SamboTT@ByDesign

The OEM is made by Braille. However, they update their technology quite often. Porsche does not change the product as fast. So essentially you get something better for 1/2 the cost. Anyone interested feel free to reach out for a deal!

Antigravity

My company is actually going to become a Vendor on RENNLIST over the next few days.... I've been lurking on the forum for about 2 months since we are looking to get either a GT3 or Turbo for our company as a Tradeshow/Trackday vehicle. So with that being the case, this post about Lithium-Ion Batteries is a timely post for what my company does. But before I go and attempt to promote my company or and break any forum rules I just wanted to offer you guys information on Lithium-Ion Batteries. That is our specialty, that is all we do so I am actually a qualified professional in this field.

With that being said I can offer to answer any questions you might have about Lithium-Ion Batteries for any form of Motorsports and beyond. I will answer any questions without boloney or hype....just the facts. The truth is you should actually know the facts if you plan to go with Lithium because there is alot about Lithium-Ion that is great, but it has some drawbacks in some applications. Additionally, there is some issues I can clear up that will allow you to understand what to watch for before that you buy that expensive weight saving battery,so it doesn't become a dead and ruined battery. Overall Lithium can be significantly superior to Lead/Acid in every respect provided you understand it and use the correct battery for your applications, and then know the basics of what you need to maintain it.

So I'll just start of with some basic stuff, but it will still be a long read... .

First and most important is Safety, and not damaging your vehicle.

1-Basically a Lifepo4 (the lithium chemistry) Battery designed for Motorsports Applications will work fine in the standard Automotive System. But where potential problems can occur is if you put a Lithium Battery on a Lead/Acid Battery Charger, or fast charge it from a low voltage which I will explain below. Many Lead/Acid chargers will over-charge Lithium Batteries, or continue over-cycling them, they also go into what is called "Desulfate Mode" which puts higher voltage (above 15v) into the Lead/Acid Battery.... Lithium will be ruined by this mode because Lithium should never be charged above 15v MAX and it does not Sulfate like Lead does. You do need to use a specific Lithium Charger to charge a lithium battery. But keep in mind an Automotive Charging system does NOT charge the way an aftermarket charger does, so you do not have to worry in most cases, unless you have an aftermarket Alternator for Racing... just make sure it doesn't go above 14.8v which is usually the standard.

2- Lithium-Ion can be dangerous when overcharged... or over-discharged then fast-charged. For example overcharging due to using the wrong charger or having some aftermarket system that start pumping voltage above 16v will damage the battery for the most part, but it can be much worse if a Alternator breaks and starts putting 24v to the battery, or you use a charger that is wrong, like a 16v charger on a 12v battery. Keep in mind this would be exceptionally rare for an modern Alternator to start pumping out high voltage but happens in older vehicles with mechanical voltage regulators that get stuck not regulating voltage. So this over-charge effect can damage the lithium cells and also can make them swell up. The worst case scenario of this is when the Lithium Battery goes into Thermal Runaway, this is basically where the lithium-battery has been damaged to a high degree and starts to spontaneously raise in temperature and basically melts down internally. Though raw flame is usually not typical with the Lifepo4 cells is absolutely can happen, but usually it is mainly high heat and alot of smoking and the battery case melting and it will damage areas around it, with a worst case being raw flame and fire.

3- There is one condition that will have the greatest potential for Thermal Runaway is when you have a Lithium Battery that does not have low-voltage protection built-in and that battery gets over-discharged down into the 2v through 8vt range..... When you take a lithium battery into a low-voltage status it is very important not to fast-charge that lithium battery. It must be massaged back up to approximately 10.5V on a quality Lithium Charger at which point it can take a normal fast charge as from a Vehicles system. But unfortunately sometimes not driving the car enough and not keeping it on a maintainer can cause this OVER-DISCHARGE of the battery.... then the User un-knowingly Jump-Starts the Car and then the car starts fast-charging the Lithium Battery from that low-voltage it was sitting at..... and this can result is the lithium battery cells swelling/expanding physically, then potentially the high heat can lead to a thermal runaway condition I explained above.

So the bottom line here is that a Lithium Battery usually needs a full and real Battery Management System (BMS) built-in to the battery... The BMS is an on-board circuit board that actually manages all the input to the Battery. Meaning the BMS will PREVENT the battery cells from being Over-Discharged, Over-Charged, and it will Balance all the Lithium Cells together so that when they discharge and are recharged again they all stay balanced and finally the BMS will monitor the Battery Temprature..... A BMS is found in most every commercial Lithium-Ion product made from Power Tool Batteries to Power Banks, and Laptop Batteries. This makes sure the USER will not accidentally over-discharge the battery, and will get the longest potential life from the battery since it controls how the battery is charged and has the built-in protections for over-discharge and over-charge.

Unfortunately the Braille Battery mentioned above does not have any of those protections... not trying to bash them, I'm just stating facts. Most the batteries we have opened and tested by Braille offer none of the Protections for Lithium-Ion batteries that are required, in fact the Brailles didn't even have Cell Balancing which is the bare minimum you should have when using Lithium-Ion products. We did not test them all... but I see no indication from Braille they have done this yet. That's not good at all. So while the Porsche Lithium Battery is GROSSLY over-priced, it does have those protections in it and it built correctly as is the McLaren Lithium Starter Battery. Without the protections and BMS if you drop your Lithium Battery below 10.5v you are going into an OVER-DISCHARGED state... and you battery is being damaged. Additionally when your battery sits in the lower voltage ranges from 2v~9v the damage is rapidly occurring and the longer in that state of low voltage the more damage and I am talking a few hours of very low voltage and you battery is ruined. So you can quickly ruin your Lithium Battery by over-discharge.

Can a Lithium battery operate without the BMS and Protections.... yes it can, and if you maintain it and don't let it get to a low state of charge it can work well for a while... but it will absolutely not get its full life span and start to degrade after 6 months and have potential safety issues if not maintained. Lithium is rated from 2000-2500 cycles for the cells (quality cells), Lead acid is rated at 750 to 1000 cycles on a good battery... so the potential for Lithium for a much longer life span is great PROVIDED you don't over-discharge/over-charge it AND you have to keep the cells balanced. Not having the BMS significantly decreases the lifespan and opens up the potential for Thermal Runaway and battery damage if over-discharged.

On to other stuff...
1- Your modern Porsches have A LOT of Parasitic Draw/Drain on them from onboard computers, the ECU, anti-theft electronics etc.... this one reason why you would want the largest Amp Hour Battery in there.... because if the car sits for a few weeks it can draw down a 48Ah battery which is pretty significant draw compared to other cars... So then you need the maintainer if you are not driving enough to keep it charged. So when you are putting in a Lithium Battery, in most cases you WILL NOT be getting as may REAL Amp Hours as with a Lead Acid Battery of the same physical size. This is for a few reasons but basically due to the cost of the Lithium Cells, and the fact is Lithium has so much more Power (Cranking Amps) than Lead Acid that it's crazy. For example we make a Lithium Battery that is 1 pound and 1" wide by 4" long by 3" tall and it can easily rip start not only any Porsche, but easily starts Chevy 350 Motors like in a Silvarado Truck.... but that 1 pound battery only has 2.5 Amp Hours... which would be drained in a few hours by the Parasitic Drain in your typical modern Porsche. So the power isn't the issue.... its the Amp Hours IF you are mainly using it for a daily driver. For example the Braille Battery is about a 25Ah battery. About half as much REAL Amp Hours as the stock Lead/Acid battery.... so under a Parasitic Drain it will not sit as long as the stock Lead/Acid battery. So you had better keep in on the (lithium specific) maintainer. And if you forgot about it for a few weeks and didn't put it on the Maintainer your Braille Battery is going to be dead and ruined unfortunately because it will have been Over-Discharged.... and Braille won't cover you under warranty... not would any company... you are NOT allowed to over-discharge a battery and make a warranty claim. And since the Braille does not have the built-in Low Voltage Cut off you battery is not protected from Over-discharge or a warranty claim. So that is the tricky area to watch for on the Braille Battery and less advanced Lithium-Ion products. You can ruin it quickly where as other companies (wink-wink nod-nod) do have the protections and make it correctly and protect the battery from Damage... therefore making a battery that lasts and is more "fool-proof" so to speak.

2- A poster above asked about why he was told the Porsche system need to be set up on the vehicle for Lithium..... I have been in discussions with a Renn-Lister about batteries for a while as we were getting up to speed on Porsche's systems in relation to batteries and was informed that the PIWIS has to be set for the lithium battery, which I assume is just allowing the system to know there is a lithium battery in the vehicle and it might provide some different alogorithm for charging the lithium battery, but I assume it just to adjust some things so the system does know there are different resting voltages between the two batteries... for example lead acid is usually resting at 12.4~12.8 and Lithium is normally resting at 13.2~13.7/

Anyway sorry for the long ramble... Education is really important in this relatively new Lithium Battery market, and there is alot of mis-information and lack of understanding the maintenance on model without a BMS. So if you have any questions please let me know. I will continue to just offer facts and not promote what we do until we are on as an official vendor and I will then make a Battery Thread so people can get the low-down and tech understanding for Lithium-Ion Starter products.

Randyc151

VoltPhreaks? Anyway, that was an excellent educational post! Thank you!

Antigravity

We are Antigravity Batteries...hence my "Antigravity" handle. I expect a few days to finalize and be a Premium Vendor then I can show some really cool stuff we are doing in as far as battery technology in Lithium-Ion applications for Starter Batteries. We also have some very cool other products... but they are all related to Lithium-Ion only since that is what we do.

72offsuit

Wow, excellent educational post and I see why you need to program "new" Porsche battery. Not sure I am even a good enough driver to notice the weight savings but find the theory and engineering fascinating.

Randyc151

Look - Antigravity is now a sponsor! Welcome!

Hey, I talked to my dealer today, and they do say they need to do some reprogramming for the Lithium battery that will take 30 minutes, meaning about $400 when the bill is finished. Taking it in on Wednesday, and will report back. So far, feeling very good about this battery, especially when driving around town with auto start/stop. It fires up quicker than before by my seat of the pants evaluation.

worf928

worf928

Steve Cole

My 991.2 has been sitting for 10 weeks. When I unlock it, which I'm doing every two weeks, the headlights burn as bright as the day I put it into the garage. It's protecting its battery very well.

Now, I have used Antigravity cells in my race bikes and I currently have three race bikes with an AG battery in them. It's vital that you keep them strong when they're small, but I use a 12 cell (iirc) in my RSV4 and it doesn't need much maintenance. No doubt a car battery will have a pretty good reserve of power. The key here is just like Sam and Antigravity have said - don't try to save a little bit of weight with an under-sized battery. You're already saving so much weight that you should think of the inconvenience of having issues if you under-size the battery.

The end resellers usually don't know what they're talking about and will sell you the smaller battery because weight is the big draw... for example, I was sold a 4-cell battery as a "racing battery" for my GSX-R 600. There was a delay at the race start line and having no coolant fans, I shut the bike off. I got as lucky as a person gets, because as the engine turned over slow then slower, it caught and started literally a second before the starting marshal hit the green light. People have been killed in sportbike races at the start line when a bike behind them crashes into them at full throttle, because they're looking at the start light and not the rider in the line in front of them. Which is a long way of saying *GET THE RIGHT-SIZED BATTERY* if you're going to do it.

I'm certainly intrigued.

SamboTT@ByDesign

Good stuff guys. And yes the higher end batteries come with special chargers and built-in electronics.

Randyc151

I'm sure Antigravity makes great batteries. Not for nothing, but Braille is the undisputed leader in lithium batteries for auto racing. They supply lots of NASCAR teams, all of the DTM teams, some Indy and F1 teams, all of the Australian V8 Supercar teams, all of the Japanese Super GT cars, nearly all of the GT3 Cup teams, lots of Pirelli Cup teams, and nearly all of the IMSA cars. I talked to a couple of IMSA guys about this before I made my purchase, and both swear by Braille. There may be some other great choices, but Braille has plenty of big time followers, too.

Alternatively, the one automotive battery Antigravity shows on their website looks nearly comparable amperage to the battery I got, but half the price with protection circuitry. It's a good time to swap batteries, indeed!

Antigravity

I do not wish to beat up on Braille, though I don't think anyone is insinuating I was.... I love the way they look, and it's great that they make so many different case styles and OEM drop in fit sizes, and they work great in Race Car and other applications, and can perform absolutely fine provided you watch your battery so you don't potentially over-discharge it... I won't tell anyone NOT to buy it if that is what they want. I will point out facts and toot our horn a little or alot as required.

My only issues with Braille is that they are quite expensive for what they give you, and being the fact that they ARE the leader in Automotive Batteries for Racing they should have been beating everybody to the punch and developing newer technology and leading the Industry. Maybe they didn't need to because they have a lock on it... but that is gone now. Lithium is so much more advanced now... why not create better products and make a battery that is much less prone to fail the consumer. We have not seen any advancement from them except new sized models in the 6 years we have been checking there stuff out . Yet lithium technology has advanced dramatically since 6 years back. But actually this is great for Antigravity... we are beating them to the punch in technology in a massive way and though many of you may not have heard of us we are actually well known in Racing but more so on the Off-Road side, and Powersport.... For example we are in quite a few of the Trophy Trucks in the Lucas Oil Series and the Trucks/Cars/Bikes/UTVs you see running Baja. We are also in Supercross/MX and all the Moto stuff. But our hurdle will be becoming a major brand in the larger Road Racing Series, alot of it is about presence and also word of mouth. Many of those guys only know Braille ...but we are growing very fast and it's about being more involved in those Series which we haven't focused on. But I'm very stoked anyway for where we are going with our batteries and how we are leading the way.... its getting a lot of attention.

What I can tell you all with certainty is that Lithium-Ion is getting GREAT now... meaning we are eliminating the failures from accidental over-discharge because of advanced BMS protection circuits, and people are becoming more educated on using the products. Additionally, the lithium cell chemistry itself is improving dramatically and next year it is going to change again for the better. And to top it off prices, we can come in at a reasonable price point and deliver a superior product. So it's getting very good for the Customers.

Antigravity

I noted Worf928 said some said the Parasitic Drain on the Porsches was not so significant..... that is very good news. I will state I am NOT familiar with the static draw of most of the Porsche models... My statements of the fast Parasitic Draws on modern Porsches come from our supplying a number of Porsches batteries that if my memory serves me correctly were mainly in the 2006 to 2014 models and the guys were doing track days a lot. They were using our 16-Cell batteries which is a a 3 pound battery with only 10 Amp hours.... they were claiming the batteries would draw down over the course of roughly about 10 days to a week if they didn't keep them on a Maintainer. Granted 10Ah is very small in terms of Capacity but it works fine if for that use... but we have had that same battery in so many other cars and it appeared the Porsches had significantly more draw because it was the Porsche guys asking about this the most often.... But I cannot claim that is absolutely accurate being I never tested the draw with the Ammeter on the cars, and there are many variables that can cause a high Parasitic draw.... Also you are correct that when a Car first opens or the all the interior lights go on and there is a significant draw at that point... but usually after the car is locked again in about 5 to 7 minutes the car goes into a sleep mode and turns most its stuff off. So when I get our Porsche I will do some testing to better understand the actual Parasitic Draw on the Vehicle that we have. But I also read a good few forum posts about fast draining of the batteries in their cars. I will learn more as I get more involved here. But this is what I need to hear if I'm not entirely accurate with a statement.

Nanook

Very interesting information here...any insight on the new kid in town..."graphene" ? https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/29/...fast-charging/

BCMgunner