991.1 Turbo /S vs. MP4-12C
12-27-2016, 09:21 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
991.1 Turbo /S vs. MP4-12C
Hi All,
My first Porsche was a 2006 997S Supercharged, which I recently sold on this forum. I sold it because I was going to purchase a dream JDM build, but I'm not sure if value exists in a 20 year old car with 600 rwhp, lol. Hence, I went out to drive a few "newer" cars this week, specifically a 2014 991 Turbo, and a 2012 MP4-12C.
After driving both cars, I'm absolutely stunned at the performance characteristics of these cars. Both are priced similarly, with the MP4-12C costing an inconsequential $20-$25k more. This will be a purely weekend car. My only concern is if the 991 Turbo will be enough of an occasion for this limited use. During my drive, the 991 felt faster and more abrupt. However, the McLaren certainly had me stunned with its low and wide stance.
Whichever car I get will receive a reflash, exhaust, and other basic supporting mods. I absolutely loved the P-Car community, so that's huge to me. I am considering the following issues, as I only have room for ONE sports car next to my daily:
i) depreciation going forward over a 1-2 year ownership term. seems to me that both are tremendous values at this point.
ii) potential maintenance problems
iii) re-saleability
iv) looks
v) performance
(not in this particular order). Does anyone here any thoughts with respect to these points? Thank you Renn-listers...
R
My first Porsche was a 2006 997S Supercharged, which I recently sold on this forum. I sold it because I was going to purchase a dream JDM build, but I'm not sure if value exists in a 20 year old car with 600 rwhp, lol. Hence, I went out to drive a few "newer" cars this week, specifically a 2014 991 Turbo, and a 2012 MP4-12C.
After driving both cars, I'm absolutely stunned at the performance characteristics of these cars. Both are priced similarly, with the MP4-12C costing an inconsequential $20-$25k more. This will be a purely weekend car. My only concern is if the 991 Turbo will be enough of an occasion for this limited use. During my drive, the 991 felt faster and more abrupt. However, the McLaren certainly had me stunned with its low and wide stance.
Whichever car I get will receive a reflash, exhaust, and other basic supporting mods. I absolutely loved the P-Car community, so that's huge to me. I am considering the following issues, as I only have room for ONE sports car next to my daily:
i) depreciation going forward over a 1-2 year ownership term. seems to me that both are tremendous values at this point.
ii) potential maintenance problems
iii) re-saleability
iv) looks
v) performance
(not in this particular order). Does anyone here any thoughts with respect to these points? Thank you Renn-listers...
R
12-28-2016, 12:25 AM
#2
Pro
I have driven a 2012 12C and a 2014 Turbo S:
-12C has better chassis balance and noticeably better ride than Turbo.
-Turbo is easier to get in and out of and more practical as a daily driver with normal doors, AWD and usable cup holders for example.
-I prefer the interior design and gauge cluster of the Turbo.
-Acceleration is terrific in both cars.
-Exhaust sound is lacking on both models.
-The dealer network dramatically favors Porsche and the Turbo is the more reliable of the two.
-2012 12C's had lots of issues because it was McLaren's first modern attempt at building a production car. Personally I would not buy one without a dealer nearby and at least a year of warranty remaining.
-12C dual clutch is very good, PDK is better still.
-Brakes were very good on both cars but have a different feel so check out for yourself.
-Depreciation is a little harder to figure because of the variables. If the new McLaren 570's start to fall it will put more downward pressure on 12C's. Also if 2017 Turbo S's fall to $160k in next year, would you still pay $160k for a 12C? When 12C warranties run out in the next year or two they are likely to drop more.
-Way more buyers out there for the Turbo than the 12C so a faster sale when you decide to change vehicles.
-I love McLaren's engineering so I have my eye on future models but feel the 12C was "not quite done" when they released it.
-12C has better chassis balance and noticeably better ride than Turbo.
-Turbo is easier to get in and out of and more practical as a daily driver with normal doors, AWD and usable cup holders for example.
-I prefer the interior design and gauge cluster of the Turbo.
-Acceleration is terrific in both cars.
-Exhaust sound is lacking on both models.
-The dealer network dramatically favors Porsche and the Turbo is the more reliable of the two.
-2012 12C's had lots of issues because it was McLaren's first modern attempt at building a production car. Personally I would not buy one without a dealer nearby and at least a year of warranty remaining.
-12C dual clutch is very good, PDK is better still.
-Brakes were very good on both cars but have a different feel so check out for yourself.
-Depreciation is a little harder to figure because of the variables. If the new McLaren 570's start to fall it will put more downward pressure on 12C's. Also if 2017 Turbo S's fall to $160k in next year, would you still pay $160k for a 12C? When 12C warranties run out in the next year or two they are likely to drop more.
-Way more buyers out there for the Turbo than the 12C so a faster sale when you decide to change vehicles.
-I love McLaren's engineering so I have my eye on future models but feel the 12C was "not quite done" when they released it.
12-28-2016, 12:53 AM
#3
Instructor
Thread Starter
John,
I appreciate your thoughtful response. I reside in Orange County, and there are numerous McLaren dealers nearby. My brain tells me that something could potentially come up, and as I understand, the extended warranty thru the dealer is ~ $4400/year.
That being said, I think the best point you made is with respect to resale. I think the MP4-12C will be a tougher pill to swallow in 2 years from a buyer's standpoint, especially given what the market may offer at a similar/lower price.
The 991 TT might be made more of an "occasion" once I do some performance mods and change the aero/wheels/tires to my liking. Decisions, decisions.
I appreciate your thoughtful response. I reside in Orange County, and there are numerous McLaren dealers nearby. My brain tells me that something could potentially come up, and as I understand, the extended warranty thru the dealer is ~ $4400/year.
That being said, I think the best point you made is with respect to resale. I think the MP4-12C will be a tougher pill to swallow in 2 years from a buyer's standpoint, especially given what the market may offer at a similar/lower price.
The 991 TT might be made more of an "occasion" once I do some performance mods and change the aero/wheels/tires to my liking. Decisions, decisions.
12-28-2016, 11:34 AM
#6
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Gone. On the Open Road
Posts: 16,340
Received 1,550 Likes
on
1,012 Posts
... McLaren didn't employ anyone that did a failure mode analysis after McLaren's _race_ engineers designed that system without seperate circuits.
This is the kind of "design accumen" one should expect when purchasing cars that are produced in numbers on the order of hundreds per year.
12-28-2016, 01:38 PM
#7
Instructor
Thread Starter
^wow, that's a pretty serious engineering oversight. I understand that the 650s is a substantially better car, but I was trying to maximize the value proposition of these used MP4's. In two years though, the platform might begin to really show its age. The veracity and finesse of the 991 Turbo is definitely in the lead for now.
I also like the fact that it's a bit understated ... kinda strange because I always expected my "exotic" to turn a lot of heads. Still conducting my search...
I also like the fact that it's a bit understated ... kinda strange because I always expected my "exotic" to turn a lot of heads. Still conducting my search...
Trending Topics
12-28-2016, 03:16 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
I had a '14 991TT w/ GIAC/Fabspeed for a year and a half, followed by a '14 12C Spider w/ Fabspeed.
Mac is more of an event, I put 4k miles on it in a year, the TT I had almost 22k miles on, it was my DD 80% of the time. For a weekend car, no doubt go Mac (or F or L car), the TT is phenomenal but too comfy to be an event type weekend car.
Mac is more of an event, I put 4k miles on it in a year, the TT I had almost 22k miles on, it was my DD 80% of the time. For a weekend car, no doubt go Mac (or F or L car), the TT is phenomenal but too comfy to be an event type weekend car.
12-30-2016, 03:54 AM
#10
rvmhn - i was searching for a 12c through out this year but ended up with a new 991.1 TTS. Coming from a R8 V10, i thought the 12c was quite an upgrade from it in terms of styling, driving experience, acceleration. i actually was very close to finalizing a deal on a black '12 model until the dealer told me it was repainted. i searched for a 12c at least twice a day for 8 months straight, until i found a brand new 991.1 TTS at $40k below msrp.
being my first porsche, the speed is insane, interior is so much more refined compare to the R8 and 12C, the exterior styling is classic - my first look in detail and test drive pretty much sold the car to me. I do not have to worry about warranty or maintenance issue, and i trust the engineering behind porsche. As menteioned by Ajag above, the car is just easy and fun to drive, and i like it just for my weekend drive.
as far as turning heads, my previous GTR and R8 got more attention than the porsche for sure, and i'm sure the 12c will get the same. but if you can get the right color exterior + interior, with center lock wheels, and ceramic brakes, etc., it will definitely turn heads.
i occasionally still search around for a 12c, but i have not not found one that convinced me to trade the porsche for.
Alan
being my first porsche, the speed is insane, interior is so much more refined compare to the R8 and 12C, the exterior styling is classic - my first look in detail and test drive pretty much sold the car to me. I do not have to worry about warranty or maintenance issue, and i trust the engineering behind porsche. As menteioned by Ajag above, the car is just easy and fun to drive, and i like it just for my weekend drive.
as far as turning heads, my previous GTR and R8 got more attention than the porsche for sure, and i'm sure the 12c will get the same. but if you can get the right color exterior + interior, with center lock wheels, and ceramic brakes, etc., it will definitely turn heads.
i occasionally still search around for a 12c, but i have not not found one that convinced me to trade the porsche for.
Alan
12-31-2016, 10:03 AM
#11
Intermediate
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: NY
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I owned a 650s, for a total of 8 months, the two best days of ownership were the day it was delivered and the day it was traded in for a GT3.
I bought the car in January of 16 and stored it until April 16. The car was purchased with 1K miles. The first week I owned it, while opening the passenger door the window failed to retract and broke. McLaren could not repeat problem and would not cover under warranty. Car was in shop for two weeks while waiting for part. Total cost $2,500.
Car developed a leak in Hydraulic system, car was in shop three weeks, this was covered under warranty, but would have cost about $6,000.
Breaks constantly made noise, in out of shop twice. Covered under warranty, lost drive time about a week.
The dealers I dealt with were extremely professional, unfortunately parts are not readily accessible.
Aside from the above the car handled and drove extremely well and got a lot of attention. These cars are very temperamental, and the ownership experience is very different then Porsche.
I bought the car in January of 16 and stored it until April 16. The car was purchased with 1K miles. The first week I owned it, while opening the passenger door the window failed to retract and broke. McLaren could not repeat problem and would not cover under warranty. Car was in shop for two weeks while waiting for part. Total cost $2,500.
Car developed a leak in Hydraulic system, car was in shop three weeks, this was covered under warranty, but would have cost about $6,000.
Breaks constantly made noise, in out of shop twice. Covered under warranty, lost drive time about a week.
The dealers I dealt with were extremely professional, unfortunately parts are not readily accessible.
Aside from the above the car handled and drove extremely well and got a lot of attention. These cars are very temperamental, and the ownership experience is very different then Porsche.
01-01-2017, 08:16 AM
#12
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by pasd18
I owned a 650s, for a total of 8 months, the two best days of ownership were the day it was delivered and the day it was traded in for a GT3.
I bought the car in January of 16 and stored it until April 16. The car was purchased with 1K miles. The first week I owned it, while opening the passenger door the window failed to retract and broke. McLaren could not repeat problem and would not cover under warranty. Car was in shop for two weeks while waiting for part. Total cost $2,500.
Car developed a leak in Hydraulic system, car was in shop three weeks, this was covered under warranty, but would have cost about $6,000.
Breaks constantly made noise, in out of shop twice. Covered under warranty, lost drive time about a week.
The dealers I dealt with were extremely professional, unfortunately parts are not readily accessible.
Aside from the above the car handled and drove extremely well and got a lot of attention. These cars are very temperamental, and the ownership experience is very different then Porsche.
I bought the car in January of 16 and stored it until April 16. The car was purchased with 1K miles. The first week I owned it, while opening the passenger door the window failed to retract and broke. McLaren could not repeat problem and would not cover under warranty. Car was in shop for two weeks while waiting for part. Total cost $2,500.
Car developed a leak in Hydraulic system, car was in shop three weeks, this was covered under warranty, but would have cost about $6,000.
Breaks constantly made noise, in out of shop twice. Covered under warranty, lost drive time about a week.
The dealers I dealt with were extremely professional, unfortunately parts are not readily accessible.
Aside from the above the car handled and drove extremely well and got a lot of attention. These cars are very temperamental, and the ownership experience is very different then Porsche.
01-01-2017, 01:21 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
+1. A car with the technology and specs of the McLaren would of course not have existed several decades ago, but in terms of serviceability and reliability, this is a throwback to the era of Italian and British sports cars that would be in the shop more than in your garage or on the road. A friend has a new 570s that has stranded him a few times already, spending almost as many miles on a flatbed as on the road. He also has a Ferrari 360, which by comparison, has been Japan car-like reliable.
Last edited by Need4S; 01-01-2017 at 01:38 PM.
01-08-2017, 11:00 AM
#14
Reliability factors outlined well already -- I've heard nothing but frightening things, but there are anecdotal reports of uber-reliable Macs. In the final analysis, the MP4 is not only a low volume, boutique exotic -- it was their first try (F1 notwithstanding). The Porsche has decades of legacy engineering and as a halo car of VW AG - it is a car that simply must work. Two completely different types of cars and your expectations of reliability should be consistent.
That said - the MP4 doesn't really move me, in person. It's more of an event than a vanilla Turbo/S, but do we buy these cars to get that kind of attention? I personally don't seek it. That said, I have a small family and I need that back seat, so the conversation begins and ends with the 911. Even without that requirement, I'd probably shy away from an exotic car - I like having some daily driver usability.
Personally, if I was looking for an exotic and had a local Mac dealer, I'd be looking at a low miles 570s with existing warranty and be mentally prepared for headaches.
That said - the MP4 doesn't really move me, in person. It's more of an event than a vanilla Turbo/S, but do we buy these cars to get that kind of attention? I personally don't seek it. That said, I have a small family and I need that back seat, so the conversation begins and ends with the 911. Even without that requirement, I'd probably shy away from an exotic car - I like having some daily driver usability.
Personally, if I was looking for an exotic and had a local Mac dealer, I'd be looking at a low miles 570s with existing warranty and be mentally prepared for headaches.
01-08-2017, 12:54 PM
#15
Rocky Mountain High
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I entertained the idea of buying a used McLaren before I bought my 991 TTS. The closest McLaren dealership is in Scottsdale, AZ. It's a little over 800 miles from my house. Given the reliability issues that are common with the brand, I didn't consider a McLaren for very long. I'm very happy with the TTS.