track day spin out: two issues / questions
12-03-2017, 12:02 PM
#16
Pro
Thread Starter
You need more negative camber in the front. Jack up a front corner, remove the rubber caps, loosen the top shock mount bolts, push them inboard as much as possible (you can push the top of the tire or use a screwdriver/pry on the top), retighten. Repeat on the other side. Et voila, you’ve saved yourself $300 and prolonged the life of those tires.
12-03-2017, 12:04 PM
#17
Pro
Thread Starter
I experienced similar front tire wear on my C2s even with a mild Track alignment (-2 camber)and using MPSC2. Even with substantial wear on the fronts I found grip pretty good until I hit about 20 heat cycles.
With regards to the PDCC fault the only time I got that was when I put on Ferrari compound MPSC2’s. When I went back to the Porsche N compound I never had a problem.
With regards to the PDCC fault the only time I got that was when I put on Ferrari compound MPSC2’s. When I went back to the Porsche N compound I never had a problem.
12-03-2017, 12:11 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
But by all means go see someone for an alignment, they’ll look at it, not touch a thing, likely because they have no idea what they’re doing, and charge hundreds of dollars because it’s “within spec”. Spend the time to understand how alignments work and what is done to accomplish the revision while learning what your car/tire/driving style/track like with respect to your settings.
Btw you don’t “spin out” from understeer, which is what is happening because of lack of negative camber here. Your front pressures are also likely too high.
12-03-2017, 12:14 PM
#19
Burning Brakes
12-03-2017, 01:08 PM
#20
Pro
Thread Starter
Absolutely not true. A small reduction in camber will add slight toe out which given his likely current alignment will be negligible to nonexistent but at least in the right direction. All adjustable camber plates designed for street to track work on this premise. I’ve been doing this on track and racecars for 20+ years.
But by all means go see someone for an alignment, they’ll look at it, not touch a thing, likely because they have no idea what they’re doing, and charge hundreds of dollars because it’s “within spec”. Spend the time to understand how alignments work and what is done to accomplish the revision while learning what your car/tire/driving style/track like with respect to your settings.
Btw you don’t “spin out” from understeer, which is what is happening because of lack of negative camber here. Your front pressures are also likely too high.
But by all means go see someone for an alignment, they’ll look at it, not touch a thing, likely because they have no idea what they’re doing, and charge hundreds of dollars because it’s “within spec”. Spend the time to understand how alignments work and what is done to accomplish the revision while learning what your car/tire/driving style/track like with respect to your settings.
Btw you don’t “spin out” from understeer, which is what is happening because of lack of negative camber here. Your front pressures are also likely too high.
I definitely didn't "spin out" from understeer. I've been learning to trail brake corners lately and have been spinning out alot lately from holding on to my brakes too long.
12-03-2017, 02:08 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
If that’s the case, I’d try to find a shop asap, especially if you intend to continue to run SC2s. Otherwise you might as well throw cash out of your sunroof while going down the straights.
I feel a proper alignment, track pads and fluid are the bare minimum for safety if you intend to track your street car.
Good luck, it’s a lot of fun!
I feel a proper alignment, track pads and fluid are the bare minimum for safety if you intend to track your street car.
Good luck, it’s a lot of fun!
12-03-2017, 03:33 PM
#22
You're right, its the driving.
What you need right now more than anything is to focus on the basics. Learn to drive the line with precision. I'm talking inches not feet. Don't worry about speed. Precision is key to going fast, and if you can't do it slow how are you gonna do it fast? Hopefully your track is marked with cones for braking, turn-in, apex, and track-out. Practice by breaking the track down, learning to nail those cones one turn at a time, until you can string them all together into one perfect lap. Then, using the same section at a time method, gradually increase the pace until your tires are just beginning to squeal consistently all the way through each turn.
Only then will you be ready to safely focus on what will REALLY make you go fast, which is braking. My preferred method, when you are ready, is begin braking at the same place you are now. Only this time, concentrate entirely on braking. Forget cornering speed. Squeeze the brakes on and use them as hard and effectively as possible. Forget trail-braking. Forget turn-in. Only braking. Threshold braking. Hard as possible. Do this and be astonished how slow you are going, how much you can speed up for the turn. This is why the track should have braking cones. Make a mental note of where you are when this happens, how much further to the turn-in cone. Say it is 50 feet. Then next time do the same thing only start threshold braking 25 feet later. Same deal, section at a time.
Probably this sounds like a royal PITA. Since this approach has you driving a lot of the time nowhere near "fast" it might seem like a lot of wasted time. If so you are mistaken. All that "slow time" you should be thinking intently about how you are going to do that last section perfect the next time. Far more productive than going out there and just trying to go fast the whole time. More productive, and a lot less hard on your tires and brakes. Majorly safer than what you are doing now. And you WILL go a LOT faster this way.
At least, this will be true IF you have a good instructor sitting alongside giving feedback. Otherwise, anyone can tell you what I just did (Bondurant to Barber, it is all the same) but only the guy riding shotgun can help you figure out things like throttle steer. Especially on these cars that are so good at covering up your mistakes.
Use this as a guide. If you get an instructor who doesn't mention any of this stuff, move on. If they do, make like a sponge and soak it all up. Go faster. Save thousands.
What you need right now more than anything is to focus on the basics. Learn to drive the line with precision. I'm talking inches not feet. Don't worry about speed. Precision is key to going fast, and if you can't do it slow how are you gonna do it fast? Hopefully your track is marked with cones for braking, turn-in, apex, and track-out. Practice by breaking the track down, learning to nail those cones one turn at a time, until you can string them all together into one perfect lap. Then, using the same section at a time method, gradually increase the pace until your tires are just beginning to squeal consistently all the way through each turn.
Only then will you be ready to safely focus on what will REALLY make you go fast, which is braking. My preferred method, when you are ready, is begin braking at the same place you are now. Only this time, concentrate entirely on braking. Forget cornering speed. Squeeze the brakes on and use them as hard and effectively as possible. Forget trail-braking. Forget turn-in. Only braking. Threshold braking. Hard as possible. Do this and be astonished how slow you are going, how much you can speed up for the turn. This is why the track should have braking cones. Make a mental note of where you are when this happens, how much further to the turn-in cone. Say it is 50 feet. Then next time do the same thing only start threshold braking 25 feet later. Same deal, section at a time.
Probably this sounds like a royal PITA. Since this approach has you driving a lot of the time nowhere near "fast" it might seem like a lot of wasted time. If so you are mistaken. All that "slow time" you should be thinking intently about how you are going to do that last section perfect the next time. Far more productive than going out there and just trying to go fast the whole time. More productive, and a lot less hard on your tires and brakes. Majorly safer than what you are doing now. And you WILL go a LOT faster this way.
At least, this will be true IF you have a good instructor sitting alongside giving feedback. Otherwise, anyone can tell you what I just did (Bondurant to Barber, it is all the same) but only the guy riding shotgun can help you figure out things like throttle steer. Especially on these cars that are so good at covering up your mistakes.
Use this as a guide. If you get an instructor who doesn't mention any of this stuff, move on. If they do, make like a sponge and soak it all up. Go faster. Save thousands.
The following users liked this post:
EXFIB (09-18-2022)
12-03-2017, 03:51 PM
#23
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Chicagoland Area
Posts: 26,141
Likes: 0
Received 5,402 Likes
on
2,513 Posts
Originally Posted by chuck911
You're right, its the driving.
What you need right now more than anything is to focus on the basics. Learn to drive the line with precision. I'm talking inches not feet. Don't worry about speed. Precision is key to going fast, and if you can't do it slow how are you gonna do it fast? Hopefully your track is marked with cones for braking, turn-in, apex, and track-out. Practice by breaking the track down, learning to nail those cones one turn at a time, until you can string them all together into one perfect lap. Then, using the same section at a time method, gradually increase the pace until your tires are just beginning to squeal consistently all the way through each turn.
Only then will you be ready to safely focus on what will REALLY make you go fast, which is braking. My preferred method, when you are ready, is begin braking at the same place you are now. Only this time, concentrate entirely on braking. Forget cornering speed. Squeeze the brakes on and use them as hard and effectively as possible. Forget trail-braking. Forget turn-in. Only braking. Threshold braking. Hard as possible. Do this and be astonished how slow you are going, how much you can speed up for the turn. This is why the track should have braking cones. Make a mental note of where you are when this happens, how much further to the turn-in cone. Say it is 50 feet. Then next time do the same thing only start threshold braking 25 feet later. Same deal, section at a time.
Probably this sounds like a royal PITA. Since this approach has you driving a lot of the time nowhere near "fast" it might seem like a lot of wasted time. If so you are mistaken. All that "slow time" you should be thinking intently about how you are going to do that last section perfect the next time. Far more productive than going out there and just trying to go fast the whole time. More productive, and a lot less hard on your tires and brakes. Majorly safer than what you are doing now. And you WILL go a LOT faster this way.
At least, this will be true IF you have a good instructor sitting alongside giving feedback. Otherwise, anyone can tell you what I just did (Bondurant to Barber, it is all the same) but only the guy riding shotgun can help you figure out things like throttle steer. Especially on these cars that are so good at covering up your mistakes.
Use this as a guide. If you get an instructor who doesn't mention any of this stuff, move on. If they do, make like a sponge and soak it all up. Go faster. Save thousands.
What you need right now more than anything is to focus on the basics. Learn to drive the line with precision. I'm talking inches not feet. Don't worry about speed. Precision is key to going fast, and if you can't do it slow how are you gonna do it fast? Hopefully your track is marked with cones for braking, turn-in, apex, and track-out. Practice by breaking the track down, learning to nail those cones one turn at a time, until you can string them all together into one perfect lap. Then, using the same section at a time method, gradually increase the pace until your tires are just beginning to squeal consistently all the way through each turn.
Only then will you be ready to safely focus on what will REALLY make you go fast, which is braking. My preferred method, when you are ready, is begin braking at the same place you are now. Only this time, concentrate entirely on braking. Forget cornering speed. Squeeze the brakes on and use them as hard and effectively as possible. Forget trail-braking. Forget turn-in. Only braking. Threshold braking. Hard as possible. Do this and be astonished how slow you are going, how much you can speed up for the turn. This is why the track should have braking cones. Make a mental note of where you are when this happens, how much further to the turn-in cone. Say it is 50 feet. Then next time do the same thing only start threshold braking 25 feet later. Same deal, section at a time.
Probably this sounds like a royal PITA. Since this approach has you driving a lot of the time nowhere near "fast" it might seem like a lot of wasted time. If so you are mistaken. All that "slow time" you should be thinking intently about how you are going to do that last section perfect the next time. Far more productive than going out there and just trying to go fast the whole time. More productive, and a lot less hard on your tires and brakes. Majorly safer than what you are doing now. And you WILL go a LOT faster this way.
At least, this will be true IF you have a good instructor sitting alongside giving feedback. Otherwise, anyone can tell you what I just did (Bondurant to Barber, it is all the same) but only the guy riding shotgun can help you figure out things like throttle steer. Especially on these cars that are so good at covering up your mistakes.
Use this as a guide. If you get an instructor who doesn't mention any of this stuff, move on. If they do, make like a sponge and soak it all up. Go faster. Save thousands.
12-03-2017, 08:09 PM
#24
Race Director
please realize cars are not exactly built perfectly even and by pushing the coil over tops all the way in you will end up with more camber on one side than the other side of the car. You really need to put the car on an alignment rack to dial in the alignment you want. Plus toe will change and not evenly as well so that needs adjusting too and centering the steering wheel.
12-03-2017, 11:29 PM
#25
Pro
Thread Starter
If that’s the case, I’d try to find a shop asap, especially if you intend to continue to run SC2s. Otherwise you might as well throw cash out of your sunroof while going down the straights.
I feel a proper alignment, track pads and fluid are the bare minimum for safety if you intend to track your street car.
Good luck, it’s a lot of fun!
I feel a proper alignment, track pads and fluid are the bare minimum for safety if you intend to track your street car.
Good luck, it’s a lot of fun!
12-03-2017, 11:53 PM
#26
Pro
Thread Starter
You're right, its the driving.
What you need right now more than anything is to focus on the basics. Learn to drive the line with precision. I'm talking inches not feet. Don't worry about speed. Precision is key to going fast, and if you can't do it slow how are you gonna do it fast? Hopefully your track is marked with cones for braking, turn-in, apex, and track-out. Practice by breaking the track down, learning to nail those cones one turn at a time, until you can string them all together into one perfect lap. Then, using the same section at a time method, gradually increase the pace until your tires are just beginning to squeal consistently all the way through each turn.
Only then will you be ready to safely focus on what will REALLY make you go fast, which is braking. My preferred method, when you are ready, is begin braking at the same place you are now. Only this time, concentrate entirely on braking. Forget cornering speed. Squeeze the brakes on and use them as hard and effectively as possible. Forget trail-braking. Forget turn-in. Only braking. Threshold braking. Hard as possible. Do this and be astonished how slow you are going, how much you can speed up for the turn. This is why the track should have braking cones. Make a mental note of where you are when this happens, how much further to the turn-in cone. Say it is 50 feet. Then next time do the same thing only start threshold braking 25 feet later. Same deal, section at a time.
Probably this sounds like a royal PITA. Since this approach has you driving a lot of the time nowhere near "fast" it might seem like a lot of wasted time. If so you are mistaken. All that "slow time" you should be thinking intently about how you are going to do that last section perfect the next time. Far more productive than going out there and just trying to go fast the whole time. More productive, and a lot less hard on your tires and brakes. Majorly safer than what you are doing now. And you WILL go a LOT faster this way.
At least, this will be true IF you have a good instructor sitting alongside giving feedback. Otherwise, anyone can tell you what I just did (Bondurant to Barber, it is all the same) but only the guy riding shotgun can help you figure out things like throttle steer. Especially on these cars that are so good at covering up your mistakes.
Use this as a guide. If you get an instructor who doesn't mention any of this stuff, move on. If they do, make like a sponge and soak it all up. Go faster. Save thousands.
What you need right now more than anything is to focus on the basics. Learn to drive the line with precision. I'm talking inches not feet. Don't worry about speed. Precision is key to going fast, and if you can't do it slow how are you gonna do it fast? Hopefully your track is marked with cones for braking, turn-in, apex, and track-out. Practice by breaking the track down, learning to nail those cones one turn at a time, until you can string them all together into one perfect lap. Then, using the same section at a time method, gradually increase the pace until your tires are just beginning to squeal consistently all the way through each turn.
Only then will you be ready to safely focus on what will REALLY make you go fast, which is braking. My preferred method, when you are ready, is begin braking at the same place you are now. Only this time, concentrate entirely on braking. Forget cornering speed. Squeeze the brakes on and use them as hard and effectively as possible. Forget trail-braking. Forget turn-in. Only braking. Threshold braking. Hard as possible. Do this and be astonished how slow you are going, how much you can speed up for the turn. This is why the track should have braking cones. Make a mental note of where you are when this happens, how much further to the turn-in cone. Say it is 50 feet. Then next time do the same thing only start threshold braking 25 feet later. Same deal, section at a time.
Probably this sounds like a royal PITA. Since this approach has you driving a lot of the time nowhere near "fast" it might seem like a lot of wasted time. If so you are mistaken. All that "slow time" you should be thinking intently about how you are going to do that last section perfect the next time. Far more productive than going out there and just trying to go fast the whole time. More productive, and a lot less hard on your tires and brakes. Majorly safer than what you are doing now. And you WILL go a LOT faster this way.
At least, this will be true IF you have a good instructor sitting alongside giving feedback. Otherwise, anyone can tell you what I just did (Bondurant to Barber, it is all the same) but only the guy riding shotgun can help you figure out things like throttle steer. Especially on these cars that are so good at covering up your mistakes.
Use this as a guide. If you get an instructor who doesn't mention any of this stuff, move on. If they do, make like a sponge and soak it all up. Go faster. Save thousands.
12-04-2017, 02:22 PM
#27
On the other hand, I guess if you view it as general information based on the universal physics of driving, then you might be able to eke out some small benefit. So again I have only thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
Going even further out on a limb (not easy while keeping one eye on Lex and... his chainsaw?!) I notice your comment above that you have been spinning out a lot lately working on braking. That's a real red flag to me. Once in a great while, could be nothing. Second time in a season you begin to wonder. More than that, serious problem. What you really should do is step back to a basic driving skills course, one run with cones at speeds below about 80 mph. What resources do you have there in South Korea?
Full disclosure: again, no 991 track experience. My experience is limited to PCA Driver Ed, and Autocross, with my 1979 911SC, which after a few years developed into being a PCA Driver Ed, Autocross and Driver Skills Instructor, and driving every 911 made from 1965 up to the 2004 TT on track. Oh, and in-car instructing students in all those same cars, plus most others Porsche made during those years, plus a dozen or so others (Viper, Corvette, etc.). But, alas, no 991 experience. Sorry.
The following users liked this post:
EXFIB (09-18-2022)
12-04-2017, 06:45 PM
#28
Pro
Thread Starter
Thanks. Unfortunately, I have no idea what I'm talking about. As Lex thoughtfully reminds me, I do not own a 991, have never driven a 991 (on the track) and so how could I possibly ever have anything of any value to say on the subject?
On the other hand, I guess if you view it as general information based on the universal physics of driving, then you might be able to eke out some small benefit. So again I have only thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
Going even further out on a limb (not easy while keeping one eye on Lex and... his chainsaw?!) I notice your comment above that you have been spinning out a lot lately working on braking. That's a real red flag to me. Once in a great while, could be nothing. Second time in a season you begin to wonder. More than that, serious problem. What you really should do is step back to a basic driving skills course, one run with cones at speeds below about 80 mph. What resources do you have there in South Korea?
Full disclosure: again, no 991 track experience. My experience is limited to PCA Driver Ed, and Autocross, with my 1979 911SC, which after a few years developed into being a PCA Driver Ed, Autocross and Driver Skills Instructor, and driving every 911 made from 1965 up to the 2004 TT on track. Oh, and in-car instructing students in all those same cars, plus most others Porsche made during those years, plus a dozen or so others (Viper, Corvette, etc.). But, alas, no 991 experience. Sorry.
On the other hand, I guess if you view it as general information based on the universal physics of driving, then you might be able to eke out some small benefit. So again I have only thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
Going even further out on a limb (not easy while keeping one eye on Lex and... his chainsaw?!) I notice your comment above that you have been spinning out a lot lately working on braking. That's a real red flag to me. Once in a great while, could be nothing. Second time in a season you begin to wonder. More than that, serious problem. What you really should do is step back to a basic driving skills course, one run with cones at speeds below about 80 mph. What resources do you have there in South Korea?
Full disclosure: again, no 991 track experience. My experience is limited to PCA Driver Ed, and Autocross, with my 1979 911SC, which after a few years developed into being a PCA Driver Ed, Autocross and Driver Skills Instructor, and driving every 911 made from 1965 up to the 2004 TT on track. Oh, and in-car instructing students in all those same cars, plus most others Porsche made during those years, plus a dozen or so others (Viper, Corvette, etc.). But, alas, no 991 experience. Sorry.
Regarding my spinning out, I’ve been trying to hone my trail braking technique for the last two track days with my 991, so I have been going deeper and deeper into my braking and cornering to understand the limitations of my car. Clearly, it has cost me a good set of tires prematurely, but I find myself more than compensated in the knowledge and comfort I have gained on my car’s characteristics. It has been two of the most productive and insightful days out on the track for me so I stand very happy.
ive only been to one track in S Korea but from what I see and understand the tracks are clean and well maintained. However, we really lack eduacational support. There is Porsche racing school but they are done for the season. So I rely on watching a lot of YouTube videos of other drivers on this track and reading up and asking a lot on places like RL. So thanks. Your words and others here really are tremendous help and guide for me. 👍🏼😀
12-04-2017, 08:13 PM
#29
lol thanks chuck. One does not need a 991 to know good driving skills and I appreciate your comments greatly.
Regarding my spinning out, I’ve been trying to hone my trail braking technique for the last two track days with my 991, so I have been going deeper and deeper into my braking and cornering to understand the limitations of my car. Clearly, it has cost me a good set of tires prematurely, but I find myself more than compensated in the knowledge and comfort I have gained on my car’s characteristics. It has been two of the most productive and insightful days out on the track for me so I stand very happy.
ive only been to one track in S Korea but from what I see and understand the tracks are clean and well maintained. However, we really lack eduacational support. There is Porsche racing school but they are done for the season. So I rely on watching a lot of YouTube videos of other drivers on this track and reading up and asking a lot on places like RL. So thanks. Your words and others here really are tremendous help and guide for me. 👍🏼😀
Regarding my spinning out, I’ve been trying to hone my trail braking technique for the last two track days with my 991, so I have been going deeper and deeper into my braking and cornering to understand the limitations of my car. Clearly, it has cost me a good set of tires prematurely, but I find myself more than compensated in the knowledge and comfort I have gained on my car’s characteristics. It has been two of the most productive and insightful days out on the track for me so I stand very happy.
ive only been to one track in S Korea but from what I see and understand the tracks are clean and well maintained. However, we really lack eduacational support. There is Porsche racing school but they are done for the season. So I rely on watching a lot of YouTube videos of other drivers on this track and reading up and asking a lot on places like RL. So thanks. Your words and others here really are tremendous help and guide for me. 👍🏼😀
There are some YouTube videos that are pretty good. I was watching Driver61 just last night. But I still think the best is Going Faster by Skip Barber. Once you get past the cheesy humor intro and 1970's look and clunky underpowered open-wheel cars you may realize its just a beautifully organized and easily understandable driving video. The second half gets into racing technique, passing, etc. but the first half is pure road skills everyone can benefit from.
