SupremePower

YGM! Thank you!

medici78

So you can confirm the 20x9.5 Center Lock will clear with no issues on a lowered (Techart Springs) 991.2TTS? Also, I am surprised their Turbo Centerlock fitment is 20x11.5 when the factory wheels are 20x12.

SupremePower

20 x 9.5 will clear

They have a 20 x 11.5 wheel for the Turbos available also! We can get you into the 9 and 11.5

Tfk

Has BBS confirmed that the 11.5x20et54 is indeed turbo s specific as far as they are concerned? Or is the 11.5x20et54 wheel recommended/intended by BBS for the less wide Carrera 4?

I know that both, the 11.5x20et54, and the 12x20et44 will bolt onto the turbo(s) rear axle.
But are either wheel actually intended for the turbo(s) by BBS?

I have been wanting to order a set of FI-R's for my car for a long time but neither of their fronts or rears seem to sit right on a turbo, and I have never gotten a clear answer regarding the sizes.

The 5 bolt FI-R's (et46 and et48) sit perfectly on the turbo. The CL FI-R options do not; either -1mm front (9x20et52) and +2mm rear (11.5x20et54), or +7mm front (9.5x20et50) and +18mm rear (12x20et44).
Neither CL wheel seems right for the turbo.

Please confirm.

mwlmd

I just read through this entire thread and came to the conclusion that if i was spending this much on wheels for my 911 I would get custom offsets from HRE in their R101 wheel to achieve exactly the best fitment for a TTS. Why guess with BBS? (nice rhyme!)

tonosity

WheelsB

Tfk

Appreciate your input but I must ask.. when you say "HRE to achieve exactly the best fitment for a TTS..."
you mean Best Fitment according to who and what?
Does Porsche recommend this Fitment?
If not, do you mean that HRE has the best fitment in terms of aesthetics; how well the wheels fill the arches? At the expense of what geometry/handling penalties?

As far as Porsche are concerned, BBS tick enough boxes to make OEM 991tts centerlocks for them.
That is enough for Me to trust BBS enough to bolt on a set of their FI-R's onto my car; just as long as I can buy whatever sizes/offsets BBS actually Recommend for our cars.

Looking at the available offerings, it very well may be that BBS only actually offer FI-R's for the gt3/carrera 4, but not the turbo(s) with center locks. That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of.


Agreed; BBS is indeed very particular. Porsche is even more particular. It's what makes a Porsche the automobile that it is. And that's all the more reason to bolt on BBS wheels to a Porsche.
You're right, 12x20et44 FI-R will fit on the turbo(s) even though BBS recommends it for the gt3.

Question is, what - if any - does BBS recommend for the turbo(s) with center locks?

I Can order the HRE R101LW in custom offsets but:
1. There's Rolex, and there's Cartier.
2. "Custom offsets" determined by who? Which serve what advantages? And at the cost of which disadvantages?
3. "more lightweight than the FI-R's," I think not. Either the R101LW fronts or rears are lighter, but not both fronts and rears.
4. "100 finishes" are 99 too many. Whichever wheel, has got to be satin/matte black for me.
5. When are the P101sc's out? Those might be worth considering..

HRE_Jurrian

Custom offsets are determined by the same sort of engineers that BBS has at their facility (albeit our German isn't as good as theirs). Our CEO is an engineer coming from the Aerospace industry, and that trickles down to the other engineers we have here who have been designing wheels and doing FEA analysis for decades. The best thing about custom offsets though are two things; first, if you want a particular set of offsets for an exact look, we can make that happen for you with most of our wheel styles (R101LW does not apply, we lock in the fitment to be the lightest as possible by limiting the pad height). Secondly if you like a certain set of offsets from another manufacturer like BBS, we can just copy and paste the same fitment. We won't get upset about that, we know BBS makes a great product and if you happen to like their fitment better for one reason or another, we won't frown at that, we'll be happy to accommodate!

To compare and contrast the weight figures you want me to touch on, I've taken a post by Supreme Power:


HRE's 991 Turbo R101 Lightweight CENTERLOCK specs - Also listed here - https://www.hrewheels.com/files/R101_LW_Specs_2018.pdf
20x9 ET44 - 17.20lbs (0.2lbs lighter per wheel)
20x12 ET45 - 20.30lbs (0.2lbs lighter per wheel if comparing centerlock versions which I am)

So there you have it, HRE is lighter front/rear compared to Supreme Power's specs they had on the BBS FI-R. Not by a huge margin by any means, it's a wash if you ask me, but HRE is still technically lighter, despite you thinking otherwise. If you were to compare BBS 5-lug versus our Centerlock, sure, but for comparison sake I would say it's better to compare centerlock to centerlock.

Just an option to consider though, not everybody is going to love these wheels over BBS but it's certainly just another option to consider. I just had an email today from a someone who said he wanted to buy BBS Mag Wheels, but he hated all three colors they're offered in and wanted a machined look to his wheel, which we certainly offer. R101 Lightweights for his 991 GT3 are only 3.1lbs heavier in TOTAL, not per wheel in TOTAL, compared to the BBS MAG wheels, so I don't think he's going to spend the extra $9,700 or whatever it worked out to be to get the BBS wheels. We're here as an option to consider, not everybody thinks the exact same way with their Porsche, many people want many colors!

mwlmd

Very good points and good question. I think as auto enthusiasts we all have our own reasons for modifying our cars (or not). If everyone believed that OEM and stock configuration was the "best" then there would be no aftermarket in existence. The fact is that most car manufacturers including Porsche must use somewhat conservative specs for mass market cars. Does lowering a car 1" or pushing the wheel offest out 10mm to give a more aggressive stance lower nurburgring lap times? I don't know but I am guessing the change is negligible for 99.9% of drivers. What is clear is the aesthetic benefits. Now clearly beauty is in the eye of the beholder. However, if one would like their CL wheels to be pushed out a bit for a slightly more aggressive stance (again I don't buy in to the fact that this compromises "Porsche handling dynamics") then the only option is to buy custom wheels with the offests that accomplish the goal. You cannot as far as I know put spacers on CL wheels.

To further this argument, I believe that Porsche offers wheels spacers as a factory option on the 911. Now if changing the offset (by adding weight no less) compromises the Porsche engineering then surely they would not offer this.

BBS makes lots of wheels for lots of car makers. They are not a bespoke performance wheel maker. I would guess that Porsche uses them in part because they are a German supplier, not necesarily because they are "better."

Anyway, custom wheel offsets to achieve whatever aesthetic look one desires are a nice option to have. And again I don't buy that it decreases performance. The only thing aggressive offets increase are rock chips along the side of the car!

I had HRE P101s on my previous F10 M5 and they were fantastic. I currently have OEM Porsche TTS wheels on my car and love them and have no desire for aftermarket wheels. I think they are a perfect design for this car.

Matt

Tfk

Jurrian,
First of all, I appreciate you taking the time, thank you.

Regarding HRE offsets being "determined by the same sort of engineers that BBS has at their facility" implies that the engineers are similar; not The Same. That, in my book, works against your price tags compared to theirs.
Even if the engineers are similar - and I don't doubt that - doesn't mean that the end result in terms of offsets (or reasoning behind selecting those offsets -- "an exact look" for example) are similar.
Aggressive offsets do make wheels look prettier. And those wheels, do make a car look prettier. And aesthetics, are indeed a factor which I won't deny.
What worries me is the geometry/handling/performance penalties and or problems which those prettier/custom offsets bring with them. I'm not sure what those problems are.

The 991 GT2RS wheel offsets (and sizes) differ from the 991TTS despite both cars sharing the same body.
With Porsche and Porsche Motorsport, I don't question such changes. One's rear wheel drive, the other is all wheel drive. One's track focused, the other's a Swiss army knife of sort. Justified.

With BBS, I don't feel a need to question either. And that's probably because I know they're good enough for Porsche, and they're particular enough not to deviate too far and end up upsetting the car or what Porsche designed into it. That goes a long way. All I want, is to know exactly which wheels/sizes/offsets BBS actually "recommend" for the 991tts with center locks. The trouble Im having is that the BBS website previously recommended 9/12x20, and now it has changed to 9/11.5x20. Leads me to think that the website is not accurate.

Regarding the R101LW... As I said earlier, aesthetics Do Matter. But the overall wheel design matters much more to me than custom/aggressive offset.
I'm sure its a great wheel and I stand corrected about its weight compared to the FI-R, thank you, but.. I'm really not fond of its design.
I'd go as far as to say that I actually prefer the P101 over the R101LW design wise. But then, no offense - this is subjective - the P101 is a tad overplayed and starting to show its age IMO. Which is why I asked about when the P101SC (or whatever the updated design is going to be called) is coming out. Never got an answer.

Interesting you mentioned the R101LW offsets are fixed. That might actually be the first appealing thing I've read about HRE/R101LW. But fixed to which offsets exactly? What's the intention/justification behind those offsets? How do those offsets compare to stock? Other than the look.. What benefits do they serve? What are the drawbacks?
I understand you not allowing people/customers to mess with R101LW offset/weight. But how then are you making them in 9/12x20 instead of 991tts oem wheel sizes 9/11.5x20? That's stock front width but half an inch wider than stock in the rear. How does that come into play? Tires (original sizes) stretched differently on front/rear wheels? More rear grip? More understeer as a result?

Pardon me. I know I've asked many questions. But right from the start, I stated I'm interested in the correct set of BBS FI-R's for my car. I'm just confused about which sizes/offsets - if any - are recommended for my car by BBS.
Like you said, HRE is an option. And I respect that. And I'm willing to consider HRE as an alternative if/when All my questions are answered.
Not willing to blindly jump into a set of wheels that aren't forged by BBS just because "HRE has been around longer than most" or because "HRE speaks for itself" or because "most people buy HRE."

Cheers



You make very good points yourself sir.
And you're right, we all have our own reasons to modify our cars in the very different ways we modify them (or not).
I don't believe the OEM/stock configuration is the "best." The GT2/3 is art in stock form. The turbo leaves a lot on the table and greatly benefits from the aftermarket as far as I'm concerned. The AM definitely has its place with turbos.

Porsche are conservative with mass market cars and that is very evident when you look closely at their motorsport cars and the changes the make to those motorsport cars.
Perhaps, I'm trying to make similar studied Motorsport "changes" to my car and that's why BBS is all the more appealing as opposed to brands who primarily cater to "an exact look."

In my experience, lowering and/or pushing out wheel offsets has always made a noticeable change to the way a given car drives; not necessarily for the better. Which is why I'm reluctant to venture into 'designer' wheels.

If I could equally push out all four center lock wheels 5mm compared to stock (like the 5 bolt factory 5mm spacer you mentioned), maybe I'd go that route. Granted, I have no idea how that'd look on the car, and granted, 'the look' IS a not-entirely-negligible factor too. But yes, something like that, would make the decision easier.

In the case of most Designer offerings, the suggested offsets are usually either a "secret," or, they're tremendously different from stock. Maybe that's okay? Maybe that's too much? Maybe that "compromises Porsche handling dynamics?"
Spending 10-15 thousand dollars on wheels, only to be almost completely in the dark with all these questions, makes no sense to me Matt..

HRE_Jurrian

For the R101 Lightweight the goal was to make an incredibly lightweight wheel, while staying within our tolerances. Every vehicle model has a different load rating and power output, so we've utilized this data to redesign the original R101 design making it vehicle/model specific. We fine tune each detail to remove weight in all the right places, and add stiffness where needed. This is the most fine tuning we've ever done on a wheel, therefore we only do it for select models. In order to do so we cannot have customers picking the offsets because what we're doing is designing the wheel around one set size and offset to maximize the weight loss. Offset changes typically change the pad height, which will change the weight of the wheel. We want to fix that offset specific to one size to limit how much pad height we have on the wheel so we can limit the weight. Lightweight wheels serve an incredible benefit, as you'll notice most race teams strive to have lightweight wheels to increase performance.

We increase the width of the rear wheels by half an inch but the tire size remains the same therefore no under-steer there, this was done to limit pad height with the 12" while having a more flush fitment. Using a 11.5" we would have had to add more pad height, which would actually have resulted in a heavier wheel, therefore we went with a 12" which is traditionally what everyone else does (Forgeline was mentioned at doing the same thing too).

I would actually recommend you check out the video below where we have Alan our President talk about what makes HRE wheels different from the rest, as well as answering some of those questions you ask in terms of the benefits:

You Tube

I wouldn't want you to blindly jump into a set of wheels either! I'm happy having a conversation with you to determine if we're the right wheel for you!

Need4S

I'm not sure I'm understanding the debate over HRE "engineering" when it comes to the offset specs. Offset specs are simply a matter of measurement, aren't they? If you want the same diameter and width wheel, with the same offsets as OEM, isn't this just a matter of measuring the OEMs and transferring the specs to the custom HREs so they provide the same track width and clearances?

Now materials and manufacturing methods, those are important, but I see no differences of any significance between HRE 101Ls and F1-Rs. They're both high quality and very light. So it's a matter of budget and preference (and ability to custom color the HREs), right?

FWIW, I think I already posted to this thread that I'm happy with my F1-Rs in 5 bolt. The offsets push them very slightly outwards but aesthetically, they look fine, and the handling, even in track driving, is fine - no real discernible difference in handling balance. In theory it may push/understeer a bit more, but to the extent anyone can even feel that, that's easily compensated by tire pressures and technique.

Tfk

I never meant to debate HRE's - or anyone else's - engineering. No doubt HRE make well engineered wheels.
I want BBS FI-Rs. Time and time again, people pop up suggesting HREs. And every time I find myself willing to consider, I have questions, and somehow, those questions are almost always ignored or left unanswered. In my earlier post, I specifically asked why the HRE R101LW "for 991tts" come in 9x20 and 12x20, as opposed to 9x20 and 11.5x20 like stock... no answer. I asked which offsets and why? no answer.
Sorry, but that's a little too vague.

...Stock width in the front, and half an inch wider in the rear. Those are GT3 wheel widths. Not turbo wheel widths. That seems to me like they're offering one wheel set for both the turbo and the GT3. Maybe they're not cutting corners. Maybe they have a valid reason behind their sizing/offsets. I am not an engineer but I know for a fact - from past experiences - that such a change would impact certain aspects. One thing that comes to mind is that the tire stretch will vary front to rear. Maybe most find that negligible, I don't. And more than that, I am sure such a change will impact the way my car would behave at the limit. And that to me, is important.

For many reasons, the BBS FI-Rs appeal to me more than HREs or any other wheel.
All I was/am trying to find out is which are the correct FI-Rs for my car.
With a 5 bolt turbo like yours, the offering from BBS is very simple, straightforward and perfect. I love the 5 bolts FI-Rs on your car btw. The 5 bolt FI-Rs sit about 2-3mm further out all around compared to OEM turbo wheels; just like their FI-Rs for the GT3 do too.
However, for the turbo(s) with center lock, the FI-Rs are confusing; they sit 1mm in the front, and 2mm out in the rear.

You're right about compensating with tire pressures. But I'm not sure Im comfortable spending ~$10,000 on a set of wheels only to have to 'compensate' with tire pressures or to go down any trial and error road to get them to work properly.

Cargt63