TooTurbos

Not trying to be a Debbie downer here, but I watched the episode a couple weeks ago and was really excited to see how the turbo would hold up. And in the end it seemed like the computer was the reason it couldn’t complete the required laps on track. It was stated that it just needed a “hard reset” because of a torque overage value? Or something like that. But this doesn’t seem to jive with the “better than stock” mantra. Can you elaborate to help us understand this better and why it wouldn’t happen on future builds??

Thanks!!

Cicio Performance

First off that is awesome that people on this forum watched that. I thought maybe it was a waste of my time. Thank you for watching!

Actually that was on the stock computer which is one of the reasons we pushed Motec to finish the .2 firmware early for my personal car for the finals. The stock computer through Cobb at least on the .2 is very very limiting. It gives you very little control over torque tables as well as a lot of other things. I know there are other options out there for flashing the factory ECU which all have their pluses and minuses but overall at that power level the factory ECU just isn't the best weapon.

Let's take one example and use meth injection. Meth injection is used on a lot of these cars given the limitations of the fuel system. Most guys running over 650whp run meth or some kind of alternate fueling system. Well with the factory ECU it simply does not know the meth is there. The meth is triggered by a hob switch or controller of some kind and the tuner just finds the round about spot in the fueling. map where it's going to spray. The issue is that depending on if the driver rolls into it at 2k RPM or 5K rpm that is never going to be spot on. Thankfully the ECU is closed loop and the trims take care of what the tuner can't anticipate, however it always causes poor fueling, rich or lien areas and most the time not the best drivability. With the Motec we trigger the meth with the M1, we then use a fuel subtractor or multiplier depending on if it's on it's way in or out to smooth the fueling input to the engine. We setup delays and anticipated trims so that the fuel trims never swing, the car never goes rich on the hit or lien on lift ever. It just merges the alternate fuel in without any hacking to the fuel table and then tapers it out the same way.

That is just one of about 100 different things we can do much better in the M1 than we ever could in the factory computer. I certainly don't want to down play how good the Porsche ECU is, however it is still a computer designed to control a factory car and when modifications come in it simply doesn't have the speed or control to be efficient.


Now, spoiler alert in the finals we did have an issue with the Motec LOL! So don't get mad at me haha. It was however simply a sensor scaling issue that was my own fault not the Motec. We only had the computer on the car for 3 days before the event given the rush from Motec. In those 3 very long days we had to develop a calibration file from absolute scratch.... meaning the car wouldn't even move on it's own power just start and idle on the base map. In the setup we missed the scaler on the fuel temp sensors which when the fuel got hot caused the pressure to raise more than anticipated which caused some issues. But, that was fixed literally right after Tanner got out of the car with nothing but 10 minutes of figuring it out and then me getting in the car for the roll racing portion. Probably more info that you were looking for but better too much than not enough.

I hope that answers some questions and if you have anymore please do not hesitate to ask. I welcome anyone's thoughts, I'm not here to just sell something I'm here because this is exciting and I love explaining why.

Enjoy your Friday gents!

vman932

Great info. I really enjoyed watching your car on Sorted and am eager to see the finals. I appreciate the transparency about what happened. Keep up the good work.

2fcknfst

I am most certainly a fan of standalone systems, but I also think that clever tuners using a system like the Cobb are able to identify AFR, EGT, boost control and knock parameters with the data flow from the ECU that allows them to program around and incorporate things such as meth. Once you know what a given mills sweet spot is, target AFRs are much easier to hit nowadays with cars (such as ours) that come equipped with wide band O2 sensors from the factory. With the 991.2 in particular, a more stout fuel system than the .1 cars is allowing for Cobb tuners on the board to run some truly impressive, and reliable, numbers.

Although the ability to be able to have more 'design' into torque management sounds very cool, and probably is more beneficial for dedicated track or half mile cars, in reality, most guys who drive these cars on a daily basis cannot run great gobs or torque through the PDK in fear of grenading the gearbox and introducing reliability issues, which can become very spendy, very quickly.

The reliability issues you describe above are not limited to issues with one tuner or the other, rather, it is all part of the tuning learning curve - irrespective of what system you are using. Considering the fact you are essentially re writing the Porsche code, this is dam impressive, and you are likely going to have much success with clients that want to run into the 13,14,15, 1600+ hp world who will require full logic control of all these parameters. I also suspect this level of advanced adjust-ability will come at a price.

Payam, on this board, has just finished building a monster of the motor. I thought it was very clever that he had the foresight to plumb in 6 individual EGTS at each exhaust port in the car. In my mind, this not only gives him a redundancy on avoiding meltdown when he is going flat out, it will allow for very fine tuning of his spark and fuel tables. I am not sure what ECU (or I cannot recall)he is using, but I suspect this is not Cobb based.

Conversely, there are many folks on this board that are using a Cobb based system that are reliably producing close to, if not more than 1000hp at the crank - I am looking at you, Brah! - and at the Cobb's price point, it is a very competitive market, especially when you factor in the very skilled tuners that are already on the platform.

I look forward to how your development goes; I think making 210mph in the standing mile is a good goal, or reliably supporting 500+HP/liter is another one...

Cheers,

Cicio Performance

While I can appreciate your post just as I can appreciate the people who tune these cars on factory ECU that does not mean they aren't doing that with major handicaps. This system most certainly isn't for everyone as the stock ECU does an OK job. To your first point I understand what you are saying that the stock ECU with Cobb gathers all the information and allows the tuner to adjust fueling based on it as well as knock parameters which is great. However like I was saying there are many many safety measures that the factory ECU doesn't allow. Let's just take a simple thing like meth / fueling. What happens if the meth on a 991 stops working when the engine is relying on that meth for fuel? Well the car simply starts injection window misfiring like crazy because the stock ECU has no idea the meth isn't spraying. Not to mention that there isn't even fuel trim or pressure safety cuts in the factory ECU to combat that or shut the car down due to the lien conditions. Honestly the only reason that these cars have been able to be as reliable as they are is based on how overbuilt Porsche made them. It has nothing at all to do with the tuner or the stock ECU being capable.

Then we can go into boost control which on a 991 is not possible to do with the factory system if the turbo kit isn't VTG based. You have to install a boost controller or a translation system that the ECU isn't designed to work with at all. Does it work? Yes! Is it integrated into the tuning strategy with safeties and closed loop control? No it is not. There are also no boost cuts/limits able to be set in Cobb, oil pressure limits or safeties, fueling safeties or basically any alarm helping the engine when or if something isn't perfect.

Please understand I am not arguing with you at all, I do believe that a lot of people can get by with Cobb, we have been Cobb master tuners since long before they were even doing Porsche, so I have a great relationship with them. However the Cobb / Stock ECU are very handicapped to be able to control a 1000hp 991. It will work, and it will work just fine... most end users won't know the difference on lower HP cars unless one of those systems that the stock ECU can't see stops working and there is damage because of it. Please don't get me wrong, I will absolutely still build our 800hp CL3 package with the stock ECU and be confident in doing it. However if a customer wants the maximum control, drivability, safety then it is a simple fact that the stock ECU can't provide that. You are absolutely correct that the price point of the Motec is prohibitive to an extent, I didn't set the price but rather Motec did. However if one of those many safeties by chance saved someones $40,000 dollar engine... well the extra 4k wouldn't seem that expensive.

I as well am very excited about the future developments, this post isn't a "bash" on the stock ECU or the people who tune them because hell...we tune them lol! It's a great system, Cobb has done an ok job developing it... but the Motec is leaps and bounds ahead. As it should be for the development and price that an integrated motorsports ECU has. Let's just be happy we don't have R8s or Huracan that have two ECUs which makes the Motec like 13k or something LMAO!

Thank you for the post! I appreciate the viewpoint and great conversation.

2fcknfst

My pleasure, no argument detected, so lets carry on the conversation...

Not to mention that there isn't even fuel trim or pressure safety cuts in the factory ECU to combat that or shut the car down due to the lien conditions.

I was under the impression that the OEM programing has these features built into the stock ECU, commonly known as 'limp mode' when something isn't operating within the parameters it should be - if I am wrong, I will obviously stand corrected, however, I put so much as half a liter more oil in the car than it required and it immediately told me it was unhappy. I would think that a rudimentary fueling or spark issue would also make itself known, no matter what software was running the fuel/spark and boost tables.

It would also seem logical that some type of error would present itself if your meth system failed while under fully loaded condition - I'm thinking knock would be the most obvious, wide band out of range, etc. You are absolutely spot on that ill conceived programming and logic control puts the $40k mill at risk, and I believe that in the back of anyone's mind they are always considering 'what if...' the moment they start tuning or modding outside of factory parameters. This is not to say it cannot be done in a reliable manner, but I think the average TTs owner makes a certain risk assessment on what they want to do on an individual basis, and what their comfort level is when they dance with the devil, as it were.

Then we can go into boost control which on a 991 is not possible to do with the factory system if the turbo kit isn't VTG based.

Again, I was under the impression that the car itself had a strategy embedded in the code essentially to limit boost in an effort to prolong drivetrain life, and was using the VTG vanes to control boost, in a similar manner as to what diesels do with variable vane turbos - if I am mistaken or have over simplified it, I will stand corrected (again), but I did think that this functionality was in itself a 'safety measure'.

I note on your website that the 991.2 ECU solution is not priced - do you mind sharing that with us?

Cheers,

Ttz06vette

In regards to meth, there have to be tables in the stock ECU that pull timing based on IAT and can be used for safety. I would also think there are fuel trim correction limits that do the same when trims go above a designated percentage enrichment. There are meth controllers that also validate meth flow both visibly and through mechanical inline devices that can be wired into boost controllers like the Eboost2 for safety. It sounds like the Motec not only detects but also compensates?

onfireTTS

Safety, compensation, tables, all truly depend on how much Meth you are using....using it as a major fuel source, then the flow stops, can cause damage before the response time can drop timing, boost, etc. I have used an engine cut off in the past for safety....but I never tested it.

Now , a bit of use to add a bit of octane and cooler IAT, you should be able to mitigate a pump quitting without damage if controlled properly.

lituoklis88

Anybody install this yet outside of OP?

Cicio Performance

So far we have sold 11 kits to dealers. I would say about half of them are currently running in cars.

Cicio Performance

I am really sorry for some reason I never got an email for your reply, I know it's old but I would love to answer anyway.

I was under the impression that the OEM programing has these features built into the stock ECU, commonly known as 'limp mode' when something isn't operating within the parameters it should be - if I am wrong, I will obviously stand corrected, however, I put so much as half a liter more oil in the car than it required and it immediately told me it was unhappy. I would think that a rudimentary fueling or spark issue would also make itself known, no matter what software was running the fuel/spark and boost tables.

We are of course talking about safeties that are hopefully never going to happen, but I will present worst case scenario anyway. The factory ECU doesn't know that there is meth being sprayed so unfortunately it's not setup to handle such conditions. Will the car knock probably yes, will it injection window misfire due to a lack of fuel? Yes. But at the end of the day if you are making 800hp on your upgraded turbo 991 then you are using meth for 200ish hp of that fueling. If that instantly stops because maybe someone forgot to fill their tank or the pump goes bad or the pump air cavities, then instantly the car doesn't have 200hp worth of it's fueling. There is no IAT corrections, no knock corrections in the stock ECU that are near fast enough to recover from that. The 991 engine is very over built so will it live through it? Probably yes, but will it like it for long? No it won't. The Motec on the other hand has an input on the pressure sensor line that instantly limits the throtte/power/torque to whatever the tuner desires if it's not satisfied.

Again these are just specific instances, really the real power is that the Motec can control seamless port injection which is the proper way to fuel an engine rather than a single meth nozzle, but also much more expensive.


It would also seem logical that some type of error would present itself if your meth system failed while under fully loaded condition - I'm thinking knock would be the most obvious, wide band out of range, etc. You are absolutely spot on that ill conceived programming and logic control puts the $40k mill at risk, and I believe that in the back of anyone's mind they are always considering 'what if...' the moment they start tuning or modding outside of factory parameters. This is not to say it cannot be done in a reliable manner, but I think the average TTs owner makes a certain risk assessment on what they want to do on an individual basis, and what their comfort level is when they dance with the devil, as it were.


The knock system does work, the fuel trims really don't matter because they see the wideband going lean and add as much fuel as they can but they can only add what the fuel system can provide. Since the fuel system is maxed at 600-650 is has no way to react in that particular case.


Understand I am not saying that a car can't be tuned on Cobb or factory ECU with meth and work. It can. We do it all the time. But no matter what, it is not near as safe as doing it on a Motec. There is however as was said above a pretty heavy cost associated with that so it's completely understandable that a lot of people won't do it at that level. The Motec is for the guy that is making 8-900 on the stock engine and wants the maximum in performance and reliability. The factory ECU simply can't touch the Motec capability or processing power, and it is definitely for the client that wants to build their engine and utilize port injection and much larger turbos... it blows the competition out of the water in that regard.

Thanks so much for the awesome questions/conversation!

cosmo1

My porsche carrera 991.2 with pure turbos was tuned at APR using Motec last year. No dme replacement but they did Motec to tune it and has also tuned my 991.2 turbo s recently. I believe they were the first.

vrybad

Can you clarify?
No dme replacement but tuned with Motec?
Does the car pass emissions as it sits?
Just curious because I'd love to see something like the Motec paired with the factory setup to allow big power while meeting emissions parameters.
I know it is unlikely but just wondering about the details of your setup.

cosmo1

https://www.goapr.com/products/softw...ECU-38T-S-9912

Cicio Performance

APR does a great job, however this is just a DME tune like a Cobb or anyone else who tunes the factory ECU. There is not a Motec used to control anything in the car. What we are offering is a full plug and play Motec solution. Very different.