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I’ve been happy with ds2500. Hallett is technical but only two straightaways, neither terribly long. Also, I have girodisc rotors which may help some, and I’m on cup2’s or similar, not R compound or slicks. And finally, although I drive hard when on track, I’m only at 3-4 track days per season, so the first set of pads lasted a couple years. So, I ordered another set of ds2500. That said, it’s be interesting to put a set of racing pads on and try them!
I also use GiroDisc rotors, with 200tw tires (Falken RT660) on my 997.1. My DS2500 pads faded at my first event with them.
Jeff at Essex has some great advice. I also found the friction vs temp graph (below) at this Essex page (Ferodo Racing DS3.12 Brake Pads: A New Benchmark for Control | Essex Parts Services, Inc.). Pretty good reasoning, for me anyway. Sorry it is a little blurry - best there was at that site and I couldn't find a better one. Importantly, the DS3.12 friction is quite a bit higher and it does not reduce with temperature (amazing to me). Note the DS2500 dropoff. Sorry I cut off the temp scale - dropoff starts at about 350C.
I also use GiroDisc rotors, with 200tw tires (Falken RT660) on my 997.1. My DS2500 pads faded at my first event with them.
Jeff at Essex has some great advice. I also found the friction vs temp graph (below) at this Essex page (Ferodo Racing DS3.12 Brake Pads: A New Benchmark for Control | Essex Parts Services, Inc.). Pretty good reasoning, for me anyway. Sorry it is a little blurry - best there was at that site and I couldn't find a better one. Importantly, the DS3.12 friction is quite a bit higher and it does not reduce with temperature (amazing to me). Note the DS2500 dropoff. Sorry I cut off the temp scale - dropoff starts at about 350C.
Please use caution when lookng at brake dyno plots online. You need to take the precise numbers with a grain of salt. When we test pads on our own brake dyno, the numbers never really resemble what manufacturers claim. The trends sometimes do, but never the precise numbers. Every dyno (the machine itself) is different, as are the test procedures used on them. It's just like engine dynos. That's why you can never stack the brake dyno numbers of one manufacturer against another manufacturers for any type of valid comparison.
That said, as SteveP points out, the general shape of the curve for the Ferodo pads IS comparable. In other words, as temps increase DS2500's coefficient of friction declines. DS3.12 has a higher maximum operating temperature before fading, and has a flatter coefficient of friction across a broader temperature range. Those are the types of conclusions that are valid. Again, that is only within a given manufacturer's data sets or charts.
I often see people here on Rennlist (and everywhere really) throwing out comparisons and arriving at conclusions about pads based on their respective companies' marketing graphs. They'll say, "Ferodo states their mu number for DS3.12 as 0.57 and PFC states the mu number for PFC11 as 0.48. That means the DS3.12 has more bite and will last longer." No, nope, no that isn't true at all. First, keep in mind that mu/coefficient of friction is perpetually changing with temperature, so just comparing a generic mu number tells you absolutely nothing!
What you can glean from these graphs are general trends and comparisons within a given brand based on their comparative numbers (Pad X has a slightly rising torque curve across a wide spread of temperatures, and then seems to decline gradually when it reaches 1600F. That same brand's Pad Y has a slightly lower max operating temp however, and starts to lose friction sooner."
One of the reasons we have our own custom brake dyno in-house is to compare data across all pad brands on the same machine with the same procedures, under the conditions in which our customers use them. We can simulate how a Pagid pad will hold up to Watkins Glen, and then compare that to a new compound being developed by Ferodo. In that manner it is truly apples-to-apples.
Also of note, out of every brake pad compound we've ever tested from any brand (and that's a very big number), the Ferodo DS3.12 has the widest, flattest torque curve. That means the amount of friction it generates is incredibly stable, which translates to getting the same response through your foot every time. That's why it always feels the same no matter what lap you're on in what session, which makes hitting your brake markers repeatable. That's why pro drivers love it and the DS3.12 is crushing it in international GT racing right now.
Hopefully the above makes sense.
__________________
'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs Ferodo Racing Brake Pads Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030 jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
I ran DS2500s on my Cayman , just switched to 3.12 , and so far been very happy after 2 days on NJMP Lightning. We will see if they wear slower than the 2500s . I plan on switching back to 2500 for the street .
To reiterate what @JRitt@essex says , check the inside pads . My outsides were maybe 6mm , but the inside was 2-3mm after a few track days.
The 3.12's you had on were a dream at NJMP. No way you woulda gotten that performance and life out of the 2500's the way you were beginning to brake.
Left pads are Textar pads I used for less than 1k street miles and 2 track days, couldn't stand them, right pad is a DS2500.
Since I used to run Ferodo back in the day, I looked at the Essex site recommendation and chose the DS2500 to try. I looked these pads up in Ferodo's 1 million page catalog and I think it said the thickness was 15.4mm including the backing plate, that means that I used between 1 and 2mm of pad material in 4 wet track sessions and 5 dry sessions (2 days) and a few hundred street miles, I broke them in on the highway on the way to the track according to their instructions. When I put them on I completely forgot to measure the thickness so that was dumb. But if I ballpark at a mm per track day that could mean I have 4 to 5 more track days left in them before I Should replace them.
Since they don't have the feel I want I may try the 3.12, currently running on tw 220 tires.
Last edited by quickboxster; 05-03-2023 at 12:53 AM.
Decided on proceeding, so new pads and rotors all around, job done. The DS2500 had been ok, but I thought it would be interesting to try true race pads, so I installed a set of DS3.12. Bedding in tomorrow, track days next week.
THe DS3.12 pads were awesome at the track. I have been lazy and they are still on the car, next track day coming up in a few weeks. On the street, there has been no squealing and they function well but they put out prodigious amounts of brake dust. Just a quick drive to the hardware store and back leaves the rear haunches covered in brake dust. I guess when fall comes around I'll put some DS2500 back on until next spring. Others have similar experience with these pads?
Same. Started with DS2500 for DEs; great pads, but wore quickly. Replaced fronts with 3.12, and left DS2500 on the back. Big difference in wear, about twice the DS2500s. Both are great pads. Generally quiet on the street, but the 3.12s are a bit noisy coming up to a stop. I’m also planning to swap back to DS2500 for the winter season. Helps a lot that they get replaced for free from FCP Euro.
Last edited by tedcassidy; 07-14-2023 at 11:10 AM.
THe DS3.12 pads were awesome at the track. I have been lazy and they are still on the car, next track day coming up in a few weeks. On the street, there has been no squealing and they function well but they put out prodigious amounts of brake dust. Just a quick drive to the hardware store and back leaves the rear haunches covered in brake dust. I guess when fall comes around I'll put some DS2500 back on until next spring. Others have similar experience with these pads?
A few critical points to understand on this topic:
Hardness/Abrasiveness
Brake pads operate in one of two ways, abrasive or adherent. Abrasive means that the pads are not sticking to the disc face, but rather abrading/grinding it away. This is typical when you rub any two hard objects together like a pad and disc. The softer of the two is going to erode. Rub chalk on a sidewalk, and the chalk wears down. If the pads you're running are softer than the discs you're running, the pads will wear down. If the discs are softer than the pads, the discs will wear down. The hardness of both your discs and pads is going to vary by disc, pad compound, pad type, manufacturer, etc. For example, a mild organic street pad designed for low noise is going to be much softer than a sintered metal racing pad (which is essentially pure powdered metal).
Abrasive vs. Adherent Operation- Temperature Dependent
With the above said, the relationship between the pad and disc face is constantly changing with temperature. As temperature rises, brake pads switch from generating friction via an abrasive mechanism to an adherent mechanism. For example, if you run a highly metallic race pad compound cold, it is going to be grinding your disc faces down perpetually, because at ambient/lower temps the pad material is harder and more abrasive than your brake disc material (gray iron brake discs are relatively soft in the grand scheme of things). As the pads heat up, they start to switch to an adherent friction mechanism...they get hot and start to stick to the disc face.
Pad Transfer Layer
If you get the pads hot enough, enough of the pad material will stick to the disc face to leave a blueish-gray pad transfer layer on the disc face. At that point, the pads are essentially no longer rubbing directly on the disc face. They're instead running atop a thin layer of pad material on the disc face. That transfer layer does several things: It quiets things down considerably. Rubbing brake pads against an iron brake disc tends to make all sorts of unpleasant squealing noises. Rubbing a brake pad against a layer of itself deposited on a brake disc tends to make far less noise. So to get rid of brake squeal, you try to maintain a pad transfer layer on your disc face. When you run your brakes cold, that layer is scraped off since the pads are operating in an abrasive manner. When they're heated back up, they deposit more material on your disc faces. That's why your brakes may not make any squealies at the track. You're constantly laying down a pad transfer layer each lap. When you drive them home through stop-and-go traffic at ambient temps however, the pads operate in their abrasive manner and peel the pad transfer layer off the discs. So in that case the brake dust is the pad transfer layer being first peeled off, then the iron disc face. Let the squealies begin!
A good portion of the visible brake dust you see on your wheels is actually your discs, not your pads, particularly when you're driving around on cold brakes. Racing pad compounds have higher metal content to withstand heat, and are going to be considerably more abrasive when cold. Running race pads on the street will wear your discs down more than a street pad compound when run cold.
When you go to the track and heat everything up to over 1000F, things change considerably (typical operating temps for discs at the track are in the 900-1400F...extreme would be 1400F+, but we do see that in certain types of racing that limit disc size, etc.). At searing temps your pads start depositing more material on your discs and will wear more quickly. If you push the pads outside of their max operating temperature, they can really start to break down in a hurry. If pushed too far outside their intended operating range a pad compound may even crumble, binding agents may fail, etc.
To this day there still isn't a unicorn pad that works optimally in all conditions. A pad that is quiet, easy on discs, and has good cold bite typically has a marginal max operating temperature at the track. Conversely, a pad that can handle 1500F without breaking down will have poor cold bite, will squeal when rubbed against an iron disc, and will chew through your discs when cold. The Ferodo DS2500 is a compound that walks the line between these two scenarios. It will work on the track in some situations, but just won't be enough in others. Vehicle weight, track configuration, tire choice, driving style, horsepower, tire choice...all variables that will determine whether it is a viable track option or not, and really impossible to predict without trying it. The DS3.12 is a pure racing compound. It has a considerably higher coefficient of friction and will shrug off sustained track temps. It will be much more abrasive on your discs when run cold however.
Hopefully that helps, and thanks for your continued support of Ferodo.
One more note...Ferodo shuts their Italian pad factory down for the month of August every year to give their workers time off. If you need Ferodo pads for early fall events, please get your orders in asap so we can get them on their way to the USA from Italy. Thanks again.
Last edited by JRitt@essex; 07-14-2023 at 09:36 AM.
I have Full APRacing kits on both my 19 GT3RS and my 09 Cayman S racecar, and I run 3.12 on both. I have never had any sensation of brake fade and I get 6-10 track days out of a set on both. I just read the Racing and track owners guide, and I was happy to see the recommendation to swap pads from inside out every so often. I have been doing this for a long time, and I always wondered if I was being smart. Tires only last about 2 days each, so I always rotate the pad when changing tires. This is made much easier because the APRacing calipers have open backs making it very easy to swap/rotate the pads.
I always take an extra set of pads front and rear for each car. My Cayman and my RS both take the same front pad, the rears on the Cayman are smaller.
So my overall point is, APRacing and Ferodo 3.12 pads are awesome for track and race. My RS sees very little street time, and the Cayman sees none, so the 3.12's are always on the car.
The J Hook rotors last forever, I've changed both fronts and haven't needed to change the rears on either. Each car sees 40-50 track days a year. Had the AP kits on both for about 2 years.
We have a track membership at The Podium Club and we (my wife and I both race) race with a local track club ProAutoSports here in Arizona.
I have Full APRacing kits on both my 19 GT3RS and my 09 Cayman S racecar, and I run 3.12 on both. I have never had any sensation of brake fade and I get 6-10 track days out of a set on both. I just read the Racing and track owners guide, and I was happy to see the recommendation to swap pads from inside out every so often. I have been doing this for a long time, and I always wondered if I was being smart. Tires only last about 2 days each, so I always rotate the pad when changing tires. This is made much easier because the APRacing calipers have open backs making it very easy to swap/rotate the pads.
I always take an extra set of pads front and rear for each car. My Cayman and my RS both take the same front pad, the rears on the Cayman are smaller.
So my overall point is, APRacing and Ferodo 3.12 pads are awesome for track and race. My RS sees very little street time, and the Cayman sees none, so the 3.12's are always on the car.
The J Hook rotors last forever, I've changed both fronts and haven't needed to change the rears on either. Each car sees 40-50 track days a year. Had the AP kits on both for about 2 years.
We have a track membership at The Podium Club and we (my wife and I both race) race with a local track club ProAutoSports here in Arizona.
Surfndav,
Thank you so much for the detailed feedback, and I'm glad our Essex brake kits with the Ferodo DS3.12 are providing such a great experience on both of your cars! I really appreciate you taking the time to write that post with photos. We literally have thousands of Porsche clients, but it frequently proves difficult getting them to provide pics or feedback. The satisfied ones remain quiet and happy, and everyone is busy running their business, attending to patients, etc. Or, they just don't realize how important sharing their positive experience with other prospective owners is to our business. Thank you for taking the time to do so!
Jeff
Surfndav,
Thank you so much for the detailed feedback, and I'm glad our Essex brake kits with the Ferodo DS3.12 are providing such a great experience on both of your cars! I really appreciate you taking the time to write that post with photos. We literally have thousands of Porsche clients, but it frequently proves difficult getting them to provide pics or feedback. The satisfied ones remain quiet and happy, and everyone is busy running their business, attending to patients, etc. Or, they just don't realize how important sharing their positive experience with other prospective owners is to our business. Thank you for taking the time to do so!
Jeff
yep I get it, when things are going well I don’t spend a lot of time dwelling on it.
As for me, I work a regular blue-collar job, in communications. My wife though, is a dentist, she has the wherewithal that allows us to drive Porsches. I’m just lucky that she loves driving on track and racing as much as I do.
05-02-2023, 01:21 PM
First, keep in mind that mu/coefficient of friction is perpetually changing with temperature, so just comparing a generic mu number tells you absolutely nothing!
