991.1 GTS Dyno and weight results too good?
07-29-2018, 10:23 AM
#16
Post deleted - no point in responding to this.
Last edited by groundhog; 07-29-2018 at 09:07 PM.
07-29-2018, 11:32 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
These threads always seem to degrade into the same worn out and pointless NA vs FI debate.
Wish the mods would do a little more to step in before these threads get hijacked.
Wish the mods would do a little more to step in before these threads get hijacked.
07-29-2018, 01:05 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
Special.......in what way? seriously it adds 30HP over 900RPM relative to the 991.1 S. The current GTS motor produces, more torque, is more responsive and delivers more power across the whole rev range - facts are what they are.
The 991.1 X51 motor has about 440Nm peak torque, nothing below 4000RPM and is completely outclassed across the whole rev range by the 550Nm 450HP twin turbo. Its well beyond its use by date
In terms of performance offerings relative to Audi, Ferrari and Lambo in 2015 it was outclassed. So what was special about it - the ancient history cylinder liners?
I'm really interested because in my view, having had 996, 997 and 991 Series 2 (plus 987,986 and 981) vehicles I thought that general motor in the 991 and 981 GT4 was a bridge to far.
Its pretty clear Porsche went through a dead spot e.g. 991 Series 1 motor, 991.1 GT3 catastrophe and 981 GT4 fade out. The twin turbo is widely acknowledged as a game changer - its proved robust, flexible and even takes well to a tune.
I genuinely can't take your comment seriously. Its so far removed from everything I both know and have enjoyed.
The 991.1 X51 motor has about 440Nm peak torque, nothing below 4000RPM and is completely outclassed across the whole rev range by the 550Nm 450HP twin turbo. Its well beyond its use by date
In terms of performance offerings relative to Audi, Ferrari and Lambo in 2015 it was outclassed. So what was special about it - the ancient history cylinder liners?
I'm really interested because in my view, having had 996, 997 and 991 Series 2 (plus 987,986 and 981) vehicles I thought that general motor in the 991 and 981 GT4 was a bridge to far.
Its pretty clear Porsche went through a dead spot e.g. 991 Series 1 motor, 991.1 GT3 catastrophe and 981 GT4 fade out. The twin turbo is widely acknowledged as a game changer - its proved robust, flexible and even takes well to a tune.
I genuinely can't take your comment seriously. Its so far removed from everything I both know and have enjoyed.
I've had pretty much every Carrera/turbo/GT car since about MY 2001 with a couple air-cooled and various other sports cars of most levels...power level only means so much above a certain point (and Im a huge TT fan, my current 650s spider is easily one of my favorite cars ever, and I expect the incoming 600lt to surpass even that). What meant WAY more to me has been the character of the motors vs the overall outputs etc etc. The 991.1 normal S motor with the power kit motor (which keep in mind had some real internal component differences) was such a sweet, sweet upgrade in low end torque, sound and feel that I ended up owning two and a good couples years apart from each other...something I almost never do. In contrast, I had a 2018 Gts that I drove for 2300 miles and couldn't have cared less to drive on any given day, it just didn't feel nearly as special and I sold it without looking back even once. At the end of the day, drive what you're happy with...but don't feel like your opinion and raw stats speak for everyone
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07-29-2018, 01:07 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
07-29-2018, 01:37 PM
#20
Originally Posted by sechsgang
I've had pretty much every Carrera/turbo/GT car since about MY 2001 with a couple air-cooled and various other sports cars of most levels...power level only means so much above a certain point (and Im a huge TT fan, my current 650s spider is easily one of my favorite cars ever, and I expect the incoming 600lt to surpass even that). What meant WAY more to me has been the character of the motors vs the overall outputs etc etc. The 991.1 normal S motor with the power kit motor (which keep in mind had some real internal component differences) was such a sweet, sweet upgrade in low end torque, sound and feel that I ended up owning two and a good couples years apart from each other...something I almost never do. In contrast, I had a 2018 Gts that I drove for 2300 miles and couldn't have cared less to drive on any given day, it just didn't feel nearly as special and I sold it without looking back even once. At the end of the day, drive what you're happy with...but don't feel like your opinion and raw stats speak for everyone
Quite the accomplishment and hats off to you. The wife and I test drove a base .2 for a whopping 10 min and, while fast and efficient, there was zero emotion and theatrical performance so we threw the keys and ran out. The 991.1 GTS was the one for us.
To each their own
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07-29-2018, 02:57 PM
#21
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Thread Starter
Same debates over on the BMW forums when their M cars went from NA to turbo 2013-2015. It gets old.
Last edited by MaynardZed; 08-04-2018 at 07:57 PM.
07-29-2018, 09:25 PM
#22
I'm out - I joined Rennlist a couple of months ago to find out about the new GT4, I have owned a lot of high performance cars and still own several Porsche sports including the current GTS. Moreover, I am very active in motorsports from club to national level.
I commented on the merits of the dyno run in a fact based manner and used the current GTS results simply to highlight how far dynos can be off beam and specifically placed in bold the inaccurate numbers. This was not intended to run down some ones pride and joy but rather to show that one has to be careful in taking one off dyno pulls as an accurate assessment of a cars output.
I did respond to Sechsgangs comment - but have deleted it, simply because there is little point - the facts speak for themselves.
Having read many threads in the 991 section over the last few months I can only conclude there is significant polarisation with regard to NA or turbo.
Nothing will change this and the reality is time has moved on - and to Sechsgang and Dewinator - good luck with your cars. I don't respect your opinions in regard to the Series 2 - its hard to take them seriously as they don't correspond to either my knowledge and experience both on road or track with my current GTS.
To the OP enjoy your car in good health, just don't take the dyno run as an accurate reflection of WHP
I commented on the merits of the dyno run in a fact based manner and used the current GTS results simply to highlight how far dynos can be off beam and specifically placed in bold the inaccurate numbers. This was not intended to run down some ones pride and joy but rather to show that one has to be careful in taking one off dyno pulls as an accurate assessment of a cars output.
I did respond to Sechsgangs comment - but have deleted it, simply because there is little point - the facts speak for themselves.
Having read many threads in the 991 section over the last few months I can only conclude there is significant polarisation with regard to NA or turbo.
Nothing will change this and the reality is time has moved on - and to Sechsgang and Dewinator - good luck with your cars. I don't respect your opinions in regard to the Series 2 - its hard to take them seriously as they don't correspond to either my knowledge and experience both on road or track with my current GTS.
To the OP enjoy your car in good health, just don't take the dyno run as an accurate reflection of WHP
Last edited by groundhog; 07-30-2018 at 04:54 AM.
07-29-2018, 09:59 PM
#23
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Thread Starter
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Cristophosphorus (08-08-2020)
07-30-2018, 07:32 PM
#24
Can't say exactly. The Dynojet dyno tends to be a little generous with its readings compared to other types of dynos, But this run still seems to suggest slightly higher than 430 horsepower at the crank.
A good rule of thumb over the years had been 17% driveline loss, but it seems many modern cars lose much less than that. My BMW M4 (turbo powered) put down 415 rwhp on a MAHA dyno from factory (rated 425 hp) and a crap load of torque too. BMW, MB, and many other turbo powered cars are putting down way higher numbers than anticipated on dynos based on factory numbers.
Nevertheless, my N/A GTS putting down a reading of 386rwhp in 110 degree weather is pretty good and I'm happy with it. It could have a tune. Not sure because I bought it used. You would think that it being Porsche CPO they would check on that stuff, but who knows. I guess I can't complain, since I traded in my M4 which has a tune too and I didn't tell them either.
A good rule of thumb over the years had been 17% driveline loss, but it seems many modern cars lose much less than that. My BMW M4 (turbo powered) put down 415 rwhp on a MAHA dyno from factory (rated 425 hp) and a crap load of torque too. BMW, MB, and many other turbo powered cars are putting down way higher numbers than anticipated on dynos based on factory numbers.
Nevertheless, my N/A GTS putting down a reading of 386rwhp in 110 degree weather is pretty good and I'm happy with it. It could have a tune. Not sure because I bought it used. You would think that it being Porsche CPO they would check on that stuff, but who knows. I guess I can't complain, since I traded in my M4 which has a tune too and I didn't tell them either.
07-30-2018, 07:57 PM
#25
Slightly off topic but related - I’ve heard mentioned before (though I can’t remember where) that there is a “dyno” mode that the car is placed in to test the engine on the dyno before it leaves the factory (so that all the stability controls/abs stuff doesn’t go bonkers when you do it). I know that the car sorts all that stuff out on it’s own after it’s driven a bit but it would be nice to do this using the durametric tool. Does anyone know? -Dom
07-30-2018, 11:08 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I believe the Dyno mode is for PDK cars, mine is a manual. I think there’s an expensive tool required to dyno a PDK car.
I just turned off TC, etc. A few alarms went off during my last pull, but they cleared themselves after I drove around for a bit.
I just turned off TC, etc. A few alarms went off during my last pull, but they cleared themselves after I drove around for a bit.
04-23-2020, 10:20 AM
#27
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Reviving an older thread because we are bout to take delivery of a 991.1 S that i found in Texas, loaded with every option known to man, including my favorite Power Kit upgrade. A few notes from reading through...sorry for being late to the party:
1.) The PDK cars have to go in Rolling Dyno Mode - so you need the factory PIWIS computer. There were some folks that came up with some things a few years back that could emulate wheel speeds and that's the expensive equipment to which you're referring. Nowadays most all shops have them because they're cloned and imported from overseas. It allows you to put a PDK car in "Dyno Mode" so as not to freak out the computer when it doesn't see front wheel speeds. It's not expensive though. If you have a PDK 997.2 / 987.2 then in fact you have to go to a 4 wheel dyno and hook up the drums and work backwards into an interpolated rwhp/rwtq number.
2.) I have been studying the file in this car since 2016 because that's the package i put on our GT4 at 950 miles. The GTS is an animal. I think it's grossly underrated and i love the chance to upgrade them to the potential for the purpose built GT car. I will tell you though that of all of the stock ECU files, this one has the least room left on the table. It's fairtly aggressive from the factory and running on the edge of knock and when it's hot, adding 100 octane to the car will wake it up almost another 7 - 10 horsepower. Because of the big intake runners they don't make an enormous amount of peak torque but the curve is the flattest of any non-GT car Porsche builds. That's why you're making good power in the heat when it's 100F outside.
3.) Your dyno results are right on the money. we have built several X51 powered GT4s and have worked on several 991s and added Power Kits. Your 385/282 number is spot on the money. That's why i love the Dynojet.
I would love to revive this thread again. We are starting the build of this yellow car next week. The goal will be to take it to Daytona International Speedway to see if we can set some records.
1.) The PDK cars have to go in Rolling Dyno Mode - so you need the factory PIWIS computer. There were some folks that came up with some things a few years back that could emulate wheel speeds and that's the expensive equipment to which you're referring. Nowadays most all shops have them because they're cloned and imported from overseas. It allows you to put a PDK car in "Dyno Mode" so as not to freak out the computer when it doesn't see front wheel speeds. It's not expensive though. If you have a PDK 997.2 / 987.2 then in fact you have to go to a 4 wheel dyno and hook up the drums and work backwards into an interpolated rwhp/rwtq number.
2.) I have been studying the file in this car since 2016 because that's the package i put on our GT4 at 950 miles. The GTS is an animal. I think it's grossly underrated and i love the chance to upgrade them to the potential for the purpose built GT car. I will tell you though that of all of the stock ECU files, this one has the least room left on the table. It's fairtly aggressive from the factory and running on the edge of knock and when it's hot, adding 100 octane to the car will wake it up almost another 7 - 10 horsepower. Because of the big intake runners they don't make an enormous amount of peak torque but the curve is the flattest of any non-GT car Porsche builds. That's why you're making good power in the heat when it's 100F outside.
3.) Your dyno results are right on the money. we have built several X51 powered GT4s and have worked on several 991s and added Power Kits. Your 385/282 number is spot on the money. That's why i love the Dynojet.
I would love to revive this thread again. We are starting the build of this yellow car next week. The goal will be to take it to Daytona International Speedway to see if we can set some records.
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04-23-2020, 10:58 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
Reviving an older thread because we are bout to take delivery of a 991.1 S that i found in Texas, loaded with every option known to man, including my favorite Power Kit upgrade. A few notes from reading through...sorry for being late to the party:
1.) The PDK cars have to go in Rolling Dyno Mode - so you need the factory PIWIS computer. There were some folks that came up with some things a few years back that could emulate wheel speeds and that's the expensive equipment to which you're referring. Nowadays most all shops have them because they're cloned and imported from overseas. It allows you to put a PDK car in "Dyno Mode" so as not to freak out the computer when it doesn't see front wheel speeds. It's not expensive though. If you have a PDK 997.2 / 987.2 then in fact you have to go to a 4 wheel dyno and hook up the drums and work backwards into an interpolated rwhp/rwtq number.
2.) I have been studying the file in this car since 2016 because that's the package i put on our GT4 at 950 miles. The GTS is an animal. I think it's grossly underrated and i love the chance to upgrade them to the potential for the purpose built GT car. I will tell you though that of all of the stock ECU files, this one has the least room left on the table. It's fairtly aggressive from the factory and running on the edge of knock and when it's hot, adding 100 octane to the car will wake it up almost another 7 - 10 horsepower. Because of the big intake runners they don't make an enormous amount of peak torque but the curve is the flattest of any non-GT car Porsche builds. That's why you're making good power in the heat when it's 100F outside.
3.) Your dyno results are right on the money. we have built several X51 powered GT4s and have worked on several 991s and added Power Kits. Your 385/282 number is spot on the money. That's why i love the Dynojet.
I would love to revive this thread again. We are starting the build of this yellow car next week. The goal will be to take it to Daytona International Speedway to see if we can set some records.
1.) The PDK cars have to go in Rolling Dyno Mode - so you need the factory PIWIS computer. There were some folks that came up with some things a few years back that could emulate wheel speeds and that's the expensive equipment to which you're referring. Nowadays most all shops have them because they're cloned and imported from overseas. It allows you to put a PDK car in "Dyno Mode" so as not to freak out the computer when it doesn't see front wheel speeds. It's not expensive though. If you have a PDK 997.2 / 987.2 then in fact you have to go to a 4 wheel dyno and hook up the drums and work backwards into an interpolated rwhp/rwtq number.
2.) I have been studying the file in this car since 2016 because that's the package i put on our GT4 at 950 miles. The GTS is an animal. I think it's grossly underrated and i love the chance to upgrade them to the potential for the purpose built GT car. I will tell you though that of all of the stock ECU files, this one has the least room left on the table. It's fairtly aggressive from the factory and running on the edge of knock and when it's hot, adding 100 octane to the car will wake it up almost another 7 - 10 horsepower. Because of the big intake runners they don't make an enormous amount of peak torque but the curve is the flattest of any non-GT car Porsche builds. That's why you're making good power in the heat when it's 100F outside.
3.) Your dyno results are right on the money. we have built several X51 powered GT4s and have worked on several 991s and added Power Kits. Your 385/282 number is spot on the money. That's why i love the Dynojet.
I would love to revive this thread again. We are starting the build of this yellow car next week. The goal will be to take it to Daytona International Speedway to see if we can set some records.
04-23-2020, 11:32 AM
#29
That car is definitely tuned. I'm not saying this because of the power it made but how it was made. In an untuned car the power dips when It comes on cam - you can feel this and see it. A good tune eliminates this as seen in your graph.
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MaynardZed (08-08-2020)
04-23-2020, 11:35 AM
#30
Reviving an older thread because we are bout to take delivery of a 991.1 S that i found in Texas, loaded with every option known to man, including my favorite Power Kit upgrade. A few notes from reading through...sorry for being late to the party:
1.) The PDK cars have to go in Rolling Dyno Mode - so you need the factory PIWIS computer. There were some folks that came up with some things a few years back that could emulate wheel speeds and that's the expensive equipment to which you're referring. Nowadays most all shops have them because they're cloned and imported from overseas. It allows you to put a PDK car in "Dyno Mode" so as not to freak out the computer when it doesn't see front wheel speeds. It's not expensive though. If you have a PDK 997.2 / 987.2 then in fact you have to go to a 4 wheel dyno and hook up the drums and work backwards into an interpolated rwhp/rwtq number.
2.) I have been studying the file in this car since 2016 because that's the package i put on our GT4 at 950 miles. The GTS is an animal. I think it's grossly underrated and i love the chance to upgrade them to the potential for the purpose built GT car. I will tell you though that of all of the stock ECU files, this one has the least room left on the table. It's fairtly aggressive from the factory and running on the edge of knock and when it's hot, adding 100 octane to the car will wake it up almost another 7 - 10 horsepower. Because of the big intake runners they don't make an enormous amount of peak torque but the curve is the flattest of any non-GT car Porsche builds. That's why you're making good power in the heat when it's 100F outside.
3.) Your dyno results are right on the money. we have built several X51 powered GT4s and have worked on several 991s and added Power Kits. Your 385/282 number is spot on the money. That's why i love the Dynojet.
I would love to revive this thread again. We are starting the build of this yellow car next week. The goal will be to take it to Daytona International Speedway to see if we can set some records.
1.) The PDK cars have to go in Rolling Dyno Mode - so you need the factory PIWIS computer. There were some folks that came up with some things a few years back that could emulate wheel speeds and that's the expensive equipment to which you're referring. Nowadays most all shops have them because they're cloned and imported from overseas. It allows you to put a PDK car in "Dyno Mode" so as not to freak out the computer when it doesn't see front wheel speeds. It's not expensive though. If you have a PDK 997.2 / 987.2 then in fact you have to go to a 4 wheel dyno and hook up the drums and work backwards into an interpolated rwhp/rwtq number.
2.) I have been studying the file in this car since 2016 because that's the package i put on our GT4 at 950 miles. The GTS is an animal. I think it's grossly underrated and i love the chance to upgrade them to the potential for the purpose built GT car. I will tell you though that of all of the stock ECU files, this one has the least room left on the table. It's fairtly aggressive from the factory and running on the edge of knock and when it's hot, adding 100 octane to the car will wake it up almost another 7 - 10 horsepower. Because of the big intake runners they don't make an enormous amount of peak torque but the curve is the flattest of any non-GT car Porsche builds. That's why you're making good power in the heat when it's 100F outside.
3.) Your dyno results are right on the money. we have built several X51 powered GT4s and have worked on several 991s and added Power Kits. Your 385/282 number is spot on the money. That's why i love the Dynojet.
I would love to revive this thread again. We are starting the build of this yellow car next week. The goal will be to take it to Daytona International Speedway to see if we can set some records.