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What I have noticed in the first week of driving it stock is its a bit laggy at around 2000 rpm compared to my tuned 17-4S with cats. I take it thats something that can be tuned out
When it comes to tuning your Porsche, it's crucial to shop around and not simply go with the most visible or advertised options. Just because a tuner pays to promote their products doesn't necessarily mean they offer the best quality or service.
Take the time to do thorough research. Some tuners have a history of causing significant engine issues and are adept at covering up these incidents. For instance, by searching through website archives, you can find threads that were deleted for one reason or another, providing valuable insight into their real-world performance and reliability.
Specifically, I'd advise caution when considering Cobb for your tuning needs. A quick Google search for "Project Green Cobb" will reveal some concerning information. Cobb has a track record of removing features from their products without notice, which can severely limit what you can achieve with your car. This makes it hard to justify using Cobb for any serious tuning endeavors, in my opinion. Of course, everyone has their preferences and priorities, but for me, the limitations and uncertainties with Cobb are significant drawbacks.
Moreover, tuning a Porsche is generally straightforward, and paying more than $1,000 to $1,500 for tuning services is essentially flushing money down the drain. Many affordable and effective options are available that can deliver excellent performance improvements without breaking the bank.
I have participated in multiple multi-day rallies where I pushed my Porsche very hard, and I've had no issues. In contrast, I've seen cars tuned by some of the tuners mentioned here fail dramatically, even to the extent of throwing a rod in a brand-new car with just 3,000 miles on it. The same cars tuned by other tuners blew up during the rally, while mine performed amazingly for just a third of the price of their tunes.
I expect some pushback for sharing this perspective, as it's a topic that often sparks strong opinions. However, I believe it's important to consider all viewpoints and experiences when making such an important decision about your vehicle.
Last edited by eidde; 06-28-2024 at 12:38 PM.
Reason: add more detail
Nothing you said here is wrong, that being said I had no issues using Cobb,. Yes the ots tune I got with the device was innocuous and I had to pay M engineering to do a proper tune on my. 2 4s. That worked out fine.
When it comes to tuning your Porsche, it's crucial to shop around and not simply go with the most visible or advertised options. Just because a tuner pays to promote their products doesn't necessarily mean they offer the best quality or service.
Take the time to do thorough research. Some tuners have a history of causing significant engine issues and are adept at covering up these incidents. For instance, by searching through website archives, you can find threads that were deleted for one reason or another, providing valuable insight into their real-world performance and reliability.
Specifically, I'd advise caution when considering Cobb for your tuning needs. A quick Google search for "Project Green Cobb" will reveal some concerning information. Cobb has a track record of removing features from their products without notice, which can severely limit what you can achieve with your car. This makes it hard to justify using Cobb for any serious tuning endeavors, in my opinion. Of course, everyone has their preferences and priorities, but for me, the limitations and uncertainties with Cobb are significant drawbacks.
Moreover, tuning a Porsche is generally straightforward, and paying more than $1,000 to $1,500 for tuning services is essentially flushing money down the drain. Many affordable and effective options are available that can deliver excellent performance improvements without breaking the bank.
I have participated in multiple multi-day rallies where I pushed my Porsche very hard, and I've had no issues. In contrast, I've seen cars tuned by some of the tuners mentioned here fail dramatically, even to the extent of throwing a rod in a brand-new car with just 3,000 miles on it. The same cars tuned by other tuners blew up during the rally, while mine performed amazingly for just a third of the price of their tunes.
I expect some pushback for sharing this perspective, as it's a topic that often sparks strong opinions. However, I believe it's important to consider all viewpoints and experiences when making such an important decision about your vehicle.
I use COBB on both my 996 and Sti, and to date, I have zero complaints - is there something specific you're getting at?
I think everyone takes a certain amount of risk the moment they go outside factory programming, and this is exactly the reason I have not tuned the 991 (to date).
Specifically, I'd advise caution when considering Cobb for your tuning needs. A quick Google search for "Project Green Cobb" will reveal some concerning information. Cobb has a track record of removing features from their products without notice, which can severely limit what you can achieve with your car. This makes it hard to justify using Cobb for any serious tuning endeavors, in my opinion. Of course, everyone has their preferences and priorities, but for me, the limitations and uncertainties with Cobb are significant drawbacks.
.
Cobb is two things 1) the OTS tune 2) the hardware device to transfer that tune to your car through OBD II port. If you are referring to not using Cobb OTS tunes - maybe that's what you are trying to say - and OTS tunes are generally conservative. I don't use any of their OTS tunes but use Sam's tunes transferred through my Cobb device onto my car. I have not had any issues in the 6 years I have done that.
Cobb is two things 1) the OTS tune 2) the hardware device to transfer that tune to your car through OBD II port. If you are referring to not using Cobb OTS tunes - maybe that's what you are trying to say - and OTS tunes are generally conservative. I don't use any of their OTS tunes but use Sam's tunes transferred through my Cobb device onto my car. I have not had any issues in the 6 years I have done that.
I used the 996tt OTS tune for a couple of years, there was a bit more power, but I think they likely tuned it fairly conservatively to avoid any major problems.
Cobb is two things 1) the OTS tune 2) the hardware device to transfer that tune to your car through OBD II port. If you are referring to not using Cobb OTS tunes - maybe that's what you are trying to say - and OTS tunes are generally conservative. I don't use any of their OTS tunes but use Sam's tunes transferred through my Cobb device onto my car. I have not had any issues in the 6 years I have done that.
I recommend investigating Cobb Green further. Some tuners, including those on this site, have misrepresented this issue and continue to endorse an outdated product due to their familiarity with that platform. This may stem from a lack of expertise or from habitually applying the same tune to Porsche models.
I empathize with the significant number of Porsche users who initially invested in Cobb products and remain loyal despite these issues. While Cobb offers user-friendly interfaces and appealing marketing, it may not meet the needs of more discerning drivers or tuning experts.
Research into Cobb Green reveals that many in the tuning community avoid Cobb products due to their device limitations and other concerns. This issue has affected enthusiasts across various car communities, including those involving vehicles like the GTR. Many have faced disappointments due to feature removals such as speed density and E85 tuning.
It's disheartening to encounter a company or tuner who sells a product with promised features, only to retract them shortly after purchase without offering refunds. Such practices are both questionable and unethical.
I think it’s fantastic that on our platform Cobb has invested the time and money to go green. Not a single client has come on here and complained that they were let down by the access port capabilities or buy it going green. At least not one of ours. In fact, Cobb is one of the only turning companies out there that you can go and get a Smog inspection done with an EO certification with your device. Not to mention that personally, I provide a full guarantee. Of course there are risks in the more aggressive stuff. Depends on what you are trying to do. But, you can always set your goals and speak with your tuner of choice to meet your goals. If safety is primary, then you prioritize that as apposed to going for 1000hp and you can still do very well. If you want to push the envelope, there are risks but again that’s pretty rare in the grand scheme and most people are aware. There are a very few here who just have a chip on their shoulder against a particular brand and affiliates of that brand. The fact is that most widely used tuning device for the Porsche platform by far is Cobb. The most happy conservative tune customers, the most stock computer records and everything in between. It’s pretty hard to argue. Any platform, any tuner and any even stock car can and will have its issues. If everyone is open and honest with each other that things move forward. Definitely don’t take one opinion or even two, do your research and do what’s right for you. Cheers
Last edited by SamboTT@ByDesign; 06-28-2024 at 03:54 PM.
Nothing Almost everything you said here is wrong...
Fixed that for you, please see below.
Originally Posted by eidde
I recommend investigating Cobb Green further. Some tuners, including those on this site, have misrepresented this issue and continue to endorse an outdated product due to their familiarity with that platform.
An outdated product while we've released new Accessport support for upwards of 20 different Porsche models/trims in the past year, including just announcing MY24 911 and 718 support just last week. Including full Accesstuner Pro support that allows full customization of calibrations for your specific vehicle/combination of parts by your choice of COBB Protuner instead of being locked into only a single company's or even single person's idea of what is the correct calibration strategy, methodology or requirements for your particular application. Oh, and we're regularly adding new capabilities to Accesstuner Pro directly from feedback and requests from our vast network of Protuners to accommodate expanded capabilities from new modifications, limitation discoveries, etc.
Originally Posted by eidde
This may stem from a lack of expertise or from habitually applying the same tune to Porsche models.
This one...I don't even know where to start with this but it's quite literally virtually impossible with the laundry list of different ECUs Porsche has installed over the broad range of applications we support. Even the most recent models that share the same basic ECU utilize entirely different calibration strategies from model to model and even trim to trim. Do you really think it's possible to utilize the same tune from a 992TTS with Variable Turbine Geometry turbos to a 992 GTS with conventional wastegate turbos?
Originally Posted by eidde
I empathize with the significant number of Porsche users who initially invested in Cobb products and remain loyal despite these issues. While Cobb offers user-friendly interfaces and appealing marketing, it may not meet the needs of more discerning drivers or tuning experts.
I just quoted this portion because it made me chuckle at the thinly veiled attempt at "empathy" while backhandedly insulting both people who would waste money on a COBB product along with COBB and it's affiliated Protuners as possessing any expertise at all in aftermarket calibration of Porsches. Good thing we've never had any Pikes Peak winning Porsches with COBB tunes, 1/2 mile and 1 mile event winners, various world record holding cars, etc. etc. Definitely zero expertise, someday maybe eidde will upgrade us to ranked amateurs on his expert ratings scale.
Originally Posted by eidde
Research into Cobb Green reveals that many in the tuning community avoid Cobb products due to their device limitations and other concerns. This issue has affected enthusiasts across various car communities, including those involving vehicles like the GTR. Many have faced disappointments due to feature removals such as speed density and E85 tuning.
Huh...I must have missed that intercompany memo, discussion emails, slack messages, various planning meetings, the marketing test emails, and the official release statement for when we removed all of that from the website and GTR ATP. Oh...wait...
On no!!! We must have forgotten to take all those GTR CAN Flex fuel (<cough> E85) products off the website for the past three years, we're gonna be in so much trouble!!! Thank you so much for letting my know, I've got my website guys on it right now.
Oh...wait...not again...
I can't believe we missed all those Speed Density ECU options from ATP. Some random people on the internet said it's gone so there's no way we could still have it in software!!! (Sorry, I gave up screenshotting the full list but rest assured, the drop down menu goes all the way down to the last MY GTR we support. And yes, it's the current version of GTR ATP, I should know since I had to download it for the first time in five years just to get that screenshot but if you're extra picky for confirmation, feel free to take the version number from the top menu bar and email or call out support team, they'll be happy to confirm for you. Or, contact your favorite GTR Protuner that already has it.)
Originally Posted by eidde
It's disheartening to encounter a company or tuner who sells a product with promised features, only to retract them shortly after purchase without offering refunds. Such practices are both questionable and unethical.
I can feel you are truly disheartened all the way from Austin, for sure. Your tone and overall demeanor towards COBB Tuning in your posts genuinely reflect that sentiment. Fortunately for you though, I have excellent news! What you so deeply hold as a truth has been wrong for...over three years now!!! Though we did have to remove some features from Accesstuner Pro to, ya know, stay in business at all, we did offer various different forms of refund or reconciliation for every affected customer that reached out to us, in some form or fashion. Some full refunds, some partial refunds, some within our normal 30 day Money Back guarantee, some that had parts installed on their cars for over a year, some that had parts sitting BNIB for a year. I apologize that you've been misinformed for so long but feel free to reach out to support@cobbtuning.com at any time and you never know, we're really not sticklers when it comes to our return policy so even now, over three years later, maybe our customer service department can still work something out for your return. Well, assuming you've ever bought anything from us? But I digress.
Originally Posted by eidde
Best of luck, dont update your Cobb device.
Sigh. Ahhhh. This gem. Good to see I've never personally answered this one before. Not even once. Not even in this subforum, or at least four other subforums on Rennlist. Definitely not, never.
Whatever maps you had on your V3 Accessport prior to our emissions compliances changes years ago, that includes previous OTS maps, Protuned maps, maps made by the kid down the street with a bugeye and Accesstuner Race, all still work on your V3 AP even after the latest firmware update. and will continue to work, in perpetuity, hard stop. The end. They can be flashed to your ECU, they can be added to, removed from, resaved a thousand times, whatever you want to do. The only "loss" of maps were OTS maps that were no longer emissions compliant and were removed during a firmware update of the Accessport. GASP!!! We've been doing that for 20 years before then and the three years since too, how absolutely nefarious of us!!! We've always removed the previous version of OTS maps during an AP firmware update and replaced them with the latest version of maps if that particular firmware update included new maps. Otherwise, you could end up with hundreds and hundreds of exactly named maps that you could only differentiate by going into the long description and looking at the version number for. All anyone had to do was save the previous version OTS maps to their computer and then move them back to the AP after the update. That's it. Backup copies, groundbreaking technology I know. In reality, its a standard recommended procedure for everyone to read the map notes, which are on screen in AP Manager prior to you manually initializing an AP firmware update, to confirm what that new FW contains and if it's updated maps, go ahead and make backups of the old ones. There are plenty of times over our 25 years of existence people have preferred the old OTS maps over the new OTS maps for whatever reasons. Andddddd before anyone says it, no, AP Manager does not automatically update AP firmware the instant the AP is plugged in and detected. It's an option, sure, but it literally takes two different button clicks to enable from the default setting of OFF OFF:
So several hours into this rebuttal now let me finally start with an apology for my overall tone in my response above. This is quite obviously not the first time, and unfortunately almost certainly not the last time, I've personally addressed every single one of these incorrect statements and falsehoods as regurgitated above. At some point, it gets a little old for all of us and frankly, we were past that point several years ago. As with anything in our world today it's strongly recommended that you take anything posted on the internet with a very very heavy dose of salt.
For whatever reason, there are plenty of people who continue to carry around borderline close to the Dead Sea's entire volume of saltiness in regards to the <cough><cough> totally required, not even remotely by choice, actions COBB was forced to take several years ago in regards to non-emissions compliance products throughout our product lineup. Those products included some OTS maps, some specific exhaust components, a wide swath of Subaru flex fuel components, and many others. With even a small amount of actual research you'll find that factual information readily available on the internet posted by COBB representatives and COBB dealers, and COBB Protuners over and over and over. However, it's apparently much more entertaining to run around hysterically with panic **** statements about a company abusing their customer's wallets, claims such as a track record of removing significant features- when it's occurred once in 25 years of business, not have any expertise, reusing tunes, a useless out of date product, etc etc, especially when those falsehoods and factually incorrect statements emanate from a seemingly well intentioned, unbiased, and potentially educated on the subject matter source.
Alas, axe grinders gonna grind so every so often I'll have to waste the better part of another Friday afternoon punching holes in the tales of how COBB took away all of our toys and then kicked our dogs.
For those of you still reading and wanting some actual Porsche content, it's finally here! In reality, the Porsche product from COBB Tuning was the least affected platform by the required emissions compliances changes. The reasons for that are many but suffice to say the changes were there, but they were not drastic and certainly not the sky is falling. In totality they boiled down to specific emissions related DTCs no longer being allowed to be suppressed in our Accesstuner software. Since our in-house COBB calibrators use the exact same software as our Protuners do, that meant both our new OTS maps and new Protuned maps would no longer be capable of those unfortunately, illegal for street use and even race car use, features.
Which DTCs are you talking about Jared? I'm so glad you asked! The big no no ones that everyone knows if they've ever tried to run catless anything exhaust on any car made since 1996.
Surprise surprise, despite the latest Supreme Court ruling from today, Federal law regarding emissions compliance still supersedes any of your local state laws and that specifically includes EPA/DOT regulations regarding the required use, location, and construction of catalytic converters. No, just because you're in Florida and you don't have state inspection does not mean catless downpipes are legal. Last I checked Florida was still part of the United States and thus subject to Federal law, despite ones personal hopes around Bugs Bunny's sawing ability. No, just because you're in another country, like Canada, or Madagascar, or something ending in 'stan, we can't magically enable those features just for you because we can't control where the product goes in the world after it's supposedly in your hands. Long story short, you used to be able to potentially do catless things in Porsche with no repercussions and you can't anymore. There were some other tangentially associated emissions DTCs related to airflow, etc etc but short version, as long as you're running cats, you should experience little to no difference. But again...keep your old maps, they'll still load on to the AP, they'll still flash to the car, you simply can't get them updated to newer things. They are what they are in perpetuity and that goes for every single custom tuned GTR on Speed Density, and every single Subaru on E85 using our old flex fuel kits. Those maps are still fully functional and capable and will remain so for as long as the user keeps them, they simply cannot be updated, adjusted, or redistributed by us or a Protuner.
And with that, it's gotta be beer:thirty somewhere
Wow Jared! That’s a case of beer for sure. Thank you for clarifications and for what it’s worth please let me add. The biggest panic has always been started by this same person.
Thank you for your response. I noticed some contradictions, which is understandable. Are you saying I can get a full refund from Sam and your company for the thousands of dollars I spent on hardware and tunes just before the green update? Im sure the GTR and Subaru community would love to hear that also.
Many of us use our cars for racing and track events, requiring modifications that the government has deemed unacceptable. This is my main issue. Sam has repeatedly told me that I cannot get a refund, feel free to search the forum around the same time frame this happened.
*** short version*** Will Sam or Cobb refund us for the money we spent to get the tunes with the DTC deletes tunes pre green ?
Best of luck, and I apologize that you have to live in Austin.
06-27-2024, 03:18 PM
