When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I've spent the time going through this old thread so why not keep it going?
It feels like in today's market, ANY 991 for ~$50k would be a steal, right? Probably safe to assume at this point that a 991 would be off the table at this price point.
Also, seeing some of the pictures in this thread makes me deeply miss my M4, I loved that car it was my first truly "aspirational" car as I'd wanted an M car for about 10 years before I finally bought one new. But that being said, I traded the M4 in on a 981 Boxster GTS and then bought an Audi S3 as a daily driver and the Audi is actually... a better car. Not quite as fast, doesn't look as good (but is handsome in its own way)- but is every bit as fun to drive, and also rides better with the adaptive suspension. You can find an S3 for mid-20s with reasonable miles, and I have to think they'd be cheaper to maintain. I think it's an underrated car and an incredible bargain for anyone like the OP, stretching to find a fun, reasonably priced "enthusiast's" car. The Golf R would probably be even more so, especially if you want a manual transmission, but personally I'm just not the biggest fan of the hot hatch aesthetic. If the budget is truly $50k, then I'd still pick an RS3 over the M cars, but that's just a subjective view after owning both an F82 and an S3.
Also seems that the consensus for the Mercedes cars is they're just fancy German muscle cars. I haven't owned or driven any, but that's also kind of the point. They look good, sound good- but just don't seem all that special or exciting to me personally. 100% subjective of course but it doesn't feel that I'm in the minority. Again, an RS3 seems like a better all around car; they tend to push a bit in the corners but arguably sound even better than the AMG cars and can be made to be about the fastest cars on the road through the aftermarket. All for around $50k used.
The other car that's been brought up but shot down by the OP, but for anyone else reading- the M2C. What a fantastic little car. I had the privilege of driving the M2 when it made its debut at the BMW Performance Center in South Carolina back circa spring 2016; I had just bought my M4 about a year prior but driving the M2 on track actually got me to consider swapping out my lease. The added benefits of the Competition car has to put it in serious consideration for anyone looking for cars in this market.
Of course none of these cars hold a candle to a 991, but really while you CAN daily drive a 991 it doesn't necessarily mean you SHOULD if you put any substantial amount of miles on them.
Last edited by manifold danger; 10-26-2020 at 10:07 AM.
Ill add in just because Ive owned both as well. Have owned the below within the last few years.
F80 M3
Macan S
F82 M4
991.2 S
Macan GTS
718 Cayman GTS
991.2 T
F90 M5C
718 GT4
If you dont need the space, I think a 911 makes a better daily than an M4. My main reason; Porsche suspension is far more comfortable. The M3/4 ride so rough and unless the pavement is glass smooth, it crashes over everything whereas the Porsches soak up bumps of which no other car IMO does. Also the Porsches are built better, and are simply more fun to drive. Even my M5C was a bit harsh whereas the others just ride so well.
Last edited by mr gregash; 10-26-2020 at 11:27 AM.
Did you guys notice the new M3 Competition is coming with the ZF 8HP automatic instead of a DCT? People have their panties in a bunch about it but it's a great box.
I traded my M4 to my 991.1 and haven't looked back. The only thing I miss about the M is the large trunk which made it slightly more usable, but I haven't ran into many issues so far.
I had a 987s 6spd, M4 DCT and my 911 is a PDK. I drove a E92 M3 6spd before buying my M4 and didn't love the transmission compared to the Porsche so went with the DCT to make it easier for my wife to drive as well.
I"ll say the DCT while great during my test drive was not great for daily driving like the PDK is. There were definitely a few "hunting for gear" times and the throttle felt jerky in comparison to PDK.
I really had to adjust a lot of my driving style to make smooth transitions (look up DCT bucking).
Ride as someone mentioned before is night and day.. Both my Cayman and 911 are much more compliant on the street AND more capable in the bends. It's the magic of what Porsche does IMO.
The M4 while a great value and performs awesome when looking dollar to dollar is just a different experience of car. Mostly if you look at track times, cost and HP the M4 will be an easy choice.
Sitting down and driving them back to back you realize Porsche just makes special cars that things on paper can't quantify.
Last edited by p010sp0rt8; 10-26-2020 at 06:59 PM.
I traded my M4 to my 991.1 and haven't looked back. The only thing I miss about the M is the large trunk which made it slightly more usable, but I haven't ran into many issues so far.
I had a 987s 6spd, M4 DCT and my 911 is a PDK. I drove a E92 M3 6spd before buying my M4 and didn't love the transmission compared to the Porsche so went with the DCT to make it easier for my wife to drive as well.
I"ll say the DCT while great during my test drive was not great for daily driving like the PDK is. There were definitely a few "hunting for gear" times and the throttle felt jerky in comparison to PDK.
I really had to adjust a lot of my driving style to make smooth transitions (look up DCT bucking).
Ride as someone mentioned before is night and day.. Both my Cayman and 911 are much more compliant on the street AND more capable in the bends. It's the magic of what Porsche does IMO.
The M4 while a great value and performs awesome when looking dollar to dollar is just a different experience of car. Mostly if you look at track times, cost and HP the M4 will be an easy choice.
Sitting down and driving them back to back you realize Porsche just makes special cars that things on paper can't quantify.
SMG sucked. DCT is better but not perfect. The new M3/M4 will be great, and even better with the ZF 8HP with fewer worries. I've never heard of one failing. I don't know why BMW could not make the suspension more compliant in comfort mode. I lost my $500 deposit when I bailed on the M3 I was going to buy. I love M3s and M4s. Look what GM did with Magna Ride magnetorheological shocks.that Ferrari licensed from them. I'm not sure how Porsche changes their damper settings. The 991 is fabulous. If the OP doesn't need a stick shift he really should look at the Alfa. It's like a BMW E46 M3 on massive steroids. At more than two years it's so inspiring. I just did Hiway 39 and it was a hoot. .
Up until a week or so ago, I owned both the M4 and a 991. The cars are worlds apart so you'll have to be careful when choosing because the driving experiences are different. My M4 had the DCT transmission.
BMW M4 Convertible
Good stuff - On a nice sunny day, it's fantastic to drive the car. Wind deflector works great and the AC can keep up even with the top down. The engine is amazing. It's clearly under-rated at the factory and likely producing somewhere in the 480bhp range. The torque curve is flat from 1,800 rpm and up. And if you don't think that's enough power: Bootmod3 is your friend. And, so far they've proven to be bulletproof engines with no weak points. The tech is far better. 360 cameras, auto-parking feature, heads-up display, and a very sophisticated LED headlight system (needs to be enabled via aftermarket). I even had a set of cameras to help you pull out of alley ways when you can't see oncoming traffic! Multiple settings for throttle response, suspension, and steering weight. Fit and finish is excellent, quality of materials same as Porsche. Very nicely done. It grips very well on corners. And in the theme of "it's all relative..." aftermarket parts are way cheaper than Porsche.
Bad stuff - Very heavy, 4100lbs and you feel it when you drive at high speed. Cowl shake is evident and the folding hardtop is complicated (serviced three times under warranty for failure to operate). The ride is harsher than the Porsche, you will feel bad roads more in the M4 than the 991. Trunk is useless once the top is folded down despite the "transformer" feature of being able to raise the folded stack with a button. Thirsty on fuel, which isn't so much a financial hardship as it is a pain in the ***: fuel tank is shared with a typical 4-Series BMW, it's real small at 16 gallons and 14mpg. But the single worst thing and one of the reasons I gave up on the car: the DCT transmission. It's absolutely horrible in auto mode. You can read the details on Internet forums, but not just jerky from a start, but it's completely unpredictable. Sometimes it's smooth other times it's like you side-stepped the clutch. The 1-2 shift wasn't great either, harsh and unpredictable. The only time the DCT is smooth is when you're driving at 9/10 or higher. Then suddenly the DCT is amazing. Shifts are hyper fast and always in the right gear. Ultimately I drove the car in full manual mode using the flappy paddles. I'd suggest an extended test drive in heavy traffic before buying.
Porsche 991 - Mine is a normally aspirated engine, so I can't speak to the newest turbo ones.
Good stuff - The engine is amazing. It may not be the fastest but it's so smooth and linear that I enjoy spinning it up through the gears a lot. The manual transmission is great, very easy to go up and down through the gears. Smooth, good spacing, no complaints at all. It is the classic Porsche 911 experience. Fit and finish is excellent, full-leather package covers up a lot of the plastic parts. The car feels nimble, light, the steering - numb - but precise. Very easy to carve out a line. The car weighs 900lbs less than a M4 Convertible. Ride is more compliant even over rough stuff. Both cars ran 20" wheels. The car has also proven to be reliable. No real big hassles with it at all. Last good thing: no one notices me in the 911. In the M4, I had a lot of hassles with kids wanting to race at stoplights or on the freeway.
Bad Stuff - It's smaller, the back seats are useless. Humans can fit in the rear of the M4. In the city, the M4 will feel way more powerful. The torque curve just clobbers the 911.1, it's a huge difference. Everything costs more for the Porsche. Servicing, aftermarket parts, OEM parts, everything. The level of tech in the car is much lower. No HUD, 360 camera, adjustment steering feel, voice recognition is very limited, etc. It's a much more basic setup.
In the end, they are two very different cars. There are a TON of happy owners of both who rave about how awesome their cars are. However, they don't drive anything like each other. It's worth pointing out that the sold the M4 and continue to have the 991.
Up until a week or so ago, I owned both the M4 and a 991. The cars are worlds apart so you'll have to be careful when choosing because the driving experiences are different. My M4 had the DCT transmission.
BMW M4 Convertible
Good stuff - On a nice sunny day, it's fantastic to drive the car. Wind deflector works great and the AC can keep up even with the top down. The engine is amazing. It's clearly under-rated at the factory and likely producing somewhere in the 480bhp range. The torque curve is flat from 1,800 rpm and up. And if you don't think that's enough power: Bootmod3 is your friend. And, so far they've proven to be bulletproof engines with no weak points. The tech is far better. 360 cameras, auto-parking feature, heads-up display, and a very sophisticated LED headlight system (needs to be enabled via aftermarket). I even had a set of cameras to help you pull out of alley ways when you can't see oncoming traffic! Multiple settings for throttle response, suspension, and steering weight. Fit and finish is excellent, quality of materials same as Porsche. Very nicely done. It grips very well on corners. And in the theme of "it's all relative..." aftermarket parts are way cheaper than Porsche.
Bad stuff - Very heavy, 4100lbs and you feel it when you drive at high speed. Cowl shake is evident and the folding hardtop is complicated (serviced three times under warranty for failure to operate). The ride is harsher than the Porsche, you will feel bad roads more in the M4 than the 991. Trunk is useless once the top is folded down despite the "transformer" feature of being able to raise the folded stack with a button. Thirsty on fuel, which isn't so much a financial hardship as it is a pain in the ***: fuel tank is shared with a typical 4-Series BMW, it's real small at 16 gallons and 14mpg. But the single worst thing and one of the reasons I gave up on the car: the DCT transmission. It's absolutely horrible in auto mode. You can read the details on Internet forums, but not just jerky from a start, but it's completely unpredictable. Sometimes it's smooth other times it's like you side-stepped the clutch. The 1-2 shift wasn't great either, harsh and unpredictable. The only time the DCT is smooth is when you're driving at 9/10 or higher. Then suddenly the DCT is amazing. Shifts are hyper fast and always in the right gear. Ultimately I drove the car in full manual mode using the flappy paddles. I'd suggest an extended test drive in heavy traffic before buying.
Porsche 991 - Mine is a normally aspirated engine, so I can't speak to the newest turbo ones.
Good stuff - The engine is amazing. It may not be the fastest but it's so smooth and linear that I enjoy spinning it up through the gears a lot. The manual transmission is great, very easy to go up and down through the gears. Smooth, good spacing, no complaints at all. It is the classic Porsche 911 experience. Fit and finish is excellent, full-leather package covers up a lot of the plastic parts. The car feels nimble, light, the steering - numb - but precise. Very easy to carve out a line. The car weighs 900lbs less than a M4 Convertible. Ride is more compliant even over rough stuff. Both cars ran 20" wheels. The car has also proven to be reliable. No real big hassles with it at all. Last good thing: no one notices me in the 911. In the M4, I had a lot of hassles with kids wanting to race at stoplights or on the freeway.
Bad Stuff - It's smaller, the back seats are useless. Humans can fit in the rear of the M4. In the city, the M4 will feel way more powerful. The torque curve just clobbers the 911.1, it's a huge difference. Everything costs more for the Porsche. Servicing, aftermarket parts, OEM parts, everything. The level of tech in the car is much lower. No HUD, 360 camera, adjustment steering feel, voice recognition is very limited, etc. It's a much more basic setup.
In the end, they are two very different cars. There are a TON of happy owners of both who rave about how awesome their cars are. However, they don't drive anything like each other. It's worth pointing out that the sold the M4 and continue to have the 991.
thanks for your comparison but you are really comparing apples to oranges. You are comparing an auto M4 convertible to a manual 991.1 (i'm assuming non-convertible)
Up until a week or so ago, I owned both the M4 and a 991. The cars are worlds apart so you'll have to be careful when choosing because the driving experiences are different. My M4 had the DCT transmission.
BMW M4 Convertible
Good stuff - On a nice sunny day, it's fantastic to drive the car. Wind deflector works great and the AC can keep up even with the top down. The engine is amazing. It's clearly under-rated at the factory and likely producing somewhere in the 480bhp range. The torque curve is flat from 1,800 rpm and up. And if you don't think that's enough power: Bootmod3 is your friend. And, so far they've proven to be bulletproof engines with no weak points. The tech is far better. 360 cameras, auto-parking feature, heads-up display, and a very sophisticated LED headlight system (needs to be enabled via aftermarket). I even had a set of cameras to help you pull out of alley ways when you can't see oncoming traffic! Multiple settings for throttle response, suspension, and steering weight. Fit and finish is excellent, quality of materials same as Porsche. Very nicely done. It grips very well on corners. And in the theme of "it's all relative..." aftermarket parts are way cheaper than Porsche.
Bad stuff - Very heavy, 4100lbs and you feel it when you drive at high speed. Cowl shake is evident and the folding hardtop is complicated (serviced three times under warranty for failure to operate). The ride is harsher than the Porsche, you will feel bad roads more in the M4 than the 991. Trunk is useless once the top is folded down despite the "transformer" feature of being able to raise the folded stack with a button. Thirsty on fuel, which isn't so much a financial hardship as it is a pain in the ***: fuel tank is shared with a typical 4-Series BMW, it's real small at 16 gallons and 14mpg. But the single worst thing and one of the reasons I gave up on the car: the DCT transmission. It's absolutely horrible in auto mode. You can read the details on Internet forums, but not just jerky from a start, but it's completely unpredictable. Sometimes it's smooth other times it's like you side-stepped the clutch. The 1-2 shift wasn't great either, harsh and unpredictable. The only time the DCT is smooth is when you're driving at 9/10 or higher. Then suddenly the DCT is amazing. Shifts are hyper fast and always in the right gear. Ultimately I drove the car in full manual mode using the flappy paddles. I'd suggest an extended test drive in heavy traffic before buying.
Porsche 991 - Mine is a normally aspirated engine, so I can't speak to the newest turbo ones.
Good stuff - The engine is amazing. It may not be the fastest but it's so smooth and linear that I enjoy spinning it up through the gears a lot. The manual transmission is great, very easy to go up and down through the gears. Smooth, good spacing, no complaints at all. It is the classic Porsche 911 experience. Fit and finish is excellent, full-leather package covers up a lot of the plastic parts. The car feels nimble, light, the steering - numb - but precise. Very easy to carve out a line. The car weighs 900lbs less than a M4 Convertible. Ride is more compliant even over rough stuff. Both cars ran 20" wheels. The car has also proven to be reliable. No real big hassles with it at all. Last good thing: no one notices me in the 911. In the M4, I had a lot of hassles with kids wanting to race at stoplights or on the freeway.
Bad Stuff - It's smaller, the back seats are useless. Humans can fit in the rear of the M4. In the city, the M4 will feel way more powerful. The torque curve just clobbers the 911.1, it's a huge difference. Everything costs more for the Porsche. Servicing, aftermarket parts, OEM parts, everything. The level of tech in the car is much lower. No HUD, 360 camera, adjustment steering feel, voice recognition is very limited, etc. It's a much more basic setup.
In the end, they are two very different cars. There are a TON of happy owners of both who rave about how awesome their cars are. However, they don't drive anything like each other. It's worth pointing out that the sold the M4 and continue to have the 991.
I mostly agree but have two non semantical issues with your statement -
1. The tech is far superior in the 991.1. What you described is the infotainment and ancillary electronics. PASM, PDK, PDCC, PTV, suspension design(multilink vs strut on BMW) are all technology. This may matter for daily driving but may also matter differently for a toy.
2. Torque. the 991.1, even base was always praised for its tq before the 991.2 - even in direct comparison to an M4. If you don't like revving the engine the it just sin't the right car for you under any circumstances. That's okay - it just is a factor.
I mostly agree but have two non semantical issues with your statement -
1. The tech is far superior in the 991.1. What you described is the infotainment and ancillary electronics. PASM, PDK, PDCC, PTV, suspension design(multilink vs strut on BMW) are all technology. This may matter for daily driving but may also matter differently for a toy.
2. Torque. the 991.1, even base was always praised for its tq before the 991.2 - even in direct comparison to an M4. If you don't like revving the engine the it just sin't the right car for you under any circumstances. That's okay - it just is a factor.
in regards to issue #2; i felt the same exact way. I came from two F80 M3s and i decided i wanted a 911 I initially looked at the 991.1 because of how much people talked about it. I was very disappointed after test driving it. It felt slow off the line; probably because I was coming from a twin turbo inline 6. for daily driving I knew I wanted the 991.2.
in regards to issue #2; i felt the same exact way. I came from two F80 M3s and i decided i wanted a 911 I initially looked at the 991.1 because of how much people talked about it. I was very disappointed after test driving it. It felt slow off the line; probably because I was coming from a twin turbo inline 6. for daily driving I knew I wanted the 991.2.
Yes - everyone has their own car journey. I cam from an Jaguar XKRS. This is always why I roll my eyes when people call the 991 a "grand touring" car.... The XKRS had an engine that is still a masterpiece in the F type. Problem is that as great as the XK chassis is for devouring miles on a long trip and passing with ease and confidence, it just can't put that power down in a turn. TOO MUCH torque for the car. My pleasure is mountain driving and not track and I'm ~5/10 driver skill to be honest. I just don't have as much dun as some of you on a track and prefer the top down experience most. With 550 ft tq in a 4500 lb par that can't put it down.... this leads to more anxiety than enjoyment on mountain roads with potential loose gravel or wet leaves on the shadow side of the mountain. The high revving and low torque was welcome in my case and I even added a 987 for this reason.
If you liked the low end grunt of the F80 then the 3.0tt car was definitely the right move for you. No wrong answer, its a mechanical marvel itself.
I always love seeing some of the old reviews when the 991.1 was a perfect car and praised for it's low end torque, even in the base 3.4!
I'll say it's interesting reading all the opinions on the forum especially when talking about torque / 0-60 times etc,
I'm going to say if all that matters is 0-60 and torque get a Tesla P3D. you can pick up a used one for less than 50k USD
it'll blow the doors off the M and the 911 in any configuration on a straight line, and through the twisties it can hold its own as well.
Since we got our tesla the M got used less and less, since as a daily the Tesla was better at just about everything including off the line speed.
It also made pretty much every ICE car I test drove feel "slow" off the line. I've come to accept this new EV reality but still love driving and hearing the sound of an engine.
For weekend fun driving and mountain roads that's why I have the 911.
Last edited by p010sp0rt8; 10-27-2020 at 12:05 PM.
Up until a week or so ago, I owned both the M4 and a 991. The cars are worlds apart so you'll have to be careful when choosing because the driving experiences are different. My M4 had the DCT transmission.
BMW M4 Convertible
Good stuff - On a nice sunny day, it's fantastic to drive the car. Wind deflector works great and the AC can keep up even with the top down. The engine is amazing. It's clearly under-rated at the factory and likely producing somewhere in the 480bhp range. The torque curve is flat from 1,800 rpm and up. And if you don't think that's enough power: Bootmod3 is your friend. And, so far they've proven to be bulletproof engines with no weak points. The tech is far better. 360 cameras, auto-parking feature, heads-up display, and a very sophisticated LED headlight system (needs to be enabled via aftermarket). I even had a set of cameras to help you pull out of alley ways when you can't see oncoming traffic! Multiple settings for throttle response, suspension, and steering weight. Fit and finish is excellent, quality of materials same as Porsche. Very nicely done. It grips very well on corners. And in the theme of "it's all relative..." aftermarket parts are way cheaper than Porsche.
Bad stuff - Very heavy, 4100lbs and you feel it when you drive at high speed. Cowl shake is evident and the folding hardtop is complicated (serviced three times under warranty for failure to operate). The ride is harsher than the Porsche, you will feel bad roads more in the M4 than the 991. Trunk is useless once the top is folded down despite the "transformer" feature of being able to raise the folded stack with a button. Thirsty on fuel, which isn't so much a financial hardship as it is a pain in the ***: fuel tank is shared with a typical 4-Series BMW, it's real small at 16 gallons and 14mpg. But the single worst thing and one of the reasons I gave up on the car: the DCT transmission. It's absolutely horrible in auto mode. You can read the details on Internet forums, but not just jerky from a start, but it's completely unpredictable. Sometimes it's smooth other times it's like you side-stepped the clutch. The 1-2 shift wasn't great either, harsh and unpredictable. The only time the DCT is smooth is when you're driving at 9/10 or higher. Then suddenly the DCT is amazing. Shifts are hyper fast and always in the right gear. Ultimately I drove the car in full manual mode using the flappy paddles. I'd suggest an extended test drive in heavy traffic before buying.
Porsche 991 - Mine is a normally aspirated engine, so I can't speak to the newest turbo ones.
Good stuff - The engine is amazing. It may not be the fastest but it's so smooth and linear that I enjoy spinning it up through the gears a lot. The manual transmission is great, very easy to go up and down through the gears. Smooth, good spacing, no complaints at all. It is the classic Porsche 911 experience. Fit and finish is excellent, full-leather package covers up a lot of the plastic parts. The car feels nimble, light, the steering - numb - but precise. Very easy to carve out a line. The car weighs 900lbs less than a M4 Convertible. Ride is more compliant even over rough stuff. Both cars ran 20" wheels. The car has also proven to be reliable. No real big hassles with it at all. Last good thing: no one notices me in the 911. In the M4, I had a lot of hassles with kids wanting to race at stoplights or on the freeway.
Bad Stuff - It's smaller, the back seats are useless. Humans can fit in the rear of the M4. In the city, the M4 will feel way more powerful. The torque curve just clobbers the 911.1, it's a huge difference. Everything costs more for the Porsche. Servicing, aftermarket parts, OEM parts, everything. The level of tech in the car is much lower. No HUD, 360 camera, adjustment steering feel, voice recognition is very limited, etc. It's a much more basic setup.
In the end, they are two very different cars. There are a TON of happy owners of both who rave about how awesome their cars are. However, they don't drive anything like each other. It's worth pointing out that the sold the M4 and continue to have the 991.
Great writeup! Convertable top adds 500 lbs? I was not aware the DCT was so flawed. I thought it was OK, but it was a test drive. But that's the problem with a simple test drive, right? It will be interesting to see how the new M3 fares. The new transmission. will fix that. Man the new front grill is hideous.
The OP may want to rent the cars on his list to spend a day with them. Turo and Driveshare make it easy. Did the OP ever buy anything?
10-25-2020, 07:57 PM
