one of the vendors (KNS Brakes in NC) noted they have some deals right now on a few sets of Giro for 991.2 S/GTS. not sure if it's still available but you can search and see what you find. I got some pricing via DM but the dealer asked me not to share. I can't recall if T has base or S size brakes but you could be in luck.

I concur with the other poster on Giro+Hi Temp+ good pads. That's my plan once my OEM rotors are done for.

Zylinderkopfdichtung

I too came to a T from a GT350. Mine was a GT350R, but other than the caliper color m, the R and non-R have the same brakes.

I did spend the money on an Essex Parts / AP Racing brake kit. I went front’s only at first, but eventually added a matching set to the rear.

This setup on DS1.11 pads is as good as the GT350R on G-Loc R12 pads with stock rotors. Maybe better. Alas, it wasn’t cheap.

That said, the T is WAY cheaper on consumables than the GT350R. The 500lb-600lb weight savings is a game changer when it comes to eating pads and tires. Hell, I was lucky to get a single weekend out of the front Cup 2s even with camber plates and max negative camber.

So, think of how much money you’ll save on tires that can instead be put into big brakes!

Pappagray

I just went through this on my T. Stock everything the brakes got incredibly hot on track. I made a move to Fluid and Girodisc and the problem was instantly solved. The 2 piece rotors do a way better job of managing heat. The increased 20mm also helps. I just got my endless pads, so haven't had a chance to install and track them, but for short sessions, I didn't have any failure on the stock pads. I would have done pads at the same time as the disc but they took a long time to arrive.

If money is no object, just buy a AP Brake kit from Essex and never look back. For me, the price was a little steep so i went the cheaper route. Performance is good for my level of skill.

Multimodal

Thanks for the tip. I found that post and messaged KNS.

JRitt@essex

Mr. Maboomba,
Beautiful T you have there! We have a variety of brake upgrades that will protect you from blowing $1,000 per weekend in the future. We've helped quite a few Carrera T (and GT350) owners with our AP Racing by Essex Brake products. You can see our full menu for your car here: https://www.essexparts.com/my-vehicl...0T/Iron%20disc

As you've discovered, the problem with the T is that the car has huge potential for speed but is equipped with the weakest brake package offered on the chassis. This becomes quickly apparent when taken on the track, and it really becomes glaringly obvious when the car is modified in any way. Even a basic tune and sticky tires can have you pushing outside the brake system's capabilities on a hard braking track.

Here are the options we offer:

Option A: 2-piece AP Racing J Hook Discs / Ferodo DS3.12 pads / AP Racing R3 fluid / Spiegler SS Brake Lines
This is the most cost-effective option. We increase the diameter of the front and rear discs on your Carrera T from 330mm at both ends to 350mm at both ends. We include some small billet aluminum spacers that simply push your brake calipers out a little bit to the proper location to accommodate the larger discs. The added size of the discs provides more thermal mass than the stock discs, and spreads the heat over a larger surface area. Our AP Racing J Hook discs flow far more air than the stock units, and have been heralded by many for their durability. The Ferodo DS3.12 is an endurance racing compound that is winning GT racing championships around the world. It is incredibly popular in the Porsche track day and club racing market currently...we sell loads of them. AP R3 fluid will be ample for what you need, and is the formula we used to supply to NASCAR Cup, IMSA, etc. before AP R4 was introduced. This setup will be a significant improvement over stock in terms of heat reduction and durability, and should substantially lower your per weekend running costs.

Shopping list for this setup:
Front AP Racing by Essex J Hook Discs ($1559)= https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...-replace-330mm
Rear AP Racing by Essex J Hook Discs ($1559)= https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...air-35028-rear
Ferodo Racing DS3.12 OEM front caliper ($496) = https://www.essexparts.com/ferodo-fc...312-brake-pads
Ferodo Racing DS3.12 OEM rear caliper ($625)= https://www.essexparts.com/ferodo-fc...-12-brake-pads
Spiegler 6 Stainless Brake lines kit ($399)= https://www.essexparts.com/spiegler-...ear-6-line-kit
AP Racing R3 fluid x 3 bottles ($90)= https://www.essexparts.com/ap-radi-cal-r3-brake-fluid
Total price= $4,728

Option B: Complete front Brake Kit front and 2-piece J Hook Discs rear
The next step up in terms of durability would be one of our complete front AP Racing by Essex Brake Kits, mated to our 2-piece rear discs described above. We have two different types of AP Radi-CAL brake kits, our Road Kits and our Competition Kits. Here's an article that examines the differences between the two: https://www.essexparts.com/big-brake...-right-for-you
The link jakermc provided to the other thread was regarding the Road Kit he is running. That system uses 380mm discs front and rear, and is similar in size to what comes from the factory on a 991 GT3. These require a 19" wheel or larger. Our Competition Kits for the Carrera T use slightly smaller discs at 372mm front and 365mm rear, which fit in a wide variety of 18" wheels. Our Competition Kits are also considerably lighter than the Road Kits.

Given that you tracking your car at least once per month, I would lean towards suggesting our Competition Kits rather than our Road Kits, but either will do what you need them to do. They simply go about things in a slightly different way. They both provide a huge increase in thermal mass over the stock T brakes. You can think of the Road Kit as a sledgehammer and the Competition Kit as a scalpel. The Road Kit overcomes heat with a huge heat sink in the disc and pad, and the caliper is considerably larger physically. The Competition Kit overcomes heat via highly engineered materials and features, such as stainless steel caliper pistons. The Road Kit fills up the wheels nicer and some people think it is a bit more cosmetically appealing for road use.

For the sake of discussion, I'll show pricing for the front Competition Kit since it's a bit more expensive than the Road Kit. Road Kit is a few hundred cheaper, but does include front Ferodo DS2500 pads)

Front CP9661 Competition Brake Kit ($5299)= https://www.essexparts.com/ap-racing...1372mm-porsche
Ferodo DS3.12 pads for AP CP9661 caliper ($225...first set of pads is discounted with kit purchase)
Rear AP Racing by Essex J Hook Discs ($1559)= https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...air-35028-rear
Ferodo Racing DS3.12 OEM rear caliper ($625)= https://www.essexparts.com/ferodo-fc...-12-brake-pads
Spiegler rear SS Brake lines are included with the front kit
AP Racing R3 fluid x 3 bottles ($90)= https://www.essexparts.com/ap-radi-cal-r3-brake-fluid
Total price= $7698
The Road Kit would be $300 cheaper, but you'd have a set of Ferodo DS2500 pads included so it would be a wash.

If you went with our front Competition Kit, our gray anodized calipers would be the best match aesthetically with your OEM rear calipers (rather than our ENP nickel finish), and both ends of the car would have J Hook discs.

***Please note*** If you go with 2-piece J Hook discs to fit the OEM calipers, you can't subsequently add AP Racing calipers to those discs. The AP Racing calipers use a completely different size of disc vs. the OEM calipers, so one set of discs are NOT interchangeable with the different calipers.

Option C: Complete front and rear AP Racing Brake Kit
This is obviously the most expensive option, but also the most durable. Both ends of the car would be upgraded far beyond the capabilities of any OEM system offers for the 991 chassis, including the GT3 setup. This is the most durable setup and would consume the least spares per weekend and have the lowest overall running costs. Everything would also match aesthetically if that matters to you.

Front CP9661 Competition Brake Kit ($5299)= https://www.essexparts.com/ap-racing...1372mm-porsche
Rear CP9449 Competition Brake Kit ($4899)= https://www.essexparts.com/ap-racing...orsche-997-991
Front and rear Ferodo DS3.12 would be $225 front and $175 rear
Spiegler lines are included with the brake kits for both ends of the car.
AP Racing R3 fluid x 3 bottles ($90)= https://www.essexparts.com/ap-radi-cal-r3-brake-fluid
Total price= $10688


A few questions for you before I could make a recommendation out of the above options:
1. What tracks are you running and what other mods do you plan to make to the car?
2. What tires are you running?
3. Did you burn through the front or rear pads more quickly?
4. Did your brake pedal ever get soft or mushy?


Side note...the OEM GT350 brake system is definitely far more stout than what comes on your Carrera T. It comes with a 394mm front disc that has 30 lbs. of thermal mass vs. a 330mm/22 lbs. disc on the Carrera T...and the pad volume on the GT350 is much larger. The GT350 is obviously a lot heavier and relatively harder on the front brakes vs. the rear brakes due to the drivetrain layout (engine hanging over the front). But, the Carrera T is hugely capable and definitely under-braked from the factory given the overall performance envelope of the car. FYI...we (Essex) worked with Ford to develop the brakes for the Shelby FP350S racecar. The factory racecar brake system we developed for that car is essentially identical to what we can offer you for your Carrera T if you choose our Competition Kit.


Another multi-Porsche owner and hardcore track driver/racer just wrote a nice unsolicited review in the Driver's Ed section of Rennlist about our Competition kits that he's running on two of his cars. He talks about both pad and disc wear in his review, and notes, "The J Hook rotors last forever, I've changed both fronts and haven't needed to change the rears on either. Each car sees 40-50 track days a year. Had the AP kits on both for about 2 years."
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...l#post18908249

Many other owner reviews on our Essex Blog: https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog

Finally, please keep in mind that our kits hold a great deal of value and truly are an investment. They typically change hands on the used market for about 65% of the original price. That means you can beat up on them for the duration of ownership, and then sell them off when it comes time to move on to your next car. The initial purchase certainly stings a bit, but hat dramatically lowers your long-term running costs. If you beat the heck out of your OEM calipers during your ownership, that diminishes the car's appeal on the used market. If you put your OEM brakes on the shelf now, you will have them fresh to reinstall on the car when you sell it. If you thrash them, you may even have to spend money refreshing the stock setup, only to hand that money over to the new owner. With our kit, you have money coming in from the sale of our used kit, rather than any type of outlay to prep the car's brakes for sale.

JRitt@essex

Some reference visuals for the different products I described above. We have equipped quite a few Carrera Ts thus far, and everyone has been thrilled with the results of our systems.

Front and rear Road Kit...comes in Red, Black, or Silver (thank you again Jakermc!)



Road Kit with red calipers




Road Kit with black calipers


Another Black Kit on a different silver T




Here's a GIF a customer made to show before and after on a T with our silver Road Kit.



Front and rear Competition Kit


Classic white with anodized calipers in our Competition Kit



A different red T with our Competition Kit trying to make my NSX jealous.


A wild, 700 WHP beast of a T, owned by the lead Porsche software calibrator at APR...our Competition Kit in action.



GT4RS with our ENP (Nickel) caliper finish





A different 4RS with ENP






2-piece J Hook discs with OEM calipers behind some beautiful BBS





Green 3RS with J Hooks and stock PCCB calipers...this one was getting driven!

spyderbret

I was reading this again and realized that I have not changed the rotors on my Cayman since I put the AP kit on them. I did a few pad changes but not the rotors and they were still in great shape when I stopped using the car for track. The system on my GT3 only has a few thousand miles on it and I still dont need pads yet! Love AP.

Cayman R

991.2 GT3

HardRider

Easy solution if cost is a concern. Buy used one for 60% and sell when done using......