If the 991.2 GT3/RS is a turbo, are you still a buyer?
07-17-2016, 03:20 PM
#121
Race Director
good points Mike, in the end.. we will be falling all over ourselves to purchase a porsche GT car, even as a turbo in future generations.. same way Ferrari 488's aren't exactly sitting on showroom floors.
But looking just at next year, If we then can assume that the 991.2 gt3 is the last NA car (whether 3.8 or 4.0 ;-P ).. then the manual version of this car will truly become, unfortunately.. an "instant collectible". I say this because It's rare that we can so accurately predict an engine AND transmission shift from a manufacturer, and consequently be able to look at a certain model as being the last of it's breed before even being introduced. But this time, it's staring at us right in the face, so anyone who can get their hands on a manual gt3 will have struck gold.. these features might even be enough to put it on par in desirability with whatever the next RS is, as we KNOW that this will be PDK only.. maybe turbocharged.
But looking just at next year, If we then can assume that the 991.2 gt3 is the last NA car (whether 3.8 or 4.0 ;-P ).. then the manual version of this car will truly become, unfortunately.. an "instant collectible". I say this because It's rare that we can so accurately predict an engine AND transmission shift from a manufacturer, and consequently be able to look at a certain model as being the last of it's breed before even being introduced. But this time, it's staring at us right in the face, so anyone who can get their hands on a manual gt3 will have struck gold.. these features might even be enough to put it on par in desirability with whatever the next RS is, as we KNOW that this will be PDK only.. maybe turbocharged.
07-17-2016, 03:45 PM
#122
Race Director
And good points from you too, Alex. Despite the predictions, inside scoops, and perhaps wishful thinking, however, I'm not totally convinced that the 991.2 GT3 will be either normally aspirated OR have a manual option. I'm not saying it won't have either or both, just that there are some reasonable arguments (marketing as Werner mentioned, maintaining the exclusivity of the NA manual 911R as a collectible for "special customers", Euro regulations for noise levels, changing corporate agendas, etc.) for why it might not. Another NA GT car with MT may very well be in the cards, but I personally wouldn't feel comfortable betting the house on it.
07-17-2016, 04:20 PM
#123
Three Wheelin'
And good points from you too, Alex. Despite the predictions, inside scoops, and perhaps wishful thinking, however, I'm not totally convinced that the 991.2 GT3 will be either normally aspirated OR have a manual option. I'm not saying it won't have either or both, just that there are some reasonable arguments (marketing as Werner mentioned, maintaining the exclusivity of the NA manual 911R as a collectible for "special customers", Euro regulations for noise levels, changing corporate agendas, etc.) for why it might not. Another NA GT car with MT may very well be in the cards, but I personally wouldn't feel comfortable betting the house on it.
07-17-2016, 07:27 PM
#124
Just a couple thoughts here......As far as invading on 911R territory, "hypothetically" IF the car has the 3.8L (despite what is constantly reported on here they can squeeze slightly more Hp out of it) or a 4.0L rated at 480-485HP and IF a manual is offered it would still preserve the 911R exclusivity. Euro noise regulations can be addressed without going the turbo route and while its certainly the chosen path for many applications because of the benefits it is NOT a requirement. I wouldn't consider the "marketing" angle even plausible as minimal marketing is done on GT lineup anyways.
07-17-2016, 08:13 PM
#125
FWIW, I test drove a 991.2 S and was expecting negative feelings. WRONG. Compared the 991.1 C4S I had, the new car is faster, sounds almost as good, has sexier looks and is, in my opinion, a much better car and I much prefer NA engines. I already placed an order for a 991.2 Targa 4S (MT) to be my daily driver. Many people have different issues with turbo charged cars, mine are exhaust sound, exhaust sound and turbo lag. From what I have seen thus far in the non GT cars, those appear to be significantly less of an issue than in the recent past. I have little doubt the new iteration of the beloved track cars, if and when they become turbo charged, will eventually be hailed as another marvel, after all the fuss dies down. Would love to get one.
07-17-2016, 09:08 PM
#126
Race Director
Just a couple thoughts here......As far as invading on 911R territory, "hypothetically" IF the car has the 3.8L (despite what is constantly reported on here they can squeeze slightly more Hp out of it) or a 4.0L rated at 480-485HP and IF a manual is offered it would still preserve the 911R exclusivity. Euro noise regulations can be addressed without going the turbo route and while its certainly the chosen path for many applications because of the benefits it is NOT a requirement. I wouldn't consider the "marketing" angle even plausible as minimal marketing is done on GT lineup anyways.
FWIW, I test drove a 991.2 S and was expecting negative feelings. WRONG. Compared the 991.1 C4S I had, the new car is faster, sounds almost as good, has sexier looks and is, in my opinion, a much better car and I much prefer NA engines. I already placed an order for a 991.2 Targa 4S (MT) to be my daily driver. Many people have different issues with turbo charged cars, mine are exhaust sound, exhaust sound and turbo lag. From what I have seen thus far in the non GT cars, those appear to be significantly less of an issue than in the recent past. I have little doubt the new iteration of the beloved track cars, if and when they become turbo charged, will eventually be hailed as another marvel, after all the fuss dies down. Would love to get one.
07-17-2016, 09:28 PM
#127
Burning Brakes
07-17-2016, 10:11 PM
#128
I test drove the 991.2 S (pdk not manual) not on track but pushed it hard on street and did not like it compared to my 991 GT3.
Yes it is faster than the 991.1 S and GTS i am assuming but compared to my GT3 i did not enjoy it as much. The GT3 felt more of a raw race car and the C2S felt more of a luxury version of the same car.
I also felt some turbo lag but when the turbo kicked in i don't think i have seen RPMs move any faster. I don't know why they didn't make the exhaust sound of the 991.2 Turbo like the C2S. It is not as good as NA but it is darn close. The 991.2 Turbo though still sound like a vacuum
My point is although the C2S is a great car i just did not enjoy it as much as my GT3 (maybe it was the redline being much lower???).
Obviously i would prefer NA and probably would look at other cars like R8 v10 plus, Hurracan, F12 but the GT2 RS was always Turbo, i always loved that car. If it is GT3 / RS going Turbo then would look elsewhere until i drive one and fall in love but if it is a GT2 RS then if i could afford one would jump on that bec much less expensive than the bull and F horse but performs just as good or even better
PS Speaking of did the 997 GT2 RS sound as bad as the 997 TTS / 991 Turbo?
Yes it is faster than the 991.1 S and GTS i am assuming but compared to my GT3 i did not enjoy it as much. The GT3 felt more of a raw race car and the C2S felt more of a luxury version of the same car.
I also felt some turbo lag but when the turbo kicked in i don't think i have seen RPMs move any faster. I don't know why they didn't make the exhaust sound of the 991.2 Turbo like the C2S. It is not as good as NA but it is darn close. The 991.2 Turbo though still sound like a vacuum
My point is although the C2S is a great car i just did not enjoy it as much as my GT3 (maybe it was the redline being much lower???).
Obviously i would prefer NA and probably would look at other cars like R8 v10 plus, Hurracan, F12 but the GT2 RS was always Turbo, i always loved that car. If it is GT3 / RS going Turbo then would look elsewhere until i drive one and fall in love but if it is a GT2 RS then if i could afford one would jump on that bec much less expensive than the bull and F horse but performs just as good or even better
PS Speaking of did the 997 GT2 RS sound as bad as the 997 TTS / 991 Turbo?
07-17-2016, 11:52 PM
#130
Race Director
I test drove the 991.2 S (pdk not manual) not on track but pushed it hard on street and did not like it compared to my 991 GT3.
Yes it is faster than the 991.1 S and GTS i am assuming but compared to my GT3 i did not enjoy it as much. The GT3 felt more of a raw race car and the C2S felt more of a luxury version of the same car.
I also felt some turbo lag but when the turbo kicked in i don't think i have seen RPMs move any faster. I don't know why they didn't make the exhaust sound of the 991.2 Turbo like the C2S. It is not as good as NA but it is darn close. The 991.2 Turbo though still sound like a vacuum
My point is although the C2S is a great car i just did not enjoy it as much as my GT3 (maybe it was the redline being much lower???).
Obviously i would prefer NA and probably would look at other cars like R8 v10 plus, Hurracan, F12 but the GT2 RS was always Turbo, i always loved that car. If it is GT3 / RS going Turbo then would look elsewhere until i drive one and fall in love but if it is a GT2 RS then if i could afford one would jump on that bec much less expensive than the bull and F horse but performs just as good or even better
Yes it is faster than the 991.1 S and GTS i am assuming but compared to my GT3 i did not enjoy it as much. The GT3 felt more of a raw race car and the C2S felt more of a luxury version of the same car.
I also felt some turbo lag but when the turbo kicked in i don't think i have seen RPMs move any faster. I don't know why they didn't make the exhaust sound of the 991.2 Turbo like the C2S. It is not as good as NA but it is darn close. The 991.2 Turbo though still sound like a vacuum
My point is although the C2S is a great car i just did not enjoy it as much as my GT3 (maybe it was the redline being much lower???).
Obviously i would prefer NA and probably would look at other cars like R8 v10 plus, Hurracan, F12 but the GT2 RS was always Turbo, i always loved that car. If it is GT3 / RS going Turbo then would look elsewhere until i drive one and fall in love but if it is a GT2 RS then if i could afford one would jump on that bec much less expensive than the bull and F horse but performs just as good or even better
07-18-2016, 12:58 AM
#131
Race Director
Slightly OT question, but why does the 3.8L Turbo (from the Turbo) sound like a vacuum, whereas the 3.0L from the non-turbo (but still Turbo) sound more like a NA engine? Will they updating the turbo Turbo to match?.. and will size of turbo Turbo engine decrease to 3.0L also just with more boost?
07-18-2016, 04:44 AM
#132
Rennlist Member
The 991.2 Carrera has been engineered to be as close to the previous NA 991.1 911 engine as possible, in contrast to the 911 Turbo/Turbo S which historically always been a very different experience from the regular 911 Carrera.
Porsche engineers have gone to great lengths to improve the sound and minimize lag in the 991.2 Carrera, and I expect that the regular 911 buyer won't feel heartbroken to drive the new 991.2 Carrera.
I've driven the 991.2 Carrera, and it's a fantastic car for being a turbo. However, as MikeinCa stated, it's still no GT3. It takes quite a bit more to surpass the sound, throttle response, and raw visceral excitement of driving a 991 GT3/RS.
Porsche engineers will have to work a lot harder before they can accomplish that. That among other reasons is why the .2 GT3 will remain NA.
Porsche engineers have gone to great lengths to improve the sound and minimize lag in the 991.2 Carrera, and I expect that the regular 911 buyer won't feel heartbroken to drive the new 991.2 Carrera.
I've driven the 991.2 Carrera, and it's a fantastic car for being a turbo. However, as MikeinCa stated, it's still no GT3. It takes quite a bit more to surpass the sound, throttle response, and raw visceral excitement of driving a 991 GT3/RS.
Porsche engineers will have to work a lot harder before they can accomplish that. That among other reasons is why the .2 GT3 will remain NA.
07-18-2016, 07:05 AM
#133
I test drove the 991.2 S (pdk not manual) not on track but pushed it hard on street and did not like it compared to my 991 GT3.
Yes it is faster than the 991.1 S and GTS i am assuming but compared to my GT3 i did not enjoy it as much. The GT3 felt more of a raw race car and the C2S felt more of a luxury version of the same car.
I also felt some turbo lag but when the turbo kicked in i don't think i have seen RPMs move any faster. I don't know why they didn't make the exhaust sound of the 991.2 Turbo like the C2S. It is not as good as NA but it is darn close. The 991.2 Turbo though still sound like a vacuum
My point is although the C2S is a great car i just did not enjoy it as much as my GT3 (maybe it was the redline being much lower???).
Obviously i would prefer NA and probably would look at other cars like R8 v10 plus, Hurracan, F12 but the GT2 RS was always Turbo, i always loved that car. If it is GT3 / RS going Turbo then would look elsewhere until i drive one and fall in love but if it is a GT2 RS then if i could afford one would jump on that bec much less expensive than the bull and F horse but performs just as good or even better
PS Speaking of did the 997 GT2 RS sound as bad as the 997 TTS / 991 Turbo?
Yes it is faster than the 991.1 S and GTS i am assuming but compared to my GT3 i did not enjoy it as much. The GT3 felt more of a raw race car and the C2S felt more of a luxury version of the same car.
I also felt some turbo lag but when the turbo kicked in i don't think i have seen RPMs move any faster. I don't know why they didn't make the exhaust sound of the 991.2 Turbo like the C2S. It is not as good as NA but it is darn close. The 991.2 Turbo though still sound like a vacuum
My point is although the C2S is a great car i just did not enjoy it as much as my GT3 (maybe it was the redline being much lower???).
Obviously i would prefer NA and probably would look at other cars like R8 v10 plus, Hurracan, F12 but the GT2 RS was always Turbo, i always loved that car. If it is GT3 / RS going Turbo then would look elsewhere until i drive one and fall in love but if it is a GT2 RS then if i could afford one would jump on that bec much less expensive than the bull and F horse but performs just as good or even better
PS Speaking of did the 997 GT2 RS sound as bad as the 997 TTS / 991 Turbo?
07-18-2016, 08:18 AM
#134
The 991.2 Carrera has been engineered to be as close to the previous NA 991.1 911 engine as possible, in contrast to the 911 Turbo/Turbo S which historically always been a very different experience from the regular 911 Carrera.
Porsche engineers have gone to great lengths to improve the sound and minimize lag in the 991.2 Carrera, and I expect that the regular 911 buyer won't feel heartbroken to drive the new 991.2 Carrera.
I've driven the 991.2 Carrera, and it's a fantastic car for being a turbo. However, as MikeinCa stated, it's still no GT3. It takes quite a bit more to surpass the sound, throttle response, and raw visceral excitement of driving a 991 GT3/RS.
Porsche engineers will have to work a lot harder before they can accomplish that. That among other reasons is why the .2 GT3 will remain NA.
Porsche engineers have gone to great lengths to improve the sound and minimize lag in the 991.2 Carrera, and I expect that the regular 911 buyer won't feel heartbroken to drive the new 991.2 Carrera.
I've driven the 991.2 Carrera, and it's a fantastic car for being a turbo. However, as MikeinCa stated, it's still no GT3. It takes quite a bit more to surpass the sound, throttle response, and raw visceral excitement of driving a 991 GT3/RS.
Porsche engineers will have to work a lot harder before they can accomplish that. That among other reasons is why the .2 GT3 will remain NA.
07-18-2016, 05:29 PM
#135
Race Director
http://www.total911.com/world-exclus...th-manual-box/
"The manual gear lever was completely hidden from view however, the Gen2 steering wheel was noticeably bereft of the paddle shift levers seen on the PDK-equipped prototypes also in attendance during the test, while the tachometer’s gear indicator was conspicuous by its absence.
Away from the transmission mysteries, the redline on the rev counter can just be made out at the 8,800rpm mark, heavily suggesting that the Porsche 991.2 GT3 will come equipped with the GT3 RS’s 4.0-litre, 500hp flat six (a move which further strengthens the manual gearbox rumours thanks to the 911 R association)."