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Any other thoughts/explanations? And would that out weigh the benefits of 300V - better UOA's, 1-2 mpg increase in steady state 170 mi drives, and subjectively a smoother engine?
I think Motul 300V is an excellent oil right up there with the Driven products. The additive package is outstanding. Only issue I have is price ($13 @ L.) like Driven oil ($12 @ qt.).
IMHO I find the price of Driven DI40 or oil in general to be a non-issue. Using good quality oil in these cars is IMHO the single most important thing you can do to maintain and take care of your car. It's important to remember that oil is important for not only lubrication but one of its primary functions is also heat transfer. Crap oils do things like shear easily at high temps and you have oil with the viscosity of water that you are depending on to protect your engine internals. Many issues like oil consumption can actually be traced back to root causes like using cheap oil and/or long OCIs (I do 5K max which is about every 6 months).
I have spent the last year studying this topic in excruciating detail and the short of it is that it's pennywise and pound foolish to run a cheap oil. I honestly never really understood this until I started studying this. I am an engineer by training and am used to getting a spec and following it strictly. But there is more going on here with the car and oil companies playing games and it's more related to things like emissions and MPG than what will actually protect your car. I personally would rather lose a few MPG in a trade-off for protection for my engine. These oils often claim to be true synthetic (aka chemically synthesized) but it is complete and utter bull**** -- they are things like blends of mostly group 1 and 2 base stocks and if they have group 4 or 5 they are just a small percentage. It's fine to be a blended oil, most all are, I just mean the composition is garbage and the additive packages are cheap. It's like anything else, oil companies want to shave costs and make more money (like Exxon did when they bought Mobil 1 back in the day) but they are doing so at the expense of the oil quality that you are putting into your $100K+ car (and that I'm putting into my $50K 2014 Audi Q5 2.0T and that I was putting into my $200K 911TT). I work for a investment bank for a living. If we lied to our customers like this I would be called up in front of the Senate Finance Committee and I would have to listen to Elizabeth Warren berate me for 3 days straight telling me what a scumbag POS I am for telling lies like that. But somehow, inexplicably, the oil companies can do it and it's just fine, no problem, lie through your teeth and we will all just sit here and smile.
FWIW if you are smart and look around you can get Driven oil much cheaper. I have about 50 quarts sitting in my basement that I bought for about $7-8/quart. When they run a special just stock up and buy a bunch of cases.
Any other thoughts/explanations? And would that out weigh the benefits of 300V - better UOA's, 1-2 mpg increase in steady state 170 mi drives, and subjectively a smoother engine?
I actually don't have any experience with Motul products but I used to run Mobil 1 in the TT over 10 years ago before Exxon bought it. I have been happy with Driven DI40 though and my UOA with it looked fantastic and even more so considering my engine has 90K miles. Everyone in the Audi world says the 2.0T is trash and you absolutely have to get a 3.0 but I am proving them wrong every day that passes; my engine runs as well or better than it did the day it was new and it burns almost no oil. So to all the people saying it's trash and can't even make it 50K miles, I say to those people you are right -- if you run crap oil at 10K OCI's you could get what's coming to you. Especially in light of the soot formation comments I made above. These people do not understand or even have the first clue of the implications of direct injection technology. I didn't believe it either until I started reading about it and saw it with my own two eyes. In this sense the Porsche community is very lucky to a company like LN Engineering and people like Charles, that is a huge benefit to owning on this platform without question.
IMHO I find the price of Driven DI40 or oil in general to be a non-issue. Using good quality oil in these cars is IMHO the single most important thing you can do to maintain and take care of your car. It's important to remember that oil is important for not only lubrication but one of its primary functions is also heat transfer. Crap oils do things like shear easily at high temps and you have oil with the viscosity of water that you are depending on to protect your engine internals. Many issues like oil consumption can actually be traced back to root causes like using cheap oil and/or long OCIs (I do 5K max which is about every 6 months).
I have spent the last year studying this topic in excruciating detail and the short of it is that it's pennywise and pound foolish to run a cheap oil. I honestly never really understood this until I started studying this. I am an engineer by training and am used to getting a spec and following it strictly. But there is more going on here with the car and oil companies playing games and it's more related to things like emissions and MPG than what will actually protect your car. I personally would rather lose a few MPG in a trade-off for protection for my engine. These oils often claim to be true synthetic (aka chemically synthesized) but it is complete and utter bull**** -- they are things like blends of mostly group 1 and 2 base stocks and if they have group 4 or 5 they are just a small percentage. It's fine to be a blended oil, most all are, I just mean the composition is garbage and the additive packages are cheap. It's like anything else, oil companies want to shave costs and make more money (like Exxon did when they bought Mobil 1 back in the day) but they are doing so at the expense of the oil quality that you are putting into your $100K+ car (and that I'm putting into my $50K 2014 Audi Q5 2.0T and that I was putting into my $200K 911TT). I work for a investment bank for a living. If we lied to our customers like this I would be called up in front of the Senate Finance Committee and I would have to listen to Elizabeth Warren berate me for 3 days straight telling me what a scumbag POS I am for telling lies like that. But somehow, inexplicably, the oil companies can do it and it's just fine, no problem, lie through your teeth and we will all just sit here and smile.
FWIW if you are smart and look around you can get Driven oil much cheaper. I have about 50 quarts sitting in my basement that I bought for about $7-8/quart. When they run a special just stock up and buy a bunch of cases.
I agree with you in many ways. In fact, I did buy two cases of DT 40 about 24 months ago on sale @ $8 a qt. All I could get was two cases at the time or would have bought more. But it has not been on sale since, unfortunately. In fact, the price has gone up. I check regularly. New, unopened, oil shelf life is 2 years according to many. I was pleased with the Driven product. I would buy and use DT 40 or Motul 300V at $8 a qt. .....but not $12 a qt. for three Porsches changing every 6 months/5k miles. If you got the coin and/or just one one car, go for it! But an alternative is to a use high quality, readily available, A40 approved oil (LiquiMoly, Motul, M1, etc.) in the correct viscosity for your climate and boost the additives yourself for about $7 a qt. The Driven product is excellent, no argument. I just do not feel for my needs that it is worth $12 a qt. when I can replicate the additive package at about $7 a qt. and avoid the 72% mark up for a boutique oil. I also have NA DI flat six engines (for a reason) and realize that forced induction engines place greater demands on the engine oil so understand why many with turbos pay extra for Driven or Motul 300V. Oil is even more critical in a forced induction engine. So, you spend your $ on your car the way you want. I'll spend my money on my car the way I want. We all do not have to wear the same size shoe and that's OK with me. Just voicing that their are alternatives out there,......not trying to ruin your weekend.
You are not ruining my weekend. My wife took my two kids to Germany so I'm home alone to do whatever I want for the next two weeks until I meet them so this cannot be ruined I am definitely ok with everyone running whatever oil they want and I know I'm in the minority. I just think of the oil cost as a % of the value of my engine or what it would cost to replace or do major work on. Only speaking from what I have learned and mPAOs are very important, it's not only the additive package.
Agree about climate. Driven currently sells 5 different direct injection oils but I run DI40 because 0W-40 is most appropriate for my climate.
I use the oil in the order that I got it and only use OE filters/parts. I believe you should be able to keep a good quality oil for closer to 5 years (so long as it's sealed/unopened so it doesn't oxidize etc).
Correct, blowby isn't the cause for this contamination. Soot contamination of engine oil in direct injected engines is a problem. What problems does this soot cause? Stretched timing chains.
I don't think anyone anticipated that gasoline direct injected engines would create as much soot as a modern diesel engine. That's why gasoline particulate filters are coming (and already required in Europe).
I've read most every SAE whitepaper related to GDI engines and LSPI. All these issues are very well documented.
Charles, what is your opinion to adding the LM Ceratec to Liqui Moly 0W40? The 300ml bottle is good for 5 liters of oil. Considering the oil capacity of the 991.2, how many ml of Ceratec should be added? Would you recommend Ceratec at every oil change? Thanks.
Charles, what is your opinion to adding the LM Ceratec to Liqui Moly 0W40? The 300ml bottle is good for 5 liters of oil. Considering the oil capacity of the 991.2, how many ml of Ceratec should be added? Would you recommend Ceratec at every oil change? Thanks.
It can't hurt. I think supplementing the LM oil with either Ceratec or their MoS2 anti-friction additive along with a shorter drain interval is a good idea. However I would choose a 5w40 versus a 0w40 unless have sub-zero cold starts.
It can't hurt. I think supplementing the LM oil with either Ceratec or their MoS2 anti-friction additive along with a shorter drain interval is a good idea. However I would choose a 5w40 versus a 0w40 unless have sub-zero cold starts.
I think Motul 300V is an excellent oil right up there with the Driven products. The additive package is outstanding. Only issue I have is price ($13 @ L.) like Driven oil ($12 @ qt.).
Had to think about you yesterday. I drove from Legoland in Denmark back to Berlin and the car my father in law let me borrow popped a low oil warning. Had to pay 249 Danish Kroner (about $40) for this… which is pretty crap oil but the best I could find in a pinch…. Makes DI40, even at retail pricing, look ridiculously cheap
Had to think about you yesterday. I drove from Legoland in Denmark back to Berlin and the car my father in law let me borrow popped a low oil warning. Had to pay 249 Danish Kroner (about $40) for this… which is pretty crap oil but the best I could find in a pinch…. Makes DI40, even at retail pricing, look ridiculously cheap
Thank you for thinking of me. Another reason to not live in Europe! I can not use DI 40 anyway. It’s viscosity (0W-40) is to light for my climate in winter let alone summer.
No worries…my wife is German so I come here often.
FWIW, I was using DI40 just as an example because that’s what we were discussing previously but there are several Driven products that would be more suitable, possibly DI50, for example, a 15W-50, but I’m not sure exactly where you reside…..and they are all more or less the same price.
Not trying to be a smart *** as I have enjoyed talking with you, just pointing out that, as a good friend put it, Americans are coddled in terms of what things cost. IMHO $15/quart of oil, especially in the context of a high-end Porsche engine, is really irrelevant in my view. Engines are expensive compared to oil and you have much more to lose running an inferior oil.
Now, engines with tight tolerances are particular on oil viscosity. We aren't dealing with a small block chevy where the clearance for the rods are the grand canyon.
Once you switch to a thicker viscosity, the engine "compensates" for the thicker oil. Clearances become larger. Going to a thinner viscosity, there's a greater chance of limiting the engines life down the road. You'll burn more oil, there'll be less oil pressure, etc... Now, will you notice a difference between 0w and 5w? Probably not, but I won't take that risk, personally.
I am very interested to know how you think the journals and bearings “compensate” for the more viscous oil. Using a higher viscosity oil does not increase tolerances; hence, the reason that oil pressure will increase with the use of more viscous oil. Viscosity is merely a measurement of a particular oil’s resistance to flow. As we all know, this is effected by temperature. In South Florida, we see very high temperatures pretty much year round.
So, going to 5W40 will NOT harm the engine in any way whatsoever. Having said that, the oil should also be Porsche approved. Motul or LiquiMoly are both better choices than Mobil 1 if you ask me. Mobil1 doesn’t have the long term shear strength that the proper models of Motul and LuquiMoly oils do. At least, not over time. Personally, I change my oil at half the recommended interval recommend by Porsche anyway.
No worries…my wife is German so I come here often.
FWIW, I was using DI40 just as an example because that’s what we were discussing previously but there are several Driven products that would be more suitable, possibly DI50, for example, a 15W-50, but I’m not sure exactly where you reside…..and they are all more or less the same price.
Not trying to be a smart *** as I have enjoyed talking with you, just pointing out that, as a good friend put it, Americans are coddled in terms of what things cost. IMHO $15/quart of oil, especially in the context of a high-end Porsche engine, is really irrelevant in my view. Engines are expensive compared to oil and you have much more to lose running an inferior oil.
Well, I am surprisd you are trying to resurrect this old difference of opinion as most all on this thread (including me) grew tired of it sometime ago. You must be really bored while on your European vacation! Ha ha. Cannot use DI 50 as also wrong viscocity considering variocam requirements. That is why I am forced to use DT 40 whenever I do use a Driven product..,.which is a good oil.
There is a difference between "coddled" and making informed decisions. Is it a question of money or considering all the factors and making an intelligent decision supported by data? I can reproduce DT 40 characteristics at a cost of about $7 a bottle with an even higher (yes, that means better) HTHS rating than DT 40. So actually it is a better oil IMHO. I just disagree with the condescending statement that all other oils are "inferior" to Driven (which I do agree is a very good oil) just because it costs less. As an engineer, I understand it and believe my solution is actually a superior oil to the Driven products without the mark up of a boutique oil. My opinion is supported by long term and consistent UOAs on five Porsches. But that is MY opinion only. Just because I do it for my vehicles and it wprks for me does not mean you have to do it for yours or that it will work for you. . I understand why investment bankers and those without technical backgrounds and only one Porsche would pay extra for the Driven products so they do not have to mess with it. That is a good solution for many people ....especially for a turbo,....but it is just not the ONLY solution. Alternatives do exist. So, please do not take our diference of opinion personal. Driven is a great oil and I would buy and use DT 40 at $8 a qt.
Enjoy your vacation in Europe....and glad cost of oil is not a concern for you. Driven is good oil. Cannot believe the energy/petroleum costs over there....Wow.....no wonder they are pushing EV's!!
07-10-2021, 10:11 AM
I am definitely ok with everyone running whatever oil they want and I know I'm in the minority. I just think of the oil cost as a % of the value of my engine or what it would cost to replace or do major work on. Only speaking from what I have learned and mPAOs are very important, it's not only the additive package.
