Nick Murray Porsche negotiation
01-06-2018, 10:24 PM
#121
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
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Interesting comment from CJ re: big players and price fixing in a region.
If true, I guess that matters if you want to buy local, but my experience (albeit not Porsche specific) is that the big guys know how to manage inventory and are focused on volume to get the lucrative parts/service money (and financing profit) so they will usually be willing to discount more and it is often worth it to go out of state to a big dealer to get a better price.
Which brings me to my one big peeve about porsche and that is the parts/service costs. $43 for a GT3 oil filter from the cheapest source I could find (suncoast/Pelican) even the mahle is $35. $300 oil changes, $1500 for a 20k service, $700 a piece rotors, $25k for a new PDK transmission (just the part), it’s insane. I will still take my car to the dealer, but for that price if stuff is not done to my standards, I will just do it myself (I am extremely OCD about service and repair and have tons of repair/restoration/service experience and every tool imaginable — I did have to buy a 3/4in torque wrench though — so dealer service is just me being lazy).
If true, I guess that matters if you want to buy local, but my experience (albeit not Porsche specific) is that the big guys know how to manage inventory and are focused on volume to get the lucrative parts/service money (and financing profit) so they will usually be willing to discount more and it is often worth it to go out of state to a big dealer to get a better price.
Which brings me to my one big peeve about porsche and that is the parts/service costs. $43 for a GT3 oil filter from the cheapest source I could find (suncoast/Pelican) even the mahle is $35. $300 oil changes, $1500 for a 20k service, $700 a piece rotors, $25k for a new PDK transmission (just the part), it’s insane. I will still take my car to the dealer, but for that price if stuff is not done to my standards, I will just do it myself (I am extremely OCD about service and repair and have tons of repair/restoration/service experience and every tool imaginable — I did have to buy a 3/4in torque wrench though — so dealer service is just me being lazy).
01-06-2018, 11:04 PM
#122
Rennlist Member
Wow I just sat down and read this whole 12 page thread in one go. Really took a turn there. As a younger dealer, having bought and traded and sold far too many cars during my athlete career...I can relate to a lot of the negativity and those defending a more gentlemanly conduct about fairness. If your local dealer makes the effort for your business and your friends and such- that's lucky. I had been hosed and spoken down to plenty of times before I found my way...but like life I always had a long term plan- work towards getting the big dog special cars.
I decided to pursue being a dealer because I was serially mistreated by dozens of sales staff, managers, etc over the years. The people who treated me well, with respect (mind you I was a 26 year old buying a new GT3) earned my loyalty. I have dealt with 10-15 Porsche stores and would only buy from 3-4 of them.
I worked through high school and college at Nordstroms and try to apply that to my personal style in the stores. Assess the needs of the client. Achieve consensus. Be friendly. Follow up. Very simple.
Some of you guys on here really sweat over different aspects of it- at the end of the day the real question is- how do you want your car ownership experience to go? I was definitely willing to sell anything on the lot in November and December for heavy discounts in order to grow our allocation. I have only had the store for 9 months. Gotta grow and a break even deal in October is better than a loser deal in January. Does my 1,000 discount today get me 4-5 referrals from you? 3 more sales to you in the next few years? If so I do that deal all day. I will absolutely negotiate down to sell cars to earn future business and most importantly for a small store like mine- get bigger so we can get more cool cars.
But I will say to you guys with the "F Em All" attitude- you will run the mom+pop stores (like mine) out and the Big Dog groups (Lithia, AutoNation etc) will take that store over. Once they establish a Monopoly over a few local brands, a region, good luck as they can actually manage ways to price fix etc.
The absolute worst case scenario is direct sales. You will get worse service and worse prices...go negotiate or complain about Tesla build quality and see how that goes...it goes nowhere. At least if you think my store sucks you can call Park Place or whatever out of state Premium dealer...
On happier notes- if you want to have a good relationship with a dealer, tell them what you want and what you expect and when they meet it- follow through on your end. I have a few local customers who have agreed to prices and shaken hands and backed out or tried to renegotiate terms. That's the same as the "oh your GT3 is in, but you have to play market price".
We don't do that and customers who engage like that will only be backup backup backups on slots for cool cars. I have made mistakes and overpaid by a grand or a few here or there on trades. I make mistakes too but if I was to say oh wait that number we shook on your car sucked more than i thought so i need to give you less...that's bush league. I need to do the research too.
Happy shopping in 2018 and enjoy your cars.
I decided to pursue being a dealer because I was serially mistreated by dozens of sales staff, managers, etc over the years. The people who treated me well, with respect (mind you I was a 26 year old buying a new GT3) earned my loyalty. I have dealt with 10-15 Porsche stores and would only buy from 3-4 of them.
I worked through high school and college at Nordstroms and try to apply that to my personal style in the stores. Assess the needs of the client. Achieve consensus. Be friendly. Follow up. Very simple.
Some of you guys on here really sweat over different aspects of it- at the end of the day the real question is- how do you want your car ownership experience to go? I was definitely willing to sell anything on the lot in November and December for heavy discounts in order to grow our allocation. I have only had the store for 9 months. Gotta grow and a break even deal in October is better than a loser deal in January. Does my 1,000 discount today get me 4-5 referrals from you? 3 more sales to you in the next few years? If so I do that deal all day. I will absolutely negotiate down to sell cars to earn future business and most importantly for a small store like mine- get bigger so we can get more cool cars.
But I will say to you guys with the "F Em All" attitude- you will run the mom+pop stores (like mine) out and the Big Dog groups (Lithia, AutoNation etc) will take that store over. Once they establish a Monopoly over a few local brands, a region, good luck as they can actually manage ways to price fix etc.
The absolute worst case scenario is direct sales. You will get worse service and worse prices...go negotiate or complain about Tesla build quality and see how that goes...it goes nowhere. At least if you think my store sucks you can call Park Place or whatever out of state Premium dealer...
On happier notes- if you want to have a good relationship with a dealer, tell them what you want and what you expect and when they meet it- follow through on your end. I have a few local customers who have agreed to prices and shaken hands and backed out or tried to renegotiate terms. That's the same as the "oh your GT3 is in, but you have to play market price".
We don't do that and customers who engage like that will only be backup backup backups on slots for cool cars. I have made mistakes and overpaid by a grand or a few here or there on trades. I make mistakes too but if I was to say oh wait that number we shook on your car sucked more than i thought so i need to give you less...that's bush league. I need to do the research too.
Happy shopping in 2018 and enjoy your cars.
Thanks for posting valuable insight from a dealers perspective and have a Happy, healthy and prosperous 2018.
I would do business with you in a second but I'm very lucky to be working with my local dealership Porsche West Broward.
01-07-2018, 02:36 AM
#124
Pro
You have all the weapons, go to war. I just purchased a brand new '17 GTS. Sticker 150k MSRP. Got 10% off and purchased it at $135. I still feel like I overpaid but I'm very happy with the price. I had to shop nationwide for this deal but it was the color I wanted with all my must have options.I had dealerships asking me if I was crazy, flat out ignoring me, and a bunch of NO'S. Also had a couple smug salesman trying their best(WEAK) attempt at making a point. Just moved on.
I must admit I got sick and tired of looking at one point because it was consuming so much time, I'm just happy it all worked out. When I finally made this deal and wanted to push for those last few thousand dollars off I ended up ditching the salesman and called the sales manager directly. Told him I was really serious about the car and wouldn't waste his time by contacting him directly. Salesman held his ground at final price of $138,500. I told the sales manager my real no BS price was $134,750 and if he agreed I'd slap down a deposit right then and there on the phone. He got quiet for a long while, sighed loudly and said "Okay let me at least make 400 bucks on the car.. How about $135,800?". I told him to hang on a minute.. Put that **** on mute and wondered if I should continue to punish him... Giggled to myself I bit and decided I was happy with the price. Picked the phone back up and made my deposit.
Lived happily ever after.
I must admit I got sick and tired of looking at one point because it was consuming so much time, I'm just happy it all worked out. When I finally made this deal and wanted to push for those last few thousand dollars off I ended up ditching the salesman and called the sales manager directly. Told him I was really serious about the car and wouldn't waste his time by contacting him directly. Salesman held his ground at final price of $138,500. I told the sales manager my real no BS price was $134,750 and if he agreed I'd slap down a deposit right then and there on the phone. He got quiet for a long while, sighed loudly and said "Okay let me at least make 400 bucks on the car.. How about $135,800?". I told him to hang on a minute.. Put that **** on mute and wondered if I should continue to punish him... Giggled to myself I bit and decided I was happy with the price. Picked the phone back up and made my deposit.
Lived happily ever after.
01-07-2018, 11:21 AM
#125
Platinum Dealership
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For those of you commenting on the chain of command type thing-
If your initial sales guy is not your style- ask to go straight to the sales manager and see if they can get you what you want. On initial visit, sometimes the primary guy is a n00b or whatever and maybe not your right fit- especially at big stores because they will have 6-10 sales people. It does surprise me that any of you would ever go in naked without a few recommended people to speak with since yelp/rennlist/ pca etc all have customers that you could theoretically read reviews etc. if I go somewhere I always try to get a name first and ask specifically for them. Gets things off on a better foot, and then sales guy is not as high pressure.
We have 3 stores in one parking lot so sometimes if you are wandering around you might be getting a BMW guy or an Audi guy who is less specialized in Porsches. Although from this year forward we are doing mandatory cross training for everyone in Porsche/ Audi.
In regards to service cost- some locales charge extra and you can ask them what the labor rate is before you start...but if you have to pay for a transmission failure out of pocket that's not going to be cheap in ANY car- a Nissan GTR or a 911 or an E63 will all be 20k +
If your initial sales guy is not your style- ask to go straight to the sales manager and see if they can get you what you want. On initial visit, sometimes the primary guy is a n00b or whatever and maybe not your right fit- especially at big stores because they will have 6-10 sales people. It does surprise me that any of you would ever go in naked without a few recommended people to speak with since yelp/rennlist/ pca etc all have customers that you could theoretically read reviews etc. if I go somewhere I always try to get a name first and ask specifically for them. Gets things off on a better foot, and then sales guy is not as high pressure.
We have 3 stores in one parking lot so sometimes if you are wandering around you might be getting a BMW guy or an Audi guy who is less specialized in Porsches. Although from this year forward we are doing mandatory cross training for everyone in Porsche/ Audi.
In regards to service cost- some locales charge extra and you can ask them what the labor rate is before you start...but if you have to pay for a transmission failure out of pocket that's not going to be cheap in ANY car- a Nissan GTR or a 911 or an E63 will all be 20k +
01-07-2018, 01:02 PM
#126
01-07-2018, 02:36 PM
#127
Pro
They should not care, sales comp is based on units sold, not the value of what is being sold. As a data point, the Sonic dealer group sells 35k cars a month (across all brands); inventory turnover and aging are the metrics that matter for them.
01-07-2018, 03:11 PM
#128
SJW, a Carin' kinda guy
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
$1500 for the trans in my Chevy, $2k for my defenders, tore down a lotus trans with a friend and it was under $1000 in parts. No parts available for the PDK. Crazy. Hopefully it is different for the 6MT and 7MT.
On the costs, it's not just the "sticker" hourly rate, it's that dealers charge a multiple of book time for repairs and service. How long does a 20k service take a tech and how much are you charged in labor? Tech can do it in X hours (or Porsche pays Y hours on the service plan) and you are charged way more. Twice book time is not uncommon for out of warranty repairs. Parts is the same, dealers charge over MSRP (thankfully we have suncoast and others).
On the costs, it's not just the "sticker" hourly rate, it's that dealers charge a multiple of book time for repairs and service. How long does a 20k service take a tech and how much are you charged in labor? Tech can do it in X hours (or Porsche pays Y hours on the service plan) and you are charged way more. Twice book time is not uncommon for out of warranty repairs. Parts is the same, dealers charge over MSRP (thankfully we have suncoast and others).
01-07-2018, 05:50 PM
#129
Agree, however I have heard some folks on here saying they could not get any discount on a GTS which was not necessarily true with other models.
01-07-2018, 05:53 PM
#130
Platinum Dealership
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Originally Posted by evilfij
$1500 for the trans in my Chevy, $2k for my defenders, tore down a lotus trans with a friend and it was under $1000 in parts. No parts available for the PDK. Crazy. Hopefully it is different for the 6MT and 7MT.
On the costs, it's not just the "sticker" hourly rate, it's that dealers charge a multiple of book time for repairs and service. How long does a 20k service take a tech and how much are you charged in labor? Tech can do it in X hours (or Porsche pays Y hours on the service plan) and you are charged way more. Twice book time is not uncommon for out of warranty repairs. Parts is the same, dealers charge over MSRP (thankfully we have suncoast and others).
On the costs, it's not just the "sticker" hourly rate, it's that dealers charge a multiple of book time for repairs and service. How long does a 20k service take a tech and how much are you charged in labor? Tech can do it in X hours (or Porsche pays Y hours on the service plan) and you are charged way more. Twice book time is not uncommon for out of warranty repairs. Parts is the same, dealers charge over MSRP (thankfully we have suncoast and others).
01-07-2018, 06:48 PM
#131
RL Community Team
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Interesting thoughts CJ. The company I work for also sells a very expensive high end product and we preach the same mantra, based on the Nordstrom model. Excellence of customer service and delight in the product is more important than maximizing profit on each sale. Customers will return to the brand / stor / shop they trust and value, whether that value come from price, the way they are treated, the selection, or whatever the customer is looking for. Ours is a low volume / high dollar per unit business yet we know that volume of sales is the lifeblood of the brand in every way, and we will work to maximize the current and future prospects of sales. Most of all, we seek to build relationships to accomplish this and always have our eye on the long goal.
01-08-2018, 12:50 AM
#132
Burning Brakes
My sales guy was great. The Foreign cars Italia in Greensboro [Porsche Greensboro] where my car physically sat was great and I've interacted with them multiple times since for other things was fantastic.
Bob Pletcher who is the GM at Foreign cars Italia Charlotte; where the transaction was done, is a ***** and I'll never work with his dealership again. THEY made a mistake in the paperwork and Bob called me directly leaving some pretty hostile messages on my phone with some malicious threats - again, due to the paperwork mistake that his team made. Also - post sale there was a couple minor things that were supposed to be taken care of that weren't. FCI Charlotte said I needed to contact Porsche. FCI Greensboro found out about it and gave Porsche Charlotte and Blank check to make sure everything was addressed. Can't say enough good about the Greensboro crowd - in addition to their support of PCA.
Bob Pletcher who is the GM at Foreign cars Italia Charlotte; where the transaction was done, is a ***** and I'll never work with his dealership again. THEY made a mistake in the paperwork and Bob called me directly leaving some pretty hostile messages on my phone with some malicious threats - again, due to the paperwork mistake that his team made. Also - post sale there was a couple minor things that were supposed to be taken care of that weren't. FCI Charlotte said I needed to contact Porsche. FCI Greensboro found out about it and gave Porsche Charlotte and Blank check to make sure everything was addressed. Can't say enough good about the Greensboro crowd - in addition to their support of PCA.