When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
As soon as we try to unpack that feeling I had the other evening, and have now had many times over 10,000 miles, we start applying charts, considering torque (and rightly so), etc. In other words, we pursue the "why." It's in us. In me. In you. I skipped all that with my post and just wanted to share that feeling, that moment of clarity between two corners: "Do I want or need more than this?" And for me, the answer was, "No." The package felt fabulous.
YMMV, and don't get me wrong. I'd still rather have the 500-hp beast in my avatar, something I learned to absolutely love over 2500 miles despite its wild nature and a car that remains my all-time favorite 911. Or a Carrera GT, which remains my all-time favorite Porsche. Or the 997 RS 4.0, which completes my top three—and I'd trade the Carrera for any of those three in a heartbeat if money was no object and I didn't need back seats (or they could be installed). I also love the current GT3 6MT, and the highly underrated "997-1" GT2, the plain one. And the SW 3.9. And the 993 RS, as well as the supercharged TPC 993 I spent a lot of time in years ago (remains my favorite air-cooled Porsche engine, I think...). And, interestingly, nearly every version of the 991.2 I have driven. But it's not only the big-power cars that can get you there, and the list of big-power cars that didn't do much for me is a longer one than the list of big-power cars that moved the needle. The old 2.5-liter Boxster was a pretty special thing when you wrung it out, as was the original 3.4-liter Cayman S. Nor is it only Porsche. The latest Evora is ridiculously good, and I still miss the 160hp 500 Abarth I sold—a far more fun car than either of the modern GTIs I used as dailies. And my old 914 with a breathed on 2.2-liter flat six. And the 997 GTS. And the list goes on...
Is there a bad Porsche? Hmm. Not sure about that, but lean towards "no." But every now and then, a package comes along from Porsche that gels in a way that is rare, in a way that stands apart. The 997 RS 4.0 was one. The 987 Boxster Spyder was another. And this 991.2 Carrera is another. The only difference is it isn't a special model. It's hard to quantify, and people will no doubt try. To unpack it. To understand it. To replicate it. Sometimes, however, I am not sure you can.
Someone asked if I even know what I want in an earlier post. Had to chuckle about that, and then thought about that BMW art car, the LMP, that carried six words: "Protect Me From What I Want." So I went and had a look on the internet. The irony is not lost on me: It's too bad BMW failed to listen to its own race car...I used to love their cars, but they lack charisma these days—a danger for Porsche, and every car company, unless all they want to sell is interchangeable pods.
I think its quite simple, for the first time in a long time the Carrera has an engine that can deliver a high rate of performance to a chassis that can handle it. . This means the base is great and if you want more on top you can have it.
Agree with Pete that the 9A2/370hp motor is just about perfect for the street/roads, PAG got it right for power and power delivery with this engine IMO
I love that in 2nd I can mash the throttle and get the joy, rush, and sound and still be smiling/having fun within somewhat sane speeds, easily accessing the engine's peak power/torque. Doesn't matter whether driving to the supermarket or on my favorite canyon road. Try the same on the GT3 and there is no fun or games, I am dead serious with white knuckles holding on for dear life...
Its definitely more than enough. The only thing i wish it had is shorter gear ratios and spool the turbos a bit faster. I think air filter + exhaust will definitely help wind up the turbos and sharpen up the throttle response enough to make it feel even more linear
Agree with Pete that the 9A2/370hp motor is just about perfect for the street/roads, PAG got it right for power and power delivery with this engine IMO
I love that in 2nd I can mash the throttle and get the joy, rush, and sound and still be smiling/having fun within somewhat sane speeds, easily accessing the engine's peak power/torque. Doesn't matter whether driving to the supermarket or on my favorite canyon road. Try the same on the GT3 and there is no fun or games, I am dead serious with white knuckles holding on for dear life...
I can drive the GTS in a sane and controlled manner suitable for public roads and enjoy it, and get a white knuckle rush if desired as well. I never find myself wishing I had less HP, although I will agree its more than one can safely drive on the street if you want to push it. What I do miss is the roar of the NA engine as it revs - the TT’s - all of them - are a bit to civil aurally - inside the cabin. Even with the SE, which sounds suitably aggressive outside the car, inside the car its too quiet and it handles and performs so well that its easy to get detached from the velocity of the machine. This has been one of the criticisms of the Turbo models over the years. Maybe a cab has you more viscerally in tune with the speed of these things. I test drove the base as well and it was no different, only that it required less self control to avoid going too fast.
Maybe a Miata might be more appropriate (TIC) Someone once described them as a car where you can have a lot of fun at legal speeds, and a 911 at illegal speeds. I recently sold a couple of European liter sport bikes because they really were too fast for the road (~200+ hp/425 lbs) and I could only enjoy at the track which I could not get to enough, and bought a slightly used Triumph Bonneville T120 which is totally and viscerally enjoyable at legal speeds. So I get the argument ref 370 except that its still too competent going too fast to easily. So the problem is? ��
I can drive the GTS in a sane and controlled manner suitable for public roads and enjoy it, and get a white knuckle rush if desired as well. I never find myself wishing I had less HP, although I will agree its more than one can safely drive on the street if you want to push it. What I do miss is the roar of the NA engine as it revs - the TT’s - all of them - are a bit to civil aurally - inside the cabin. Even with the SE, which sounds suitably aggressive outside the car, inside the car its too quiet and it handles and performs so well that its easy to get detached from the velocity of the machine. This has been one of the criticisms of the Turbo models over the years. Maybe a cab has you more viscerally in tune with the speed of these things. I test drove the base as well and it was no different, only that it required less self control to avoid going too fast.
Maybe a Miata might be more appropriate (TIC) Someone once described them as a car where you can have a lot of fun at legal speeds, and a 911 at illegal speeds. I recently sold a couple of European liter sport bikes because they really were too fast for the road (~200+ hp/425 lbs) and I could only enjoy at the track which I could not get to enough, and bought a slightly used Triumph Bonneville T120 which is totally and viscerally enjoyable at legal speeds. So I get the argument ref 370 except that its still too competent going too fast to easily. So the problem is? ��
The problem is that this thread is about 1 of 3 main prongs of what constitutes fun and enough.
370HP is more than adequate and quite the capable weapon in the right hands. I'm happy with 240 in my DD and even that's difficult to control and stay within posted speed limits.
An NA motor is needed for visceral engagement, although a turbo one outperforms it easily.
A hydraulic steering will always rain supreme even if its electric counterpart is 4% more fuel efficient. News flash, Porsche and other sports cars makers, we didn't buy your cars for fuel efficiency...
So the problem is?
I'll go first, as car companies race ahead to gain performance, they are neglecting some categories like linear acceleration, sound and steering feedback that makes these cars fun to drive. I don't want a fast appliance I need a quick responsive, fun car.
As a result of this we are now at a point where we need to convince ourselves that X HP is sufficient when the reality is that almost any modern car provides more than adequate power....
Yesterday I was messing around with my C4S seeing how high the turbo will spool while running an errand. It wasn't warmed up 100% and nearly 100F outside, so it didn't spool that high. The same day I tried again when leaving work when it had cooled down (sunset) and the car was warmed up, so it spooled normally. The additional torque was noticeable and revealing...it had me be relieved that I didn't get the base.
I don't think there is a such thing as too much power as long as the chassis can handle it. I'll gladly take TTS power and use it. The difference is everything just happens faster with more power. The torque pushes you around harder. It is more fun to have a snappier car. I'd had plenty of fun 'revving out a smaller engine' before and that gets old after a while. Its not about the HP... its about the responsive torque. After getting used to it, I DONT think my C4S has too much power... I'd actually welcome more mid range torque via power kit. Maybe if it was RWD (like GT3), the chassis couldn't handle the power without drama and I'd be hesitant to use it, so maybe 400 is enough, but with AWD, it can handle more NP. 3 seconds to 60 is with launch control... in reality/ normal driving, the car is slower and could actually use more power. Its still not near the torque of a Tesla.
Fact is, OP posted this trying to justify why their car has enough power. In other words, there are doubts.
Great post, Bemo, and (as is so often the case on digital platforms but too seldom recognized) we agree on more than we disagree on—and are after the same thing.
Originally Posted by Bemo
The problem is that this thread is about 1 of 3 main prongs of what constitutes fun and enough.
Not sure on that. Have to think about, but think my original post and much of the subsequent discussion was addressing all three prongs even the thread title wasn't.
Originally Posted by Bemo
370HP is more than adequate and quite the capable weapon in the right hands. I'm happy with 240 in my DD and even that's difficult to control and stay within posted speed limits.
We definitely agree on this. I was happy with 320 in a Cayman S, 160 in an Abarth, 385 in the GT4, etc.
Originally Posted by Bemo
An NA motor is needed for visceral engagement, although a turbo one outperforms it easily.
On this prong, we disagree—but I am not sure either of us wrong...for you, or me.
I can see where someone doesn't like the 3.0 as much as the previous 3.4 or 3.8 (even if I think this is often but not always a case of them not having much seat time with them), or doesn't get the same thrill or aural excitement without the howl. But I assure you, there's plenty of visceral engagement in a Ruf CTR or a Ferrari F40...and far more than any modern Carrera from the 3.2 forward. Basically, there are "turbo-ish turbo" engines and "NA-ish turbo" engines. The latter are fairly rare, but wonderful. The 3.0 is one of them.
Originally Posted by Bemo
A hydraulic steering will always rain supreme even if its electric counterpart is 4% more fuel efficient. News flash, Porsche and other sports cars makers, we didn't buy your cars for fuel efficiency...
Probably the biggest point of criticism to be lodged at 991.1s, and an area where the 991.2 is much improved but still short of a 997 or 996 when it comes to feel. Both the 991.1 and 991.2 shred the 996/997 when it comes to steering response and accuracy, on the other hand. I remember first drive in a 991.1, thinking "it's not that bad." Then I drove an early 991.1S back to back with a 997 RS 4.0 for a few hundred miles in streaming rain...and I wanted the 997 all the time. I could tell what the nose was up to better, and the grip was better too once the tires were warm.
When it comes to EPAS vs HPAS, it's worth a drive in a 964 if you get a chance, as the power steering in those is pretty blah imo. HPAS got better over time, and was very good by the time of the 996 and 997, so I suspect EPAS will do the same as they figure out how to assist while letting certain feedback through.
Originally Posted by Bemo
So the problem is?
I'll go first, as car companies race ahead to gain performance, they are neglecting some categories like linear acceleration, sound and steering feedback that makes these cars fun to drive. I don't want a fast appliance I need a quick responsive, fun car.
As a result of this we are now at a point where we need to convince ourselves that X HP is sufficient when the reality is that almost any modern car provides more than adequate power....
Go!
This is where we really agree, and probably the biggest point of my post. Actually, I couldn't agree more. "370" is just one marker along that line of thinking, as you rightly point out. It could be 160, 240, 300, etc.
What I pine for is a modern Porsche sports car that's on the scale and fun factor of my 2013 Fiat 500 Abarth...which might have been the most fun and most useful daily I've ever had. It weighed just 2500 pounds, the scale was fabulous as you could park it anywhere and its scale seemed to make it fit into the world more unobtrusively as well. People smiled. And its driver smiled. Something like that, but lower, maybe a bit longer, with 200hp and RWD...yes, that's something that would interest me. I'm agnostic on power supply, whether NA, FI, or even electric if that's what it takes—so long as it is fun and alive in my hands.
Yesterday I was messing around with my C4S seeing how high the turbo will spool while running an errand. It wasn't warmed up 100% and nearly 100F outside, so it didn't spool that high. The same day I tried again when leaving work when it had cooled down (sunset) and the car was warmed up, so it spooled normally. The additional torque was noticeable and revealing...it had me be relieved that I didn't get the base.
I don't think there is a such thing as too much power as long as the chassis can handle it. I'll gladly take TTS power and use it. The difference is everything just happens faster with more power. The torque pushes you around harder. It is more fun to have a snappier car. I'd had plenty of fun 'revving out a smaller engine' before and that gets old after a while. Its not about the HP... its about the responsive torque. After getting used to it, I DONT think my C4S has too much power... I'd actually welcome more mid range torque via power kit. Maybe if it was RWD (like GT3), the chassis couldn't handle the power without drama and I'd be hesitant to use it, so maybe 400 is enough, but with AWD, it can handle more NP. 3 seconds to 60 is with launch control... in reality/ normal driving, the car is slower and could actually use more power. Its still not near the torque of a Tesla.
Fact is, OP posted this trying to justify why their car has enough power. In other words, there are doubts.
Not a fact, no trying, and no justification.
Point was: Power isn't everything, at least not for me. Package is. I can't remember how many 400-900hp cars I've driven that could easily deploy all the power they had but were ultimately kind of...boring—fast cars that failed to excite or engage this driver. I'd say there are more of those than the true gems, and the true gems when it comes to driver's cars might have 100-1000 hp.
I suppose this comes down to the "for me" in the ^. There are plenty of drivers out there wired and/or trained (or not trained) in such a way that the only thing that matters is how fast the thing accelerates. That's the high they enjoy, and it's a pretty easy high to hit. Just add power. And from the one time I went drag racing, I gained a lot of respect for that genre for those who really pursue it. Doesn't interest me all that much, but it's its own art & science—and it gives them the high they're after. I think what I am saying is that the base Carrera reminds me that what I am starting to miss in Porsche's lineup are sports cars that do more with less. And now that the Boxster/Cayman went to an engine that doesn't excite me, the last one to do so in the current lineup is the base Carrera.
And no, there's nothing wrong with a C4S, Turbo, or GT3. All three are exceptional right now. Depending on cost, needs (if I lived where there was snow—or the autobahn), transmission (personally, I'm MT only...for the most part), or seating (if I could do without back seats), I might prefer one of those to the Carrera. Maybe.
I like the base Carrera, it's a great sports car for what it is intended for. Most people who drive 911s and aren't track junkies would do fine with the base, It's the ego that gets in the way.
The problem I see is that cars keep getting faster, but the speed limits stay the same : (
Point was: Power isn't everything, at least not for me. Package is. I can't remember how many 400-900hp cars I've driven that could easily deploy all the power they had but were ultimately kind of...boring—fast cars that failed to excite or engage this driver. I'd say there are more of those than the true gems, and the true gems when it comes to driver's cars might have 100-1000 hp.
I suppose this comes down to the "for me" in the ^. There are plenty of drivers out there wired and/or trained (or not trained) in such a way that the only thing that matters is how fast the thing accelerates. That's the high they enjoy, and it's a pretty easy high to hit. Just add power. And from the one time I went drag racing, I gained a lot of respect for that genre for those who really pursue it. Doesn't interest me all that much, but it's its own art & science—and it gives them the high they're after. I think what I am saying is that the base Carrera reminds me that what I am starting to miss in Porsche's lineup are sports cars that do more with less. And now that the Boxster/Cayman went to an engine that doesn't excite me, the last one to do so in the current lineup is the base Carrera.
And no, there's nothing wrong with a C4S, Turbo, or GT3. All three are exceptional right now. Depending on cost, needs (if I lived where there was snow—or the autobahn), transmission (personally, I'm MT only...for the most part), or seating (if I could do without back seats), I might prefer one of those to the Carrera. Maybe.
Yep...completely agree its all about the whole package. The power is just a piece of that, but its an important one. Some people get caught up into exhaust noises too (also important).
I wouldn't confuse 'need' with 'want.' No one really needs a 500 HP Porsche, yet they want it. You might not need all that power, but you certainly want it (even if occasionally). People normally always want more to a point they are comfortable handling...the 911 chassis is perfectly capable of handling more. I don't even think that a GTS has 'too much power.'
For me, a car is a tool, not a toy. I drive it to get me around rather than fun. I want it to handle tightly, corner flat, accelerate fast, be comfortable, look nice, light up the road well etc....I want it to do what I tell it to do telepathically and without drama...isn't possible in real world conditions even for a 911. I don't long for repeated manual clutch engagement while stuck in traffic. I don't care to feel vibration in my wrists from tire rubbing gravel. I don't want the suspension to be excessively firm just to be amused by the curvature of potholes. I don't want the rear to pop out and spin around after snap oversteer since I let off the power after seeing a deer mid corner. I want the car to look out for me rather me look out for the car. Some of those older simple 'engaging' cars were slow and drove like crap even when new in comparison to modern ones. People loved them, but moved on to modern cars for good reasons.
I don't personally think 'less is more.' A modern 911 is a complicated piece of machinery heavily reliant on computers/ tech and that is what makes them drive so well. It augments simple human inputs down wires and this makes stuff happen (to ultimately transport you). There is nothing simple about it. Adding more magic to a magic carpet...makes it more magical.
Last edited by minthral; 08-05-2018 at 02:25 PM.
Reason: grammar
Yesterday I was messing around with my C4S seeing how high the turbo will spool while running an errand. It wasn't warmed up 100% and nearly 100F outside, so it didn't spool that high. The same day I tried again when leaving work when it had cooled down (sunset) and the car was warmed up, so it spooled normally. The additional torque was noticeable and revealing...it had me be relieved that I didn't get the base.
I don't think there is a such thing as too much power as long as the chassis can handle it. I'll gladly take TTS power and use it. The difference is everything just happens faster with more power. The torque pushes you around harder. It is more fun to have a snappier car. I'd had plenty of fun 'revving out a smaller engine' before and that gets old after a while. Its not about the HP... its about the responsive torque. After getting used to it, I DONT think my C4S has too much power... I'd actually welcome more mid range torque via power kit. Maybe if it was RWD (like GT3), the chassis couldn't handle the power without drama and I'd be hesitant to use it, so maybe 400 is enough, but with AWD, it can handle more NP. 3 seconds to 60 is with launch control... in reality/ normal driving, the car is slower and could actually use more power. Its still not near the torque of a Tesla.
Fact is, OP posted this trying to justify why their car has enough power. In other words, there are doubts.
That's a very good point. Launch control is totally different from daily driving, and just because it can do a 3 second 0-60 doesn't mean it feels like it all the time. I personally love more power. Not at the expense of a fun driving experience, because power by itself isn't everything. But a fun car with more power is still a fun car (more so, IMHO.)
Yep...completely agree its all about the whole package. The power is just a piece of that, but its an important one. Some people get caught up in into the noise too (also important).
I wouldn't confuse 'need' with 'want.' No one really needs a 500 HP Porsche, yet they want it. You might not need all that power, but you certainly want it (even if occasionally). People normally always want more to a point you are comfortable with handling...the 911 chassis is perfectly capable of handling more. I don't even think that a GTS has 'too much power.'
For me, a car is a tool, not a toy. I drive it to get me around rather than fun. I want it to handle tightly, corner flat, accelerate fast, be comfortable, look nice, light up the road well etc....I want it to do what I tell it to do telepathically and without drama...a simple act isn't possible in real world conditions even for a 911. I don't long to for repeated manual clutch engagement while stuck in traffic. I don't care to feel vibration in my wrists from tire rubbing gravel. I don't want the suspension to be excessively firm just to be amused by the curvature of potholes. I don't want the rear to pop out and spin around after snap oversteer since I let off the power after seeing a deer. I want the car to look out for me rather me look out for the car. Some of those older simple 'engaging' cars were slow and drove like crap even when new in comparison to modern ones. People loved them, but moved on to modern cars for good reasons.
I don't personally think 'less is more.' A modern 911 is a complicated piece of machinery heavily reliant on computers/ tech and that is what makes them drive so well. It augments simple human inputs down wires and this makes stuff happen (to ultimately transport you). There is nothing simple about it. Adding more magic to a magical carpet...makes it more magical.
Happy with "enough" > content (adjective; a state of peaceful happiness; synonyms: contented, satisfied, pleased, gratified, happy, cheerful, glad; example given: how I feel when I drive my Carrera)
"No such thing as too much" > something different, and a road I've been down, and probably go down a lot of the time
To each their own, but fine to recognize when one is content.
Porsche is definitely making "more from more" cars these days, and has been for decades (see 930, 928, 959, Cayenne, etc). Nothing wrong with that, and I like those too. But "more from less" still resonates with me more deeply, and is what has long separated Porsche from other carmakers. Here's to hoping they continue to make both.
08-04-2018, 11:53 AM
. This means the base is great and if you want more on top you can have it. 
