Charles Navarro

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A general statement repeated verbatim from what we were told.

We are taking their lead and evaluating the three primary coatings used by the OEMS (including Porsche). F6418 isn't one of them. Unfortunately I don't have anything more I can share at this time. It's a very long term project.

Agreed. We had approached them years ago and it was impossibly expensive. It's still too expensive for general consumption and the aftermarket, but at least we'll have the first had experience and knowledge of the coatings, processes, and requirements to make it work in our application.

silver_tt

I understand; you've already been more than gracious with what you provided. I know you have been working on this a while because it's mentioned it in your white paper on bore scoring.

various cheeses

Why no rebuilds of 9A1s? Just curious.

I have a 2016 2.7L Cayman, never had any oil consumption issues... although it does drop a bar by the time I'm closer to an oil change. I guess I should start putting in a bottle of the injector defender every 6mo or so, since it's always on top tier gas. Good insurance policy for ~$11. Great thread, thanks.

IXLR8

Thinking about this, so at which part of the cylinder bore does scoring occur at...most of the time?

Charles Navarro

We have more work than we can handle as is even with only doing bone stock builds. We leave performance builds to our customers we sleeve blocks for.

Charles Navarro

Typically at BDC, then it works its way up the bore towards the heads. That's why if you scope the bores with the piston parked at BDC you can't see scoring until it's really bad.

There is another component to scoring on 9A1 engines as the piston to cylinder clearance in these engines is very, very tight (.0007" total clearance new) and the bores can move at BDC and close that clearance up to a point that the piston starts to seize.

silver_tt

Sorry to revive a dormant thread but I have been giving this topic some more thought. Could you please articulate what you mean specifically when you said F2071 "doesn't like" M1 0W-40? Thank you in advance, hope all is well.

IXLR8

Could it be that the vast majority of recent Porsche engines run on that?

Whereas if the majority of engines ran on another brand and weight of oil, the same thing might happen?

Charles Navarro

Right now we are evaluating different oils. We were running a conventional test oil and had no oil consumption whatsoever. When we switched with M1, the engine started to consume oil but it seems to have stabilized at about 1/2 a quart in 3,000 miles. I'm pretty happy with that. I'll add back when we were working with Driven to develop DT40, we learned that different brands of fuels and also winter blends would affect oil consumption. Likewise, some oils seem to be better about oil consumption than others, as does what cylinder material (or coating) the engine uses.

As Porsche did not use the F2071 coating, I can't say one way or not whether the info we've learned during our testing would be directly applicable to Porsche engines with SUMEbore coated bores. We are in the process of evaluating two more different coating used by VWAG (and Porsche) to see how they compare to the coating we have already used in both aircooled and watercooled Porsche engines.

silver_tt

Thank you for the information, I appreciate it. I agree with everything you are saying 110% and you are offering the community good information. Goes without saying but you cannot judge an oil by consumption…..even as a proxy.

Consider the following which is my experience with DI40. At 75k miles my cast iron 2.0T burned basically no oil running VW 502.00 5w-30 but I discovered the timing chain to be severely worn so I could fix things before it completely destroyed the head. In fact using oil consumption alone as a proxy for engine health can be a red herring.

When I switched to DI40, a 0w-40, I noticed increased oil consumption especially right after the switch. It has since stabilized and I now burn about 1/2 - 3/4 quart per 5,000 miles. But the UOA looks solid. I suspect with the thinner 0w-40 oil a little more is making it past the rings. But make no mistake, my engine is extremely healthy. I also noticed I burn a little more during city driving which I think makes sense as the car is idling more and not under load. When I took a 1,000 mile road trip to Chicago a few weeks ago it burned nothing.

In my view a relatively small amount of oil consumption is a small price to pay for running a higher quality oil with all the benefits that come along with it.

Charles Navarro

Agreed. Oil consumption isn't something necessarily to worry about as long as it's not increasing over time. Some engines will use more oil than others. It's very common for engines with Nikasil bores and the required low tension rings to use a quart in 1000 miles.

Case in point, I have a GTI with the 2.0T with the cast iron block as well that burned a quart every 700 miles and the engine is very healthy with 140,000 miles on it. Doesn't worry me in the slightest.

na4life

I can't believe it but had this happen to an acquaintance of mine too. Car purchased at 25k miles (C2s) but hadn't been driven that much for 2 years. 1 month later, clicking sound = bore scoring in two bores after the engine was disassembled. They didn't replace the injectors the first time around. Same issue, and one of the two previously defective cylinders was obviously scored this time. They replaced the injectors this time and things are good. It seems like service centers aren't replacing the injectors by default on the first engine failure. FWIW his car was not CPO and they still covered it (that would've been a very expensive tale otherwise).

I got recommended to use Techron every few months (or at minimum the tank before each subsequent oil change) to keep the injectors clean. Is that something you guys would recommend? The other big thing I've been recommended is an "Italian tuneup" from time to time. And not idling but driving moderately until the engine is well warmed up (because damage is more likely due to the very small clearances right after a cold start). So far (along with my new engine + injectors) I've been fine. We'll see how well this other guy's new engine holds up.

silver_tt

One of the biggest killers of injectors is crap gas so don't use it. Only put the best quality gas in all of your engines -- eg. only Top Tier gas and never get gas at "random" non-brand type gas stations.

Yes, I run a bottle of Techron just before every oil change. I also use the Driven Injector Defender + Booster, which is just as good. As far as "Italian tuneups", yes, these engines prefer to be run at operating temperature and not idled a lot etc, so getting the car out on the highway or whatever pretty often to run it at full operating temperature for an extended period of time, even if you're not banging on it per se, is good form.

Greg D.

I don’t quite understand. The engine monitoring systems on our cars are super sophisticated. To the point where I had a check engine light years ago on an old Boxster simply because there was a little bit of water in the gas and one cylinder had a miss for a few hundreds of a second.. detected! These things record time spent over certain RPMs to a single engine rotation - and yet we’re saying that they are unable to detect a bad injector, twice, which leads to toasting an engine? I don’t get this. I’m not denying it happens or that it was the cause - but it doesn’t compute that the computers are missing this … anyone ?

na4life

My guess is the spray pattern is altered somewhat or they become leaky so they're still functional but causing excessive washing of the oil of the cylinders (as has been mentioned on this thread). So it's not like the engine is noticeably misfiring per se (which the computer could easily catch).