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Tracking the Turbo

Old 07-02-2016, 12:31 AM
  #16  
kyrocks
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I have owned both and the GT3 is faster on track.
I would consider taking lessons instead of buying another car.
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Old 07-02-2016, 12:39 AM
  #17  
soulsea
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Originally Posted by kyrocks View Post
I have owned both and the GT3 is faster on track.
I would consider taking lessons instead of buying another car.
Classic RL.
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Old 07-02-2016, 01:07 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by KBS911 View Post
So what are the numbers for the standard 991.2 Turbo? Big improvement on the 2-S times over 991.1, and would assume a similar increase on the 991.2-non-S, albeit a bit below the S. Is the suspension of the S/non S the same? From what I can determine so far it seems that the only difference between S/non S is larger ceramic brakes and larger turbos that account for the 40+ hp. Easy to get reliable 40hp with quality aftermarket tune.
991.2 turbo should be a bit faster than 991.1 turbo due to better tires, slight suspension changes. Comparing the 991.2 turbo versus turbo S, I believe only the S has the upgraded turbos, cylinder heads, fuel injection pressure increase (20%).
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Old 07-02-2016, 01:30 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by soulsea View Post
Classic RL.
No doubt improving the loose nut behind the wheel is always needed. I've been on that track journey for 39 years.
However, I don't believe the two actions are mutually exclusive.
Appreciate the detailed insights of what was done to make your turbo more track focused.
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:22 AM
  #20  
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I track my 991.1 Turbo locally; it's totally stock. I have also driven the 991.1 Turbo S and the 991 GT3 back to back on the same track (Barber Motorsports Park) in open lapping. [I got some GT4 seat time during that same visit too but that's a different thread maybe ] Keep in mind that I too am intermediate although knocking on the door of the PCA advanced group now. That said...

There's no question that the Turbo fires out of the corner better than the GT3...the power advantage is super obvious when I get to the throttle nice and early and the exit works out well. On the way into the corners though the extra weight of the Turbo is also very obvious: definitely had to back up the braking point references relative to the GT3. Mid corner the GT3 is like a scalpel compared to the Turbo being more of a utility knife -- still sharp but not as delicate and precise...the GT3 was really easier to steer with my feet, more intuitive perhaps.

One place of special note around the Barber track -- coming out of T3 and back up the hill WOT to T4 the Turbo has enough power to pick up enough speed that it really gets light over the crest which was a little disconcerting. By contrast WOT in the GT3 through the same section the car felt planted all the way.

Oh and a note about understeer... I have a data logger in my car and I've found that you can see Porsche Torque Vectoring put just a little brake into the inside rear corner caliper in some turns. Looking at yaw rate, this is happening as understeer sets in -- seems to happen for me mid corner occasionally. In other words it looks like PTV is countering some understeer situations for me. Well, enough that I only notice and react to understeer now and then on corner entries that I mess up -- as someone noted above trailing the brake into the corner helps keep the front end loaded and avoids most of it I think.
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Old 07-02-2016, 10:26 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by boxer-11 View Post
I track my 991.1 Turbo locally; it's totally stock. I have also driven the 991.1 Turbo S and the 991 GT3 back to back on the same track (Barber Motorsports Park) in open lapping. [I got some GT4 seat time during that same visit too but that's a different thread maybe ] Keep in mind that I too am intermediate although knocking on the door of the PCA advanced group now. That said...

There's no question that the Turbo fires out of the corner better than the GT3...the power advantage is super obvious when I get to the throttle nice and early and the exit works out well. On the way into the corners though the extra weight of the Turbo is also very obvious: definitely had to back up the braking point references relative to the GT3. Mid corner the GT3 is like a scalpel compared to the Turbo being more of a utility knife -- still sharp but not as delicate and precise...the GT3 was really easier to steer with my feet, more intuitive perhaps.

One place of special note around the Barber track -- coming out of T3 and back up the hill WOT to T4 the Turbo has enough power to pick up enough speed that it really gets light over the crest which was a little disconcerting. By contrast WOT in the GT3 through the same section the car felt planted all the way.

Oh and a note about understeer... I have a data logger in my car and I've found that you can see Porsche Torque Vectoring put just a little brake into the inside rear corner caliper in some turns. Looking at yaw rate, this is happening as understeer sets in -- seems to happen for me mid corner occasionally. In other words it looks like PTV is countering some understeer situations for me. Well, enough that I only notice and react to understeer now and then on corner entries that I mess up -- as someone noted above trailing the brake into the corner helps keep the front end loaded and avoids most of it I think.
Hope this perspective helps the OP: Tracked my '15 991 TTS in the'14 and '15 seasons PDE's bone stock then did the PSDS masters program at Barber MSP in Nov. '15. Still very much an intermediate driver, despite a few lucky corners at BMSP and a couple of others. When I drove the TTS and GT3 back to back, my clear preference was the GT3, so decided to get in line for the next GT3 and sold my TTS. Got to say that I like the NA sound, especially at legal speeds in my PGTS so while the TTS blows everything away in speed, the sound did not quite do it for me after about 12k miles with mine. The TTS is a very different cornering experience due to weight and AWD. Yes, exits are explosive as are straights, but overall the GT3 is more confidence inspiring for my level driver, IMO. FWIW, the instructors I spoke with at the PSDS prefer the TTS and they definitely wring a lot out of it in hot paps. I do not doubt that the 991.2 TTS is better dynamically than the 991 version, which with the Techart lowering springs and SC2 tires will give all but the very best drivers of GT3's fits on the track. The TTS is perhaps the best car available for all round purposes: a beast on the track and a joy for touring. It does everything well without drama. Maybe I should have added a Europipe for better sound, but wanted to keep it stock. Did not add the Techart springs because the 'TTS 15's do not have front axle lift.
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Old 07-02-2016, 12:55 PM
  #22  
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I've been on many a spirited backroads drive and found my 991.1 TT very good, with predictable handling and being great at putting power down on exiting turns.

On the track, however, with the stock P-Zero tires, I found it difficult to keep the handling consistent. The tires seem to heat unevenly but instead of transitioning to even more understeer as that would occur, the rear was getting more and more loose at the end of sessions compared to the beginnings - almost to the point that it was getting scary and difficult to keep up with other cars of similar performance. I played around with tire pressures throughout the day but never could seem to get that dialed in. I'd be interested in hearing what pressures others use. Also, my car does not have PDCC. Others who have had great track experiences with their cars, do your cars have PDCC?

A friend with a 991.1 TTS suggested switching to SC2s, as he found similar issues with the stock P-Zeros on his car, but I use my car year round as a DD, so I'm reluctant to go that route given the poor wet and cold weather performance of SC2s. I think my next tires will be Pilot Super Sports and will see if they make any difference.

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Old 07-02-2016, 06:32 PM
  #23  
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Michelin Super Sports definitely outperform the PZero's on my otherwise-stock TT when it comes to the track. I really like them. Only reason I have PZero's again right now is that the MPSS tires were completely out of stock when I needed new rubber.

I agree with Andrew, btw, comparing the TTS and GT3 back to back on the track I think the visceral noise and extra cornering grip made the GT3 the track car of choice from the two. It's more dramatic, more exciting by some small margin at least. I put myself on the GT car list locally here but as a new member of the Porsche family with a relationship with only a small dealer who seems to get few of these cars...well let's just say no joy so far and probably shouldn't be holding my breath...have the cash, just can't get an allocation.

All that said, I want to keep the TT; it's the best DD I have ever had. It is equally true that the TT does everything well, including the track, running around in the [light] snow, long distance cruising, puttering around town and so forth. I think the GT3, especially with LWB, might be a little less accomplished for DD things by comparison.
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Old 07-02-2016, 10:00 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Need4S View Post
I've been on many a spirited backroads drive and found my 991.1 TT very good, with predictable handling and being great at putting power down on exiting turns.

On the track, however, with the stock P-Zero tires, I found it difficult to keep the handling consistent. The tires seem to heat unevenly but instead of transitioning to even more understeer as that would occur, the rear was getting more and more loose at the end of sessions compared to the beginnings - almost to the point that it was getting scary and difficult to keep up with other cars of similar performance. I played around with tire pressures throughout the day but never could seem to get that dialed in. I'd be interested in hearing what pressures others use. Also, my car does not have PDCC. Others who have had great track experiences with their cars, do your cars have PDCC?

A friend with a 991.1 TTS suggested switching to SC2s, as he found similar issues with the stock P-Zeros on his car, but I use my car year round as a DD, so I'm reluctant to go that route given the poor wet and cold weather performance of SC2s. I think my next tires will be Pilot Super Sports and will see if they make any difference.

The new pzeros on 991.2 are way better. Near cup grip on street tire. Traded 14 tts for 17, much better tire. Porsche even states it is way better tire
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Old 07-02-2016, 11:44 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by kyrocks View Post
I would consider taking lessons instead of buying another car.
Originally Posted by soulsea View Post
Classic RL.
While it might have been posted in a more-friendly manner it's very good advice. Every dollar spent on instruction is worth $2-10 of mods depending on experience level.
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Old 07-03-2016, 02:28 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Botox View Post
The new pzeros on 991.2 are way better. Near cup grip on street tire. Traded 14 tts for 17, much better tire. Porsche even states it is way better tire
How can you tell the new generation P-Zeros? The one benefit to the older P-zeros is they seem to be more readily available while the Michelins are chronically out of stock.
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Old 07-03-2016, 07:06 AM
  #27  
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Hello everyone:
Have my TTS .1 since May. Best DD I ever had. Big grins all day long. (Nearly) NOTHING can beat it on the street (had a 991GT3 which was also nice as DD; also had the 991RS but that was too much of a boy racer style for the street IMHO). I dub the TTS fittingly “PAG” - Power And Glory.
Power on the street seems to be there in abundance.

On track? Different story. My bone stock and fitted with lots of goodies (so heavy car) and with the P-Zeros I was about 4 seconds slower (Hockenheimring Germany 1:58 with TTS; 1:54 with GT3) but the TTS lap times was with some traffic so maybe another second or two left on the table. An optimized GT3 can do also 1:53 on the other side. Was a bit surprised so, that I was not able to outrun GT3s on the straights. Only managed to pass them when getting better exit out of the turns and then was able to get the inside of the next corner (this was always with a passenger in the TTS). Honestly I had the impression that power felt less than on the street so maybe car had reduced power due to the heat from the hard track work is the only guess I have. Even so ambient temp was not that high. Ambient was around 85° F. Oil was also getting a bit hot for my liking at 252° F.

Brakes: outstanding stopping power with the ceramics! Wow – never had them before. OK stopping power is limited by the tires anyhow but those brakes feel really stronger than the steel ones. And this with the stock pads and brake fluid. Had Pagid yellow and race brake fluid on my GT3 and brakes felt not as strong as on the TTS.

Understeer? Was surprised that it was actually not so bad and not a big issue. Car was actually nicely balanced from my point of view.

OK the P-Zeros are not my favorite tires and I bet with Cup tires car will gain another 2 seconds. And the tires really got hot so had to lower pressure two or three times.

Honestly for track work I would prefer a GT3 but for street/DD the TTS wins hands down. If you do both – well than it is a tough decision.

For me being used to only track the GT cars I would not want to track the TTS too often. It just does not feel right in stock form. Actually I even would say that a GT3 is still too much of a street car for the track but a least it feels like it can do track days all day long. For the TTS I personally do not have this “all day long” feeling. It feels more like “raping” the car ….

Peter
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Old 07-03-2016, 09:19 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by kyrocks View Post
I would consider taking lessons instead of buying another car.
^This. Nothing improved my lap times like having a pro coach in the right seat during a session, and reviewing data on a computer after the session.
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Old 07-03-2016, 02:54 PM
  #29  
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Guys,
Thanks for all the input. Everyone who has experienced both cars in stock form have the same take away I had. Not sure if the software controlling the AWD will allow the driver to dial in a GT3 type balance.

I am facing making changes to the GT3 and as Peter points out it is very much a street car. Since the car is not a DD, I can make those and then improve my driving (with some help) to meet its new capability. I've been down the modify the car until I'm trailering it everywhere path too often. I vowed to be done with that, so trying to not slide too far down the slippery slope. Hence I was looking for other options and best of both worlds, TT power and GT3 balance. Sounds like the TT would be further from my ideal chassis dynamic and I would be facing even more mods.

Best option may be stay with the GT3 and hope for an RS or GT2, lol.

Thanks,
Carmen
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Old 07-03-2016, 04:33 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Need4S View Post
How can you tell the new generation P-Zeros? The one benefit to the older P-zeros is they seem to be more readily available while the Michelins are chronically out of stock.
The new ones extend beyond rim more with protection system. I would contact dealer regarding actual part number change. If I kept my 2014 I would put these on them, may turn out to be better tire than PSS. Another interesting tire will be the conti sport contact 6 when it becomes available.
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