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Put a couple of hundred kms on these before tracking
Yep, I have 300 km's on them now, and will be at least another 300 by Friday - Which is the track day.
All of the Elephant bits are going on tomorrow. So the car should be really special when I pic it up in about 24 hours from now. RSL 29's and SRF going in as well.
I found some time to get back to the dyno following the install of the BMC filter element and the IPD plenum. If you've been following this thread you will be able to see that while i'm a vendor for these products and while I support these products, I approach this stuff as both a salesperson AND an end user. I am 100% transparent in my findings, I don't do a single thing to make these thing look better than they are, I don't use fans, I don't dyno the car when it's cold to enhance performance gains. I struggle however with this car because it produces so much horsepower and torque on the first dyno run and falls off faster than anything I've ever seen following the 2nd and 3rd pulls; this is however the first turbo Porsche I've ever developed for BGB so this horsepower and torque loss from heat soak is new to me. Having said that, it's 100% clear to me why every single person tells me I need intercoolers. After run 1 the throttle begins to close because of torque limiting for boost control reasons because the ECU is very savvy when it comes to protecting the drivetrain and I have not touched that aspect of the equation nor do I ever intend to do so. I am all about making power and torque but I do not ever suggest trimming back knock sensors or overriding boost protection modes because I want 100% reliability. I'm in this to prepare something that can withstand track abuse FIRST and then sell parts SECOND.
Having said that, I don't know how much stock we can put into this dyno comparison of the intake because I dyno'd the car 2 weeks ago with just the flash at 11:30 in the morning and then went back two days later but couldn't get on the dyno until 1:30 in the afternoon. The biggest mistake I made was that I did NOT hit the Sports Plus button when I did my pull so what you are going to see is a dyno comparison of the car with an IPD Plenum, BMC Filter & Cobb Tune WITHOUT SPORTS PLUS OR SPORT vs. the car with the Cobb Tune and Sports Plus pushed. My driving impressions were that the car felt stronger in the mid-range and about the same at the top of the RPM range and it shows on the dyno. The reason i am hesitant to post this dyno run is because i think the experiment isn't controlled enough because it takes place across 2 weeks and was done at different times of the day. I don't like how quickly the car heat soaks and having looked at the logs from yesterday's dyno run the throttle blade is closing over 6K RPM to induce torque limiting. You can see the throttle controlling the boost in the blue power curve at the top of the rev range because it's perfectly flat because the ECU is opening and closing the throttle to control the power. Finally, this Cobb tune is a Stage I tune and the car was not tuned for the intake upgrade. Once i start making my custom Stage II tunes i expect to be able to clean up some small areas but i don't plan to try and create further gains than what Cobb has already given the public. 100 HP / 100 lb/ft from a flash is still the best money spent for this car.
My goal is to bolt as much power to this car as possible and make it feel as fast as possible and since it's such a royal PITA to change the air filter, I suggest that those considering a plenum do so ONLY if they're going to change the air filter as well. As you can see in the pics, the plenum is buried. I have spoken to IPD about a plenum with a bigger throttle body but there's not much room in that engine bay to begin with so they offer a plenum ONLY solution at the moment. Those that know me know that I am very upfront. I was given this plenum to try as an experiment for IPD because they have only dyno'd one other 991.2 and we both got similar results and are both fighting the heat soak.
I would probably be better off inside a climate controlled dyno room with fans blowing every which way but i'm only interested in worst case scenarios because when I go on track in Florida where it's hotter than hell, that's the environment I want for my dyno. These runs assume no air going over the car in any way, shape or form.
I expect to see my Cargraphic bypass pipes next week; they have asked that i dyno a set of pipes WITH & WITHOUT catalytics because we dont sell catless pipes to anyone for the street and everyone asks how much restriction the cats present for exhaust flow.
Enjoy!
991.2 OE Plenum vs. IPD
Cobb Stage 1 + IPD Plenum vs. Cobb Stage I + OE Plenum
Great write up John. Good to see I wan't the only one struggling to dyno this car. My results were cleaner as we did have a fan. The car still heat soaks fast on the dyno. I haven't done the BMC filter just the IPD. It was a yes or no question for me. Does it make power.....the answer is Yes.
I since have the AMS intercoolers fitted. P.S. I was driving past PWR the other day and popped in. Theya re here in OZ. How cool is that. I asked about the 3 Upgraded radiators and they have them. : )
COBB still have not sent me an empty box yet. They must be swamped. Its been almost a month. My big track day is in less than 48 hours. I will have to pull the ECU and send it away after that. This is fun. lol.
What internal air temp were you getting too when you saw the throttle blade start to close? 140F or higher?
The temps are off the charts. The IATs are 185F when you roll into it and peak as high as 215F at the end! No wonder I need intercoolers. it's also just stupid hot and humid where we are.
Originally Posted by arter
What calculate engine torque (via the cobb datalog) were you getting?
This is why love the Cobb hardware because that number was within 10 of what I saw on the Dynojet if you do the drivetrain loss math. If there's a calculated engine power number on the Accessport I forgot to select it but I selected all of the torque channels (there are 7 i believe and when flooking at those i saw that the car registered 490 max at 4.5K on the Accesport log and 440 max at the same RPM on the dyno; if I use my standard Porsche 12.5% loss figure, that's within 10lb/ft because I come up with 428 lb/ft at the tires . It's been my experience that the torque numbers usually vary more (dyno vs. engine power number from the car's can bus) so I would expect the power number to be as close or better.
Originally Posted by 4 Point 0
Great write up John. Good to see I wan't the only one struggling to dyno this car. My results were cleaner as we did have a fan. The car still heat soaks fast on the dyno. I haven't done the BMC filter just the IPD. It was a yes or no question for me. Does it make power.....the answer is Yes.
I since have the AMS intercoolers fitted. P.S. I was driving past PWR the other day and popped in. Theya re here in OZ. How cool is that. I asked about the 3 Upgraded radiators and they have them. : )
COBB still have not sent me an empty box yet. They must be swamped. Its been almost a month. My big track day is in less than 48 hours. I will have to pull the ECU and send it away after that. This is fun. lol.
I can't say enough about PWR products; those are the radiators I will put on the car. I have delayed the installation of the center radiator because I think I want to just skip the OE center and go for all C&R/PWR. I've been helping the PWR (and now C&R) develop Porsche radiators since 2012 for the U.S Porsche market. we sell a lot of them. We started using them in 2010 on our IMSA Cayman race cars because they not only cool better than any other engine coolant radiator you can find, they survive crash damage better than anything you will ever see! And I wish I couldn't say I've proved that over half a dozen times but my customers have been in accidents on track and they still hold fluid! I helped them do the fitment for all drop in 987 radiators AND 981 radiators. Everything is literally plug and play on those cars. The coolers are different on the 991.2 but eventually it will all work if it doesn't already. They merged with C&R here in the states. It's all top end stuff that is on some of the world's greatest race cars. When we won a championship in IMSA in 2012 our car was listed in between an IRL championship car and another top tier car with F1 cars listed as well. It's the nicest stuff you can get and when it comes to these cars and temps, cooling shouldn't be short cut. I can't say enough about their employees, etc.
Email or message me your contact info - why didn't you tell me you didn't get your Cobb RMA? I will handle it myself!
Please forgive me if I am mistaken as I am not a professional dyno chart reader..
Based on what I am seeing (and I would like some comments either way) the IPD:
1. performs WORSE that stock from 1000 rpm to 4200 rpm
2. performs BETTER from 4200-5300 rpms
3. performs THE SAME from 5300 rpms to redline
The numbers for both torque and HP essentially mirror each other and increase/decrease at the same rpms.
Let me point out that the IPD produces a maximum of 18 torque and 16 more HP at its BEST plots
and the Factory plenum produces 36 more torque and 20 more hp at its best plots
In addition, the factory plenum produces more power over 3200 total rpm range and IPD over only 1100 total rpm range.
4 point 0: PLEASE TELL ME HOW YOU CAN SAY THAT THE IPD MAKES ANY MORE POWER THAN THE STOCK PLENUM.
I think the chart would support that the stock plenum produces more HP and torque at it peaks and over a broader range than the IPD.
If the chart was reversed and you told me the stock graph was the IPD graph, I would be more inclined to buy it due to higher peaks and broader range.
Sorry guys, this falls under the snake oil category for me, just as my speed shop guys told me it would.
John, great work. I know you want this thing to be a bolt on HP maker, but until you can show proof it does anything I would never put this in my car...
Please forgive me if I am mistaken as I am not a professional dyno chart reader..
Based on what I am seeing (and I would like some comments either way) the IPD:
1. performs WORSE that stock from 1000 rpm to 4200 rpm
2. performs BETTER from 4200-5300 rpms
3. performs THE SAME from 5300 rpms to redline
The numbers for both torque and HP essentially mirror each other and increase/decrease at the same rpms.
Let me point out that the IPD produces a maximum of 18 torque and 16 more HP at its BEST plots
and the Factory plenum produces 36 more torque and 20 more hp at its best plots
In addition, the factory plenum produces more power over 3200 total rpm range and IPD over only 1100 total rpm range.
4 point 0: PLEASE TELL ME HOW YOU CAN SAY THAT THE IPD MAKES ANY MORE POWER THAN THE STOCK PLENUM.
I think the chart would support that the stock plenum produces more HP and torque at it peaks and over a broader range than the IPD.
If the chart was reversed and you told me the stock graph was the IPD graph, I would be more inclined to buy it due to higher peaks and broader range.
Sorry guys, this falls under the snake oil category for me, just as my speed shop guys told me it would.
John, great work. I know you want this thing to be a bolt on HP maker, but until you can show proof it does anything I would never put this in my car...
Check out post 109 a little more carefully.
The dyno results were skewed due to several reasons. I'm not defending the IPD plenum, but this dyno comparison is not fully accurate. Running fans are a MUST on any car and any dyno. This dyno lacked that which caused massive heat soak which led to an inaccurate comparison.
BGB, thank you so very much for posting all this info.
"Running fans are a must on any car and dyno.." Well, thats your opinion, but regardless of this, both readings were done on the same dyno, same location, same part of the country and BOTH without fans.
Its not like one was done with fans and the other without, so the readings are accurate (to me) because of the nearly identical parameters. Yes. one was done at 11:30am and the other at 1:30pm.
If dyno runs need to be taken at the exact time of day then NO dyno charts can be accurate because no two will be taken at the same minute in time..
The fact that we have the exact same car on the exact same dyno at the exact same location to me is about as accurate as you are going to ever get.
Both cars heat soaked after the first pull. OK, that's fair to me. Then lets compare the readings taken from the first pull, which John did. Based on those readings I pulled this info..
Finally, I am not knowledgeable enough to know how much a setting on the steering wheel will impact HP and torque, especially when you are mashing the pedal to redline regardless, so that to me is the only variable.
I would like to also add that the BNC filter alone could possibly be a contributing factor in these readings and that the gains are so minimal (and in some case negative) that the plenum being negligible is very possible.
JOHN: If you really want to get to the bottom of this, go back to the same dyno and ask to get a pull at exactly 11:30 and hit the Sports button
You cant go back and pull the parts to take a stock pull, so the only logical way is to go back at 11:30 and take a pull with the button pushed.
I will take a bet that it wont make a bit of difference and the chart will be identical...
Well, in my opinion the running fans are needed to mock airflow and turbulence to simulate actual driving (air flowing and ramming into the car). Now I'm not saying point the blowers directly into the intake but rather having at least a fan or two mocking airflow. IAT's won't sky rocket as bad as they do on BGB's dyno testing. Any car thats on a stationary dyno and under full load will heat soak to the maximum without some sort of fan helping to simulate actual driving. I'm willing to bet that BGB's car runs much cooler while driving which in theory will make even more hp than whats showing on this dyno.
Another argument to be made is that the Cobb tune is without a doubt increasing engine temps all around. More boost, more heat. 100hp/100tq comes at a secondary costs (heat) which will cause further suffocation.
Also the whole normal/sport/sport+ thing is another mystery.. What about the sport response button itself? Try pushing the button right before beginning the dyno run and see what that does.
In my opinion: There needs to be one big fan blowing air directly in front of the car (air flows from the front of the car to the back). Along with 2 other small fans placed on the floor next to the rear wheels also blowing towards the back of the car so that the intake ducts on the bottom of the bumper catch some air.. Now I've seen multiple 991.2 dynos were they had 2 fans blowing directly into the ducts at the bottom of the bumper which IMO is wrong and plays a role in inflated numbers.
In my humble opinion dyno analysis needs to be consistent. You either run fans every time or you don't. You either go back to the same dyno in the same fashion or you don't.
@PTS-BRG I'm comfortable with the analysis I did. At $200 for every dyno visit and 3 hours of my day each time, I'm not going back again til I have the catless bypass pipes. You're entitled to your opinion of the IPD. I considered not posting the dyno run because I knew some would react this way but whatever, it's a forum and it's here for discussion. I'll report back after my next dyno test of the bypass pipes.
07-29-2018, 12:56 AM
