JCtx

Hey gang, first, a little history. My first and only Porsche was a brand new 2016 Cayman GTS loaded to the gills ($100K+), which I loved driving, but had to sell it because my wife didn't want to ride on it. First of all, it had sport suspension (a must IMO), but back then, no PASM available, so it was firmer than she could stand. And second of all, it had the sport exhaust (another must IMO), which sounded phenomenal when active, but unfortunately (and surprisingly), it was about 90% as loud inside (much quieter outside though) when OFF, which made no sense (my ex-Corvette with valves, was super quiet when off, like it should be). And that, coupled to the insane road and wind noise, made it as much to drive in a road trip as a trip to the dentist. And finally, my wife needs to recline her seat to sleep, and something more comfortable than the adaptive seats, so that means a 911 with (power) sport seats now. No sense in having a fun to drive car that just sits in the garage, since I work from home, and there's absolutely nowhere fun to drive close to home, so I basically only use the car on trips. And don't want to travel alone. Now let's jump to the subject .

If I can beat my damn cancer (will finish an experimental treatment in about 2 months), I want to buy a well optioned 911 Carrera S, with a budget in the $80Ks, meaning a 2017 or 2018. Don't want a 2016, because it was the first year, and want it with a warranty, even if it's just a little. Before my questions, 991.2s have to be quieter inside than a 2015, correct? Just curious. Would prefer a 2015 3.8NA, but are too old now, and very close in price to 991.2s, and most likely louder, so makes no sense to buy one. Want to do it right this time . Here are my questions for those with personal experience:
1. Is the ' acoustic package' still an option on 2017/18 991.2s, or is it standard now?
2. Whether optional or standard on 911Ss, what exactly does that package consist of? I remember it cost a grand on 991.1s, but don't know what specifically it included. I'd like to know.
3. Do 2017 and 2018 911Ss have double-pane windows? I think 2018s must have them at least in the front side windows, but not 100% sure, hence my question. Just lower a window and notice if there's a 'sandwich' in the middle of it.
4. I'd really like to have sport exhaust, even though it's probably not going to sound nearly as nice as with NA engines. But only if it's as quiet INSIDE in closed mode as the stock exhaust, to be able to travel comfortably. Or only slightly louder, but that you can still travel in relative quietness. Please feel free to elaborate all you want.
5. Finally, TIRES. How is the tire noise with 991.2s? And do quieter ultra high performance all-season tires (they should be available in stock sizes, right?), like Pilot Sport A/S3s, make a noticeable difference?

I think that's it for now. Don't know when I'd be able to drive one of those, but it'd be for just a short distance, so need input from actual owners like you. Many thanks.
JC

Rich_Jenkins

First, the most important thing: I HOPE YOU KICK CANCER'S BUTT. Best of luck.


On your question: it appears the USA Acoustic Package for the 991.2 is option code 171:

https://www.stuttcars.com/technical/option-codes/991.2/




Finding a 991.2 with that option would be interesting, I never heard of it until you asked. I did not see one during my search for an early 991.2 last summer.

Dunno about the windows. Mine don't look all that special. For sure I can't see anything "double" about the glass. Maybe that is an "S" thing? The Service Information 2017 Technik Introduction (911 (991) Generation II) document doesn't mention double wall glass anywhere.

On the PSE, I would defer to the guys with experience in both 991.1 and 991.2, but I would be astonished if there was any objective difference between a NA sports exhaust and a T sports exhaust equipped car. There are so many other factors that go into "perception" of sound within a car like personal hearing ability, sensitivity to loud noises, driving style, tire selection, etc. But maybe there is since the change from NA to T is the big delta between 991.1 and 991.2?

On tires: FWIW I switched recently from Pirelli OEM tires to Michelin PS4S at 26K. I think the Michelin's ride a bit smoother, are a bit quieter, and for sure do not lose air like the Pirellis. I'm happy with the Michelins but there's not really a whole lot of difference. You could probably attribute some of the change to the fact the Pirellis were worn and the Michelins are new. But I just like Michelins.

Anyway, I guess I'm leading to this: really, no one but you can make the determination on whether a car does, or does not, meet your definition of "travel comfortably". So best is to go take a few test drives to figure this out, but of course you said that was hard. Hopefully you will get input from the folks here, who have forgotten more about Porsche's than I will ever know.

JCtx

Thank you Rich. May I ask you how quiet is your car, at say, 80 mph? If you want to compare it to others, go ahead. Just to start having some objective info. So you don't have PSE, correct? Does your car sound nice enough both inside and outside that you don't wish you had PSE? Please be honest. Ha ha. Oh, and the double-pane front side windows I think became law in 2018, but not sure if across the board or not. Even my 2018 F-150 Platinum has double-pane front side windows. You can easily see the 'sandwiched' membrane between the 2 panes when you lower the window. Curious if 2018s do, since your 2017 doesn't; maybe somebody will tell us later. That kind of glass not only quiets the cabin (also called acoustic glass), but prevents any glass pieces from falling inside, just like windshields, so a safety feature as well.

As far as sport exhaust, I've never heard one in a 911, so I just mentioned my experience with my Cayman. No difference in cabin noise with switch on or off, with windows closed. With windows open, you could definitely hear the difference outside. That was frustrating. Hopefully with 991.2s, you can easily tell the difference in the cabin (windows closed) between on and off. Can you? Plus I'd like to know the difference in cabin noise between PSE off (windows closed), and stock exhaust. Ideally, it'd be the same, in which case I'd definitely want PSE. If PSE off is louder than stock, then it'd be a compromise that depending how louder, I might or might not be able to justify it. And without personal experience, might have to err on the side of caution and not get it, but hopefully I can.

Okay, so acoustic package is still an option, unfortunately. And a unicorn one at that as well. Therefore, I hope a 'regular' car is quiet enough to travel, so I don't have to look for one, which might be next to impossible to find used. Also need to find out what exactly is done to cars equipped with option 171, to see how extensive (or not) cabin noise supression might be. Thank you again for your help, and good wishes.

WCE

You don't want a 911, you want a Panamera!

Baba Ghanoush

I hate to say it, but I agree with this statement. I've owned both, and what you just described is essentially a Panamera. I have zero issues driving my 991.2 for longer road trips, but I don't mind it a bit louder in the cabin. However, if your wife had issues with your Cayman, she is going to have a lot of the same concerns in the 911. I have the PSE and it is noticeably different when you turn it off, but it still has a growl. The Panamera I had also had PSE, but it was noticeably more quiet in the cabin when turning it on/off. Also, the road noise in a 911 is MUCH more so than in a Panamera. If you want comfort, some quietness but the option for a little growl (PSE), ability to recline at will, reduction of road noise, and still have some get up and go, you should really look into snagging a Panamera S or above.

Carlo_Carrera

...

Rich_Jenkins

Sure thing, no problem.

I could not tell for sure about the glass. I went out to the garage and looked at it. I have no idea, to be honest. I've had a truck (2016 Dodge 2500) and I don't recall if that had either. Same with Mrs. Rich's Lexus. Could be; I defer to experts (I am not one) about sandwich glass.

Ok, so, for what it's worth: My previous fun cars before I bought my '17 991.2 C2 last year are pretty low end by Rennlist standards; '03 E46 ZHP, '09 E92 M3, and my last car, a '14 981S. The Cayman S was lots of fun; winding the NA 3.4 out past 5K was pretty enjoyable. You did have to keep it on the boil of course. So I'll compare my C2 to that, is about the best I can do.

Both cars are fine for me at freeway+speeds for long distances. The T motor in the 911 has more grunt down low, and a somewhat more muted, subjectively, sound. This may have to do with fact you don't really find yourself winding the nuts off the 3.0 T motor; you just don't have to. My Cayman S was always begging to be revved. It had a 6MT. My 911 is fairly basic; 7MT and SC (my only two real requirements), plus a few doodads.

Neither my 981S nor 991.2 had/have PSE, so I can't comment. I see a lot of guys get PSE. That's cool. I personally did not care when I was looking for my CPO. If I were ordering a car, I would not opt for it (just personal preference). (I will say the regular quad pipe with the "fake" double outlets on my base car looks better than the twin pipes of the sports exhaust. I've always thought it should be the other way around, like in say a BMW M3.) But hey, that's what is so cool about Porsche ownership; everyone is passionate about their choices.

The 991.2 is a vastly superior (IMHO) long distance touring car than my 981S. We have made two trips; one from the dealer in Long Island NY to Tampa in two days when I bought it, and one back and forth from Tampa to the PEC ATL for a driving session I booked with a 911T. The car just eats up the miles. Passing in 5th, 6th, or even 7th at speed is easy; lean on on the throttle and bam. Obviously downshifting a cog or two sometimes is needed. "To me" road noise is fine. It is also my daily driver. I go back and forth to work every day (ok, well I used to lol. Mainly WH now (I'm a project engineer in aerospace/aviation training.)

Best of luck. Hope you end up with something that will work for you.

jaymarcia

Elp_jc - hope you do kick your cancer, best wishes to you and your family.

I recently purchased a 2017 991.2 S coupe with the sports package (sports chrono and PSE to name a few). I have driven several 911’s, S and base. To be honest, I enjoy the PSE and drive with it on “Sport” 99% of the time. The sound is amazing, at least to me, and almost drive with windows down and sunroof open. When my wife is in the car, I leave the exhaust on normal, and it is toned down quite a bit. She says other than some bumps, the drive is nicer than what she expected. With windows and sunroof closed, it is fairly quiet. Again, in my opinion.

I agree you should try and drive one with and one without. When I drove the 991.2 base without PSE (was a manual), I didn’t feel like it was “worth” the money and if I was going to spend that much money, I might as well get what I want. Again, just my humble opinion.

Good luck!

JCtx

Thank you very much for all the great comments. To begin with, yes, I know a 911 is borderline close to my needs, but I obviously want a sportier car, if it meets those needs. And if it doesn't, then a Panamera-like car is exactly what I'd settle for. I doubt it'd be a Panamera, since I like the old one inside, but it's ugly as sin outside. And the new one I don't like it inside, plus it'd be above my budget (<$90K) well equipped anyway.

Hey Rich, I also owned an '09 BMW E92 coupe (manual), and a 2016 Cayman GTS (but PDK), so can perfectly relate to your comparisons with those 2. Thank you.

I agree the quad pipes look MUCH better than the sport exhaust tips on 991.2s (992s corrected that), so that's an incentive to stay stock. Ha ha. Since I need to make the car as quiet as possible, if it's not going to be as quiet as stock (when off), then would just get a regular exhaust. May I ask if all 991.2 Ss have the intake (symposer) pipe into the cabin? I'd like to remove or plug that if they do. I don't want that anymore either. I don't like intake noise anyway. I basically want a quiet sports car . If I can't have both a quiet and a noisy engine, I prefer a quiet engine while still enjoy driving a relatively light sports car. Otherwise I'd end up driving a quiet but heavy sedan. Will definitely look for a 991.2 with the 'acoustic package', which makes the interior quieter, but they're like unicorns. Need to call the newish local dealer and see if they have a used example of those years to drive, so I drive exactly what I'd get, and see if it's the car for me, or I need to pass. Hope it's the former. He he. Thanks again gang.

Bob Z.

PSE with Sport Cats sounds fantastic.

Read this: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1190...nsulation.html

ddaudi

I had a similar issue as the OP. For several years I owned a 2010 997.2 GT3 that was additionally modified for track use. My wife of course hated it. I sold it, moved, settled down in central OR and could not shake the bug. I decided to look for a comfortable 911 that she might tolerate, even for longer drives. I was concerned about exhaust, engine, and road noise. In Dec. '18 I purchased a very nice 2017 991.2 C2S. It has Sport Chrono and PSE. I don't find exhaust noise to be much of an issue. It gets slightly louder inside (windows up) with PSE activated. I don't know if PSE off is any louder than non-PSE exhaust. Exhaust noise is really not a significant issue for us. Engine noise is moderate. Certainly not too bad when not running very high RPM. To my ears, road noise dominates. I switched from the factory Pirellis to Bridgestone 980 all-weather tires (needed for the local cold winter temps) and road noise dropped noticeably. Running lower pressures helped as well. I started exploring having Dynamat (or something similar) to further reduce road noise. That would add maybe 100 lbs of rubbery/tarry sticky stuff to the chassis under the carpets and behind door panels. I've never had it done but I think it would significantly dampen and reduce tire-road noise from penetrating the cabin. I have put in the DSC suspension controller and that makes it a bit more comfortable re ride. My wife is fine with it as it sits for local drives, but we haven't been able to take any long trips. With the financial collapse I've decided to hold off putting any more money into it so thoughts of a Dynamat installation is on hold. I think it would probably cost about $1,000.

stout

Curious as to your take on fun factor (both for the odd fun solo drive and "overall," meaning the total experience) between your old GT3 and your 991.2 C2S. The rear tires are one of the predominant problems in modern 911s, and Porsche's obsession with, and need for, ever larger rear wheels/tires exacerbates the problem. First 911 to really get me thinking about that was the 997.1 GT2, which had insane rear tire noise in the cabin to the point that I thought I'd have to Dynamat the rear wheel humps if I had one. All of the 991.2s on 20-inch wheels have a minimum of 305-20s out back, and the result is predictable even if there's more sound deadening. I'm sometimes amazed by how much tire noise there is from the rear of the car outside the car when the windows are down on certain kinds of pavement. The new Speedster avoided this by largely isolating the front seats from the rear wheel housings, and you see similar effects in Caymans and Boxsters. The 911's cabin is an echo chamber for tire noise, replete with a huge piece of glass (un)usefully angled over the rear wheel wells.

Your move to Bridgetone all-season tires and result is interesting to me, as I've been wondering about doing the same. I just don't need P4S grip with 331 lb-ft of torque—and am hopeful that the upcoming Pilot All Season 4 has sizes for the 991.2. Looks like the rear A/S 4 for the latest Corvette are a match, and the section width is a match for the N-spec P4S, which is wider than many 305s. We'll have to wait and see about the tread width, and front 245s. If I was going to mess with sound deadening, and I have thought about it, I'd move towards Carrera T deadening near the engine (a bit more engine noise) with more deadening on the rear wheel wells. I was going to do an exhaust on my car, but have actually started to really value its stealth speed. Funny how different setups/attributes can have equal appeal…

For the OP, if you're after an "acoustic" package on the 991.2, determining the Carrera T sound deadening (or lack thereof) is probably what you're looking for: a sort of "Motor Sound Package" through deletion/substitution. I wonder if the engine's voice could be further heightened by quieting rear tire noise.

subwoofer

The best IMO and most cost effective 'acoustic package' is a good set of earplugs or iPods pro with noise cancellation. Much cheaper to attenuate my hearing than trying to 'fix' the car. That takes care of the noise on longish highway drives. Backroads, I prefer to hear the car. Comfort settings, partial load takes care of the ride. I have experimented with tire brands and the effects are marginal on noise and ride quality. Michelins seem better to me than Pirellis. Smaller wheels, 19s, help with the ride quality as I find with my winter setup.

911s are noisy cars and everybody knows that. But my 991.2 4s is very comfortable with the 18-ways seats and standard PASM. More than enough room to push the seats back for my spouse. Glass roof and a light interior helps avoid the feel of a small cabin. Music system I find to be useless in such a noisy car. Never listen to it. Waste of 1600 bucks. The passenger is better off listening to music on their phone with headphones.
Backroads is where the car shows its substantial merits. It is a fantastic car. Not really a highway car (again IMO) but can serve as one. For exclusive highway driving, I woud pick a different car.

rockrdude

This is good advice. If noise is an issue but you still want to enjoy the car sound, a pair of custom -9db musician earplugs are the perfect solution. I actually use them on long highway drives in my targa with the top down as wind noise really tires me, but I still want to feel and hear everything. You can get those earplugs molded at an audiologist for about 200-250$. They work like magic and you hear everything clearly, not like foam plugs that muffle everything. I also use them at concerts, loud restaurants and bars, and they are quite discreet too.

That being said the 911 is still a noisy car so test drive before you buy

All my thoughts are with you , I hope that very soon this cancer will be behind you and you'll be driving your new baby around :-)

blraider97

Sounds to me like you should pass on the 911. My wife hates riding in mine due to the road noise and it being fairly low (only got worse after she tweaked her back getting out of it a few months back). If her needing to be in it was an absolute necessity due to circumstances like yours, which it’s not since this is my weekend toy and we have other more comfortable cars for road trips, I would have never gotten my 991.2. Maybe a Macan S would be a good option?