Another one of these NA vs turbo threads
06-23-2018, 07:09 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
minthral, congratulations on your choice. You seem to be happy.
To me, although I am driving a turbo now, as for some other folk here NA engines have lots of things to like about. And it is not about the sound, at least not only, although the sound is sure better than FI. NA engines have immediate and direct link between the throttle and engine response. NA engines feel more communicative to a driver who wants to listen. And driving in higher rpm range is Fun. At least in a Porsche.
FI engines have their own advantages. More torque at lower rpms being IMO the biggest. More power. Less need to shift the gears (although this taking away some of the fun). Arguably better fuel economy (if it is important for you). They allow for smaller displacement w/o scarifying performance (but I do not care).
Bottom line there are people who have both and like them both for different reasons.
Happy for you making your choice
To me, although I am driving a turbo now, as for some other folk here NA engines have lots of things to like about. And it is not about the sound, at least not only, although the sound is sure better than FI. NA engines have immediate and direct link between the throttle and engine response. NA engines feel more communicative to a driver who wants to listen. And driving in higher rpm range is Fun. At least in a Porsche.
FI engines have their own advantages. More torque at lower rpms being IMO the biggest. More power. Less need to shift the gears (although this taking away some of the fun). Arguably better fuel economy (if it is important for you). They allow for smaller displacement w/o scarifying performance (but I do not care).
Bottom line there are people who have both and like them both for different reasons.
Happy for you making your choice
06-23-2018, 07:48 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Destin, Nashville, In a 458 Challenge
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This has been a recurring theme with 911s since I have been around and I had another sign in, forgot password to original, before I reregistered in early 2003 to ask a question about a Cayenne S I just purchased . . . first one delivered to US with a tow package. Porsche comes out with their face lifts and some stuck with the early models get a little public sour grape thingy worked up. Lol, I seriously remember when some of the 996 guys (I had 4 of them) where complaining about the new 997.1 headlights and styling being a step backwards and how awful it was.
Me, I just purchase the a new one every 12 to 36 months and smile because every single time the face lift upgrades have been nice touches and improvements. The cars, however, to hang on now are the 997.2 GTS and the 991.1 GTS. Also would not be bad to pick up the 997.1 tt Mezgers, especially the 2009 which is the .2 exterior and interior with the.1 Mezger. They are reasonably priced now and will hold value and desirability long term.
06-23-2018, 08:17 PM
#33
I’ve had my 991.2 gts pdk for roughly 6 months ,while I still think it’s fantasic car , and IMO it is a better car than the .1 in every single way , except sound and throttle response. Coming from a 981 gts , .2 gts was a much faster car and handled much better ,but there was still something missing , and I couldn’t get over the fact of how quiet it is inside. Sold it to the dealer and now have a 981 spyder ,I am now much more happy with the spyder ,it may be slower than the gts ,but it’s much more rewarding to drive. Hopefully there will be more 991.2 gt3 next year with reasonable mark up so I can ****** an NA marvel of an engine ,and keep it long term.
there are no right or wrong choices ,turbo or NA they’re great choices ,but I just prefer the NA experience in a porsche.
there are no right or wrong choices ,turbo or NA they’re great choices ,but I just prefer the NA experience in a porsche.
06-23-2018, 09:01 PM
#34
I very much agree, no wrong choices and I think it’s great that people are loving the 3.0tt engine. It’s just not for me and gets annoying that the slightest suggestion to that effect spawns a cascade of posts explaining that I just can’t afford it and so I’m being defensive or jealous or whatever it is.
06-23-2018, 11:45 PM
#35
Instructor
991.2 is arguably a better car than the 991.1:
- More natural feeling steering,
- RWS option,
- improved suspension,
- more hp and torque,
- higher acceleration and top speed,
- better ergonomics (the sport chrono mode switch on the steering wheel is easier to use),
- better infotainment system.
Taken in isolation from the engineering standpoint the 9A1 (NA) engine family is more impressive than the newer 9A2 (turbo) variant.
Pete von Behrens, who is an expert publishing in Porsche magazines, concluded: "The 991.2 is faster than the 991.1, but technically the engines seem to have moved the game backwards in many ways- more complexity, more weight, little upside other efficiency. Apparently Porsche felt comfortable enough with the 991's competitive position to save money in this area. "
More of his analysis of the two engines is in the following thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8932...-analysis.html
- More natural feeling steering,
- RWS option,
- improved suspension,
- more hp and torque,
- higher acceleration and top speed,
- better ergonomics (the sport chrono mode switch on the steering wheel is easier to use),
- better infotainment system.
Taken in isolation from the engineering standpoint the 9A1 (NA) engine family is more impressive than the newer 9A2 (turbo) variant.
Pete von Behrens, who is an expert publishing in Porsche magazines, concluded: "The 991.2 is faster than the 991.1, but technically the engines seem to have moved the game backwards in many ways- more complexity, more weight, little upside other efficiency. Apparently Porsche felt comfortable enough with the 991's competitive position to save money in this area. "
More of his analysis of the two engines is in the following thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8932...-analysis.html
06-24-2018, 12:02 AM
#36
Imo the .2 front end looks much better than the .1 . I haven't liked any of the 911 front ends since the 993. I think they nailed the 991.2 GT3, and the regular front end on the 991.2 looks much better than the 991.1
06-24-2018, 03:23 AM
#37
Maybe its not a strong point because I don't see how you got that impression. Sorry that you feel offended or took the wrong way.
I'm not telling anyone what they should like...just pointing out my experience on NA vs turbo for these cars. I guess that's rambling?
I'm expecting people to get defensive though.
I'm not telling anyone what they should like...just pointing out my experience on NA vs turbo for these cars. I guess that's rambling?
I'm expecting people to get defensive though.
06-24-2018, 03:37 AM
#38
Really? Again?
Anyway, to each their own.
I enjoy the sound of my .1 which to my ears is far superior to the .2 sound (both fundamentally and that it lacks the whistle which to me personally is like nails on a chalkboard), far more than I’ll utilize the extra 3-4 MPH trap speed and half second quarter mile time difference a .2 will provide while going WOT (something I never do). Personally, I find the .1’s sound advantage to outweigh the .2’s power advantage. There’s no universal law here. What matters to us is what matters to us.
Calling someone getting a car solely for sound “stupid” is like saying someone getting a car that’s a handful of tenths faster yet doesn’t sound as good (to the vast majority who’ll weigh in with an impartial opinion) is “stupid” as well. Obviously we enjoy the whole package (engaging rev necessary powerband, communicative immediate throttle, etc.), but place priorities on differing characteristics higher. Same as you.
IMO emotion outweighs logistics when it comes to 911’s. I find the N/A to be the former and smaller displacement turbos to be the latter. That’s just me, and maybe not you. Tomatoe, tomato.
And seriously. How many threads like these do we need? Can’t people just be content or ideally, dare I say, confident with what they have without saying “you have to like what I like too!”, or at least search through the plethora of older threads?
Anyway, to each their own.
I enjoy the sound of my .1 which to my ears is far superior to the .2 sound (both fundamentally and that it lacks the whistle which to me personally is like nails on a chalkboard), far more than I’ll utilize the extra 3-4 MPH trap speed and half second quarter mile time difference a .2 will provide while going WOT (something I never do). Personally, I find the .1’s sound advantage to outweigh the .2’s power advantage. There’s no universal law here. What matters to us is what matters to us.
Calling someone getting a car solely for sound “stupid” is like saying someone getting a car that’s a handful of tenths faster yet doesn’t sound as good (to the vast majority who’ll weigh in with an impartial opinion) is “stupid” as well. Obviously we enjoy the whole package (engaging rev necessary powerband, communicative immediate throttle, etc.), but place priorities on differing characteristics higher. Same as you.
IMO emotion outweighs logistics when it comes to 911’s. I find the N/A to be the former and smaller displacement turbos to be the latter. That’s just me, and maybe not you. Tomatoe, tomato.
And seriously. How many threads like these do we need? Can’t people just be content or ideally, dare I say, confident with what they have without saying “you have to like what I like too!”, or at least search through the plethora of older threads?
Last edited by K-A; 06-24-2018 at 11:02 AM.
06-24-2018, 03:47 AM
#39
991.2 is arguably a better car than the 991.1:
- More natural feeling steering,
- RWS option,
- improved suspension,
- more hp and torque,
- higher acceleration and top speed,
- better ergonomics (the sport chrono mode switch on the steering wheel is easier to use),
- better infotainment system.
Taken in isolation from the engineering standpoint the 9A1 (NA) engine family is more impressive than the newer 9A2 (turbo) variant.
Pete von Behrens, who is an expert publishing in Porsche magazines, concluded: "The 991.2 is faster than the 991.1, but technically the engines seem to have moved the game backwards in many ways- more complexity, more weight, little upside other efficiency. Apparently Porsche felt comfortable enough with the 991's competitive position to save money in this area. "
More of his analysis of the two engines is in the following thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8932...-analysis.html
- More natural feeling steering,
- RWS option,
- improved suspension,
- more hp and torque,
- higher acceleration and top speed,
- better ergonomics (the sport chrono mode switch on the steering wheel is easier to use),
- better infotainment system.
Taken in isolation from the engineering standpoint the 9A1 (NA) engine family is more impressive than the newer 9A2 (turbo) variant.
Pete von Behrens, who is an expert publishing in Porsche magazines, concluded: "The 991.2 is faster than the 991.1, but technically the engines seem to have moved the game backwards in many ways- more complexity, more weight, little upside other efficiency. Apparently Porsche felt comfortable enough with the 991's competitive position to save money in this area. "
More of his analysis of the two engines is in the following thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8932...-analysis.html
The .2 cars performance speaks for themselves, it’s marvelous. No debating that. But to me personally, the fact that .1 CS2’s have run 11.8 at 118 MPH with a 7.37.9 Ring time (just 3.9 seconds slower than the fastest .2 CS2 recorded Ring time) with an astounding for-a-non GT-N/A 3.5 second 0-60, and that the .1 base C2 with PDK and Sport Chrono can get under 4 seconds 0-60, and trap 115 MPH, is an utmost testament to Porsche’s logic defying brilliant engineering. To get those figures all motor, with the unadulterated sound, rendering them amongst the fastest N/A street cars (read: non GT) that will ever be made, beating tons of cars with F/I, bigger displacement, etc. is nothing short of pure genius. And that they weigh considerably less than 9A2’s is a sweet bonus.
I don’t get why some people can’t appreciate the fact that both turn magic, considering what they’re working with. I happen to find the 9A1’s more impressive from an engineering standpoint, but it doesn’t mean I don’t highly respect the 9A2 from an engineering standpoint. Not sure why some on the opposite side of the fence can’t allow themselves the same ability.
06-24-2018, 04:18 AM
#40
K-A do you really think that the readers of this forum need to see you recycle your buyers confirmation bias arguments again and again???
Please STOP!
Please STOP!
Last edited by Kallagtunet; 06-24-2018 at 05:10 AM.
06-24-2018, 04:25 AM
#41
06-24-2018, 08:11 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: S Carolina coast & N Carolina mountains
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Full disclosure: I have a 2017 C4S.
After daily driving a loud 981 boxster for nearly 70k miles, I consider myself someone who is the NA engine camp. I've praised the car for 'how good it sounds' and 'linear power delivery/response.' I've had plenty of fun with the top down, a low gear, and mountain road. As the saying goes, 'you don't know what you're missing till its gone.' This goes for both the good and the bad.
Some days I wasn't in the best mood and needed to drive to work or another reason. A normal person would leave the Porsche in the garage and take the SUV instead. I didn't. I was hooked on driving the Porsche and would take it without question; in fact, I would normally look for reasons to go drive it. Mainly, I liked the driving position/ ergonomics and the way the car handled stable and straight down the highway. Everything else just feels sloppy after driving a Porsche. Some days I didn't want to hear the engine or exhaust system - I just wanted to get to my destination without a headache. In traffic, BMWs were jumping from a stoplight effortlessly, but I had to rev it up, make lots of noise (feeling a bit silly sometimes), yet never really getting much of a power kick. That was okay, because the power was all usable and I mostly drove on highways anyway. Doing this over and over again got old...it was hard to explain this concept to others rarely in the car and I would have never thought I'd be in such a situation because sound was one my buying points for the boxster.
I sold the boxster for various reasons, but less than a year later I found myself missing the 'Porsche experience.' This time I wanted to buy a 911 because it had rear seats (requirement per wife for rare kid hauling) and was more of a GT car that suited my driving style better. Comparing the 991.1 and 991.2 cars back to back, I immediately noted that the .1 car sounds 'better' and familiar, yet still quieter than my last boxster. Emotion took over saying I should buy this low miles 2015 GTS no question. I drove around a bit and while the GTS was no slouch, the new turbo engine in a base model felt obviously more responsive and faster. It didn't really behave like the turbo I was expecting...more like an NA engine with a shot of adrenaline rather than the traditional on/off turbo kick. I was in a bit of bind with no clear direction...do I want the faster newer car or the older 'better sounding' one.
I slept on it and let a few weeks pass then looked into it again. This time the emotion of 'engine sound' had waded and I realized that the turbo car sounds 'different' rather than worse. It is less droning while cruising (something I hated on my boxster) and is quieter in lower RPMs (great because sometimes I'm not in the mood to listen a subwoofer all the time), yet you revving it out, you still get the 'howling flat 6' experience inside the cabin. The NA engine sounds raspier/bassier down low and mid, which some might perceive this as 'better.' The turbo has whistles and louder PSE backfires (AKA 'character sounds'), but it doesn't have the same building raspy growl. Neither sounds like a Ferrari and I'm sure guys in corvette forums will claim their V8 sounds better. I know my boxster with the top down and the right road sounded better than the 991.1 GTS. The new turbo McLaren 570s is no better or worse than a 991.2. Why was I even so focused on the sound where I vividly remember driving home with a headache and keeping the NA rev'd 3K+ to avoid drone? I looked at how the power train actually did it's job (you know move the car?) and the newer generation was clearly more responsive, faster, and just better. The mid and low end torque is quickly accessible for normal driving and higher RPMs are there to pass with ease at excessive speeds. Driving the older car felt clearly a step back in time (both the good and the bad).
This experience had me realize that buying a car based on sound alone is just plain stupid. Its what you do based on emotion before logic sets in. Might be a fun thing short term, but is it going to be long term? Also, who's to say what sounds better? Its preference...some people might not even want a loud car and would prefer Porsche to hurry up and release a quiet electric 911 that handles like a 911. I didn't buy mine to (primarily) listen to engine rev out...I bought it because of the way I fit in it and the way it handles. I could have bought a Tesla, but didn't...fact that it is fast and efficient didn't matter...I just didn't like how the car handled or felt going down a road. The 'Porsche handling' is what I'm after and if they put a silent electric engine into a future generation that still has this, I'll probably buy it.
The newer generation is just a better car. Its faster, has better power response (unless revved it out, the old NA has dead spots and hesitation from a deadstop with PDK), is more efficient MPG cruising, better tech, handling is tighter (a fact that keeps getting overlooked), rear axle steering makes the car more agile, wider tires, nicer steering wheel, and new PCM is a generation ahead. There are subtle improvements in the facelift like door handles are no longer a separate piece and slicker front bumper/ rear end. Aside from the engine, there are many technical internal improvements including the AWD system, PDK, and even things like exhaust. All these little things matter and stack up. The new car feels more precise compared to the old, yet some people don't care and get cause up in the sounds the car makes.
Forced induction makes cars faster <period>. Many prefer a car with a turbo on it and this is normally a sign of 'higher performance car.' Unless its a V8 with 13 MPG, an NA engine feels slow to some. Nearly all performance cars have turbos or are supercharged now-a-days. The technology works and a better question is why did Porsche take so long to putting turbos in the 911. They had it available as the highest end model out of reach for many. They're forced to add turbos to all their cars to stay competitive and relevant. So they did a good thing by creating a great engine that more of less acts like an NA, yet is amazingly quick, and still sounds like a flat 6. Isn't fast acceleration a hallmark of a good sports car and not the sound produced by gas coming out of tailpipes? People should celebrate the new engines instead of whine about 'how they like their NA engine sound.' Sounds get old after a while, but performance doesn't.
I think car people should move on and stop kicking the dead horse of 'my NA engine sounds better.' How are you guys going to accept that perhaps future cars will all be electric?
After daily driving a loud 981 boxster for nearly 70k miles, I consider myself someone who is the NA engine camp. I've praised the car for 'how good it sounds' and 'linear power delivery/response.' I've had plenty of fun with the top down, a low gear, and mountain road. As the saying goes, 'you don't know what you're missing till its gone.' This goes for both the good and the bad.
Some days I wasn't in the best mood and needed to drive to work or another reason. A normal person would leave the Porsche in the garage and take the SUV instead. I didn't. I was hooked on driving the Porsche and would take it without question; in fact, I would normally look for reasons to go drive it. Mainly, I liked the driving position/ ergonomics and the way the car handled stable and straight down the highway. Everything else just feels sloppy after driving a Porsche. Some days I didn't want to hear the engine or exhaust system - I just wanted to get to my destination without a headache. In traffic, BMWs were jumping from a stoplight effortlessly, but I had to rev it up, make lots of noise (feeling a bit silly sometimes), yet never really getting much of a power kick. That was okay, because the power was all usable and I mostly drove on highways anyway. Doing this over and over again got old...it was hard to explain this concept to others rarely in the car and I would have never thought I'd be in such a situation because sound was one my buying points for the boxster.
I sold the boxster for various reasons, but less than a year later I found myself missing the 'Porsche experience.' This time I wanted to buy a 911 because it had rear seats (requirement per wife for rare kid hauling) and was more of a GT car that suited my driving style better. Comparing the 991.1 and 991.2 cars back to back, I immediately noted that the .1 car sounds 'better' and familiar, yet still quieter than my last boxster. Emotion took over saying I should buy this low miles 2015 GTS no question. I drove around a bit and while the GTS was no slouch, the new turbo engine in a base model felt obviously more responsive and faster. It didn't really behave like the turbo I was expecting...more like an NA engine with a shot of adrenaline rather than the traditional on/off turbo kick. I was in a bit of bind with no clear direction...do I want the faster newer car or the older 'better sounding' one.
I slept on it and let a few weeks pass then looked into it again. This time the emotion of 'engine sound' had waded and I realized that the turbo car sounds 'different' rather than worse. It is less droning while cruising (something I hated on my boxster) and is quieter in lower RPMs (great because sometimes I'm not in the mood to listen a subwoofer all the time), yet you revving it out, you still get the 'howling flat 6' experience inside the cabin. The NA engine sounds raspier/bassier down low and mid, which some might perceive this as 'better.' The turbo has whistles and louder PSE backfires (AKA 'character sounds'), but it doesn't have the same building raspy growl. Neither sounds like a Ferrari and I'm sure guys in corvette forums will claim their V8 sounds better. I know my boxster with the top down and the right road sounded better than the 991.1 GTS. The new turbo McLaren 570s is no better or worse than a 991.2. Why was I even so focused on the sound where I vividly remember driving home with a headache and keeping the NA rev'd 3K+ to avoid drone? I looked at how the power train actually did it's job (you know move the car?) and the newer generation was clearly more responsive, faster, and just better. The mid and low end torque is quickly accessible for normal driving and higher RPMs are there to pass with ease at excessive speeds. Driving the older car felt clearly a step back in time (both the good and the bad).
This experience had me realize that buying a car based on sound alone is just plain stupid. Its what you do based on emotion before logic sets in. Might be a fun thing short term, but is it going to be long term? Also, who's to say what sounds better? Its preference...some people might not even want a loud car and would prefer Porsche to hurry up and release a quiet electric 911 that handles like a 911. I didn't buy mine to (primarily) listen to engine rev out...I bought it because of the way I fit in it and the way it handles. I could have bought a Tesla, but didn't...fact that it is fast and efficient didn't matter...I just didn't like how the car handled or felt going down a road. The 'Porsche handling' is what I'm after and if they put a silent electric engine into a future generation that still has this, I'll probably buy it.
The newer generation is just a better car. Its faster, has better power response (unless revved it out, the old NA has dead spots and hesitation from a deadstop with PDK), is more efficient MPG cruising, better tech, handling is tighter (a fact that keeps getting overlooked), rear axle steering makes the car more agile, wider tires, nicer steering wheel, and new PCM is a generation ahead. There are subtle improvements in the facelift like door handles are no longer a separate piece and slicker front bumper/ rear end. Aside from the engine, there are many technical internal improvements including the AWD system, PDK, and even things like exhaust. All these little things matter and stack up. The new car feels more precise compared to the old, yet some people don't care and get cause up in the sounds the car makes.
Forced induction makes cars faster <period>. Many prefer a car with a turbo on it and this is normally a sign of 'higher performance car.' Unless its a V8 with 13 MPG, an NA engine feels slow to some. Nearly all performance cars have turbos or are supercharged now-a-days. The technology works and a better question is why did Porsche take so long to putting turbos in the 911. They had it available as the highest end model out of reach for many. They're forced to add turbos to all their cars to stay competitive and relevant. So they did a good thing by creating a great engine that more of less acts like an NA, yet is amazingly quick, and still sounds like a flat 6. Isn't fast acceleration a hallmark of a good sports car and not the sound produced by gas coming out of tailpipes? People should celebrate the new engines instead of whine about 'how they like their NA engine sound.' Sounds get old after a while, but performance doesn't.
I think car people should move on and stop kicking the dead horse of 'my NA engine sounds better.' How are you guys going to accept that perhaps future cars will all be electric?
06-24-2018, 09:10 AM
#43
Taken in isolation from the engineering standpoint the 9A1 (NA) engine family is more impressive than the newer 9A2 (turbo) variant.
Pete von Behrens, who is an expert publishing in Porsche magazines, concluded: "The 991.2 is faster than the 991.1, but technically the engines seem to have moved the game backwards in many ways- more complexity, more weight, little upside other efficiency. Apparently Porsche felt comfortable enough with the 991's competitive position to save money in this area. "
More of his analysis of the two engines is in the following thread: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/8932...-analysis.html
Ha not 3800 CC so not intended to race? First this isn't a race car...second F1 uses tiny displacement turbo engines for racing... not huge displacement NA.
Backwards? He himself says its faster, more efficient, cheaper to make, and more reliable. How is that backwards?
40 more LB on the rear axle is NO BIG DEAL. The car can handle it and you wont even notice. Might even give you more grip to accelerate faster.
06-24-2018, 09:49 AM
#44
Instructor
Sorry, but this is a biased 'opinion.' Its the same engine, but heavier due to turbo gear bolted on. Of course its more complicated/heavier... they added turbos.
Ha not 3800 CC so not intended to race? First this isn't a race car...second F1 uses tiny displacement turbo engines for racing... not huge displacement NA.
Backwards? He himself says its faster, more efficient, cheaper to make, and more reliable. How is that backwards?
40 more LB on the rear axle is NO BIG DEAL. The car can handle it and you wont even notice. Might even give you more grip to accelerate faster.
Ha not 3800 CC so not intended to race? First this isn't a race car...second F1 uses tiny displacement turbo engines for racing... not huge displacement NA.
Backwards? He himself says its faster, more efficient, cheaper to make, and more reliable. How is that backwards?
40 more LB on the rear axle is NO BIG DEAL. The car can handle it and you wont even notice. Might even give you more grip to accelerate faster.
From a user/driver standpoint it's a step forward, as its power is easier to extract than the 9A1.
As for the overall car, I have clearly indicated above the reasons why the 991.2 is better than the 991.1.
06-24-2018, 10:44 AM
#45
Being an engineer myself, I can appreciate one man's opinion about what he thinks is backwards or forwards 'from an engineering standpoint,' but its just that... one man's opinion. 9A2 has been winning awards such as 'engine of the year' etc...apparently many people disagree with him as well.
Last edited by minthral; 06-24-2018 at 11:18 AM. Reason: grammar