9A1 goes racing-Finally!!
01-10-2016, 01:56 PM
#46
I would just like to address some of this as well as the comment that fxz was trying to communicate. I know it must be frustrating trying to communicate something in words but it's difficult.
The GT1 aka Mezger engine was developed for Le Mans from the M96 which was in previous Porsches and a production engine. Just as the GT3 R engine is developed from a series production engine the 9A1. The GT1 engine came from somewhere, and didn't combust from thin air.
The GT1 aka Mezger engine was developed for Le Mans from the M96 which was in previous Porsches and a production engine. Just as the GT3 R engine is developed from a series production engine the 9A1. The GT1 engine came from somewhere, and didn't combust from thin air.
01-10-2016, 02:33 PM
#47
New factory car will be essentially mid engine to allow for enormous diffuser and WILL be a 9a1 derived turbo. Might've been a 960 if not for DieselGate. Your Mezger will be a thing of the past. Loved the motor in my 997 GT cars but its a dinosaur. If not for BOP Porsche wouldve had to get rid of that motor long long ago.
01-10-2016, 02:35 PM
#48
Race Director
Mike, believe you got this backwards.
When the decision was made to race the 991 with the Mezger engine, Hartmut Kristen, chief of Porsche Motorsport at the time, pointed out that "until the racing authorities settle on the future direction of GT regulations, Porsche did not feel justified "spending millions of Euros on a short term investment,' and so had decided to stick with the well proven engine from the previous RSR." Other manufacturers have made the same statement regarding upcoming changes in GT regulations. He was referring to ACO Le Mans / WEC racing - which is the domain of the top level factory teams. New regs are now in place and that is why we are seeing the new Ford and Ferrari with turbos.
The GT1/Mezger engine was developed for Le Mans GT racing - which it won overall in 1998. The GT1 engine was placed in the GT road cars to satisfy homolagtion rules, where as the rest of the 911 were equipped with a high production engine.
The 9a1 is a production based engine that Porsche has developed into a race engine for the the GT3R. FIA GT3 racing is very competitive these days - hope the 911 will be competitive with 9a1 - since the old GT3R (with the Mezger) was not in the last several years - as evident by virtually no teams running with the 911.
When the decision was made to race the 991 with the Mezger engine, Hartmut Kristen, chief of Porsche Motorsport at the time, pointed out that "until the racing authorities settle on the future direction of GT regulations, Porsche did not feel justified "spending millions of Euros on a short term investment,' and so had decided to stick with the well proven engine from the previous RSR." Other manufacturers have made the same statement regarding upcoming changes in GT regulations. He was referring to ACO Le Mans / WEC racing - which is the domain of the top level factory teams. New regs are now in place and that is why we are seeing the new Ford and Ferrari with turbos.
The GT1/Mezger engine was developed for Le Mans GT racing - which it won overall in 1998. The GT1 engine was placed in the GT road cars to satisfy homolagtion rules, where as the rest of the 911 were equipped with a high production engine.
The 9a1 is a production based engine that Porsche has developed into a race engine for the the GT3R. FIA GT3 racing is very competitive these days - hope the 911 will be competitive with 9a1 - since the old GT3R (with the Mezger) was not in the last several years - as evident by virtually no teams running with the 911.
I think it's important to note, though, that while the 9A1 in the GT3 is technically a production engine, it is being produced in relatively low volumes and has features that don't show up in any of the other NA 9A1 engines that Porsche makes. They don't even show up in the GT4. Special cylinder heads, lever operated valves, lightweight forged Ti internals, a higher rev limit, dry sump and revised oil pan, oil wiper, dual oil spray injectors, and higher injection pressures are just a few of the differences. In fact, AP stated that the normal 9A1 and the 9A1 in the GT3 shared only 4 components. Based on the production to racing strategy that I referred to in my earlier post I think there was an intent, not just to build a bespoke engine for the street GT3 but to take that engine racing, which they've now done.
I don't think this is necessarily at odds with your reference to Kristen's quote. Porsche had the upgraded 9A1 ready to go as the basis for the next generation of racers, but continued development and integration of the engine into the racing program would have been expensive and with the rules unsettled, they went temporarily with what they had.
I get the feeling that this is a chicken or the egg kind of argument; racing to production or production to racing. The bottom line, for me anyway, is that there is a direct connection between the engine in the current GT3 and the engine now being raced, and that's a good thing.
01-10-2016, 03:45 PM
#49
The Rebel
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I would just like to address some of this as well as the comment that fxz was trying to communicate. I know it must be frustrating trying to communicate something in words but it's difficult.
The GT1 aka Mezger engine was developed for Le Mans from the M96 which was in previous Porsches and a production engine. Just as the GT3 R engine is developed from a series production engine the 9A1. The GT1 engine came from somewhere, and didn't combust from thin air.
The GT1 aka Mezger engine was developed for Le Mans from the M96 which was in previous Porsches and a production engine. Just as the GT3 R engine is developed from a series production engine the 9A1. The GT1 engine came from somewhere, and didn't combust from thin air.
The GT1 came from the 962/959/964/993 "Mezger-designed" block/case/engine.
Your confusion lays in the code given to those GT/Turbo engines in the 996, which was M96.72 which has nothing to do with the M96 engine, except for the single head per cylinder bank.
The engine was initially designed (albeit utilizing older race proven cases and technology) for the twin-turbocharged 911 GT1 Le Mans racer, meaning that, to reduce oil surge (and a subsequently dangerous drop in pressure) during hard cornering, oil is harvested from the GT1-derived crankcase by two scavenge pumps.
This oil is transferred to a separate, baffled oil tank (which is mounted to the engine) before oil pumps – one mounted in each cylinder head – pump the lubricating fluid through the various oil galleries.
The engine is quite similar in design to the flat six found in the 962 however, where that powerplant used separate cylinder heads for each cylinder, the M96/72, as aforementioned utilizes a single head per bank and the use of an intermediate shaft to drive the cams.
The four-valve head’s design is derived from 959 (which was in fact water-cooled), extensive work was needed to mate it to the 911 GT3’s cylinder size.
In the 996 GT3 Mk1 the bore was 100mm, with a stroke of 76.4mm while, by the Mezger unit’s swansong in the 997 GT3 RS 4.0, the bore had been expanded to 102.7mm, with the remaining 200cc of capacity increase achieved with an 80.4mm stroke. As a side note, the Mezger can be pushed to 4.4L.
Thanks to its racing heritage and purpose, the GT3’s motor doesn’t suffer from IMS bearing failures like its M96 and M97 cousins. While the engine still uses an intermediate shaft to drive the camshafts, the oil pumps are driven directly by the crank. What’s more, the GT1-derived block has a different oil gallery design that ensures the IMS bearing remains lubricated at all times.
I've stated before, it was only a matter of time. Father Time doesn't cease to continue for anyone or anything. Evolution and progress is a good thing. "Mezger" engines are far from perfect and what Porsche engineers learned, they've applied to the 9A1.
01-10-2016, 04:03 PM
#50
Originally Posted by MJSpeed
You are wrong. Everything you state save the fact it was designed for Le Mans and your last sentence is completely and utterly inaccurate.
The GT1 came from the 962/959/964/993 "Mezger-designed" block/case/engine.
Your confusion lays in the code given to those GT/Turbo engines in the 996, which was M96.72 which has nothing to do with the M96 engine, except for the single head per cylinder bank.
The engine was initially designed (albeit utilizing older race proven cases and technology) for the twin-turbocharged 911 GT1 Le Mans racer, meaning that, to reduce oil surge (and a subsequently dangerous drop in pressure) during hard cornering, oil is harvested from the GT1-derived crankcase by two scavenge pumps.
This oil is transferred to a separate, baffled oil tank (which is mounted to the engine) before oil pumps – one mounted in each cylinder head – pump the lubricating fluid through the various oil galleries.
The engine is quite similar in design to the flat six found in the 962 however, where that powerplant used separate cylinder heads for each cylinder, the M96/72, as aforementioned utilizes a single head per bank and the use of an intermediate shaft to drive the cams.
The four-valve head’s design is derived from 959 (which was in fact water-cooled), extensive work was needed to mate it to the 911 GT3’s cylinder size.
In the 996 GT3 Mk1 the bore was 100mm, with a stroke of 76.4mm while, by the Mezger unit’s swansong in the 997 GT3 RS 4.0, the bore had been expanded to 102.7mm, with the remaining 200cc of capacity increase achieved with an 80.4mm stroke. As a side note, the Mezger can be pushed to 4.4L.
Thanks to its racing heritage and purpose, the GT3’s motor doesn’t suffer from IMS bearing failures like its M96 and M97 cousins. While the engine still uses an intermediate shaft to drive the camshafts, the oil pumps are driven directly by the crank. What’s more, the GT1-derived block has a different oil gallery design that ensures the IMS bearing remains lubricated at all times.
I've stated before, it was only a matter of time. Father Time doesn't cease to continue for anyone or anything. Evolution and progress is a good thing. "Mezger" engines are far from perfect and what Porsche engineers learned, they've applied to the 9A1.
The GT1 came from the 962/959/964/993 "Mezger-designed" block/case/engine.
Your confusion lays in the code given to those GT/Turbo engines in the 996, which was M96.72 which has nothing to do with the M96 engine, except for the single head per cylinder bank.
The engine was initially designed (albeit utilizing older race proven cases and technology) for the twin-turbocharged 911 GT1 Le Mans racer, meaning that, to reduce oil surge (and a subsequently dangerous drop in pressure) during hard cornering, oil is harvested from the GT1-derived crankcase by two scavenge pumps.
This oil is transferred to a separate, baffled oil tank (which is mounted to the engine) before oil pumps – one mounted in each cylinder head – pump the lubricating fluid through the various oil galleries.
The engine is quite similar in design to the flat six found in the 962 however, where that powerplant used separate cylinder heads for each cylinder, the M96/72, as aforementioned utilizes a single head per bank and the use of an intermediate shaft to drive the cams.
The four-valve head’s design is derived from 959 (which was in fact water-cooled), extensive work was needed to mate it to the 911 GT3’s cylinder size.
In the 996 GT3 Mk1 the bore was 100mm, with a stroke of 76.4mm while, by the Mezger unit’s swansong in the 997 GT3 RS 4.0, the bore had been expanded to 102.7mm, with the remaining 200cc of capacity increase achieved with an 80.4mm stroke. As a side note, the Mezger can be pushed to 4.4L.
Thanks to its racing heritage and purpose, the GT3’s motor doesn’t suffer from IMS bearing failures like its M96 and M97 cousins. While the engine still uses an intermediate shaft to drive the camshafts, the oil pumps are driven directly by the crank. What’s more, the GT1-derived block has a different oil gallery design that ensures the IMS bearing remains lubricated at all times.
I've stated before, it was only a matter of time. Father Time doesn't cease to continue for anyone or anything. Evolution and progress is a good thing. "Mezger" engines are far from perfect and what Porsche engineers learned, they've applied to the 9A1.
01-10-2016, 04:10 PM
#51
brake dust, if I have it backwards, it's probably not the first time!
I think it's important to note, though, that while the 9A1 in the GT3 is technically a production engine, it is being produced in relatively low volumes and has features that don't show up in any of the other NA 9A1 engines that Porsche makes. They don't even show up in the GT4. Special cylinder heads, lever operated valves, lightweight forged Ti internals, a higher rev limit, dry sump and revised oil pan, oil wiper, dual oil spray injectors, and higher injection pressures are just a few of the differences. In fact, AP stated that the normal 9A1 and the 9A1 in the GT3 shared only 4 components. Based on the production to racing strategy that I referred to in my earlier post I think there was an intent, not just to build a bespoke engine for the street GT3 but to take that engine racing, which they've now done.
I don't think this is necessarily at odds with your reference to Kristen's quote. Porsche had the upgraded 9A1 ready to go as the basis for the next generation of racers, but continued development and integration of the engine into the racing program would have been expensive and with the rules unsettled, they went temporarily with what they had.
I get the feeling that this is a chicken or the egg kind of argument; racing to production or production to racing. The bottom line, for me anyway, is that there is a direct connection between the engine in the current GT3 and the engine now being raced, and that's a good thing.
I think it's important to note, though, that while the 9A1 in the GT3 is technically a production engine, it is being produced in relatively low volumes and has features that don't show up in any of the other NA 9A1 engines that Porsche makes. They don't even show up in the GT4. Special cylinder heads, lever operated valves, lightweight forged Ti internals, a higher rev limit, dry sump and revised oil pan, oil wiper, dual oil spray injectors, and higher injection pressures are just a few of the differences. In fact, AP stated that the normal 9A1 and the 9A1 in the GT3 shared only 4 components. Based on the production to racing strategy that I referred to in my earlier post I think there was an intent, not just to build a bespoke engine for the street GT3 but to take that engine racing, which they've now done.
I don't think this is necessarily at odds with your reference to Kristen's quote. Porsche had the upgraded 9A1 ready to go as the basis for the next generation of racers, but continued development and integration of the engine into the racing program would have been expensive and with the rules unsettled, they went temporarily with what they had.
I get the feeling that this is a chicken or the egg kind of argument; racing to production or production to racing. The bottom line, for me anyway, is that there is a direct connection between the engine in the current GT3 and the engine now being raced, and that's a good thing.
https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-and-rs/854299-991-gt3-vs-carrera-s-engines-differences.html
01-10-2016, 04:39 PM
#52
Race Director
From the post by Petevb that you referenced:
"First, major internal components were replaced to accommodate higher revs.
Second, the head and intake were completely revised to allow for higher flow.
Finally the complete oiling system and some of the cooling system was revised for increased durability- they don't even look similar.
Outside of these areas as few parts were changed as possible. Some of the shared components surprised: piston rings, flywheel, generator, most pulleys, most ancillaries, etc are shared with the Carrera S or even the base Boxster. The important parts, however, like the heads and oiling system, have little in common with other 9A1s".
So major internal components, the head and intake, and the complete oiling and cooling system are different but some bolts, pulleys and ancillaries are the same. I can live with that.
It would be interesting to make the same part to part comparison between the Mezger and it's contemporary production engines but that's the subject of a different discussion.
01-10-2016, 05:03 PM
#53
I think perhaps we're splitting hairs.
From the post by Petevb that you referenced:
"First, major internal components were replaced to accommodate higher revs.
Second, the head and intake were completely revised to allow for higher flow.
Finally the complete oiling system and some of the cooling system was revised for increased durability- they don't even look similar.
Outside of these areas as few parts were changed as possible. Some of the shared components surprised: piston rings, flywheel, generator, most pulleys, most ancillaries, etc are shared with the Carrera S or even the base Boxster. The important parts, however, like the heads and oiling system, have little in common with other 9A1s".
So major internal components, the head and intake, and the complete oiling and cooling system are different but some bolts, pulleys and ancillaries are the same. I can live with that.
It would be interesting to make the same part to part comparison between the Mezger and it's contemporary production engines but that's the subject of a different discussion.
From the post by Petevb that you referenced:
"First, major internal components were replaced to accommodate higher revs.
Second, the head and intake were completely revised to allow for higher flow.
Finally the complete oiling system and some of the cooling system was revised for increased durability- they don't even look similar.
Outside of these areas as few parts were changed as possible. Some of the shared components surprised: piston rings, flywheel, generator, most pulleys, most ancillaries, etc are shared with the Carrera S or even the base Boxster. The important parts, however, like the heads and oiling system, have little in common with other 9A1s".
So major internal components, the head and intake, and the complete oiling and cooling system are different but some bolts, pulleys and ancillaries are the same. I can live with that.
It would be interesting to make the same part to part comparison between the Mezger and it's contemporary production engines but that's the subject of a different discussion.
I also am sure most here are not quantifying their car's prestige on whether or not their engine is "raced."
That said, I do own a 991 it's just not a GT3. I love the engine. If and when I can get my hands on a 991 R, then I will be very happy. The 9A1 with a manual transmission designed for it. Until then, I'm not holding my breath.
01-10-2016, 05:28 PM
#54
The Rebel
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The basis of the engine is the 962/959/964/993 block.
Just to be clear this is the road car your pictured article is alluding to:
Even so, who cares, the 9A1 will soon have the racing cred it has been needing for, us, the old school Porsche guys (read: old guys) have so desired it had prior to going into a production car. That said, and in danger of being Captain Obvious, the next generation of DFI/9A1 engines will surely have greatly benefitted from their racing experience.
The 9A1 is a great engine, the 991 is a light-years-ahead chassis/platform and anyone "hating on it" is simply just jealous they don't have one or are old farts hating on evolution, progress, new technology. Don't get me wrong I wish the car was lighter and didn't have so many creature comforts and e-nannies. Just because you love the Mezger/gear rowing dinosaur, doesn't mean you can't appreciate, respect, and like the 991 GT cars or vice versa. The 991 GT3RS is faster in every aspect, and has a TON of potential to be even faster. We "discovered/realized" some of that potential already for some of our clients. The things I continue to wish for are lighter weight and more naturally aspirated torque
(I'm not holding my breath).
01-10-2016, 05:37 PM
#55
The racing heritage just adds to the feel good value of a car you own. Not really important. What's important is if I like the car or not.
Personally, performance is important when I'm shopping for a new $150-200k dollar car GT car.
If the next gen GT car happens to be turbo and 10 gear automatic BUT delivers the driving experience, sound and feel of a N/A engine I will applaud and buy. If it's laggy and doesn't sound and feel the way I like I'll pass. Even if it says Porsche on the back.
Personally, performance is important when I'm shopping for a new $150-200k dollar car GT car.
If the next gen GT car happens to be turbo and 10 gear automatic BUT delivers the driving experience, sound and feel of a N/A engine I will applaud and buy. If it's laggy and doesn't sound and feel the way I like I'll pass. Even if it says Porsche on the back.
01-10-2016, 05:48 PM
#56
The Rebel
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The racing heritage just adds to the feel good value of a car you own. Not really important. What's important is if I like the car or not.
Personally, performance is important when I'm shopping for a new $150-200k dollar car GT car.
If the next gen GT car happens to be turbo and 10 gear automatic BUT delivers the driving experience, sound and feel of a N/A engine I will applaud and buy. If it's laggy and doesn't sound and feel the way I like I'll pass. Even if it says Porsche on the back.
Personally, performance is important when I'm shopping for a new $150-200k dollar car GT car.
If the next gen GT car happens to be turbo and 10 gear automatic BUT delivers the driving experience, sound and feel of a N/A engine I will applaud and buy. If it's laggy and doesn't sound and feel the way I like I'll pass. Even if it says Porsche on the back.
01-10-2016, 10:36 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Quoted to show your immaturity level as well. Your obviously lacking in a few areas. Good luck in life...
Explain M97 relation with Mezger to poor people Mr. Genius because apparently Mezger himself is still laughing but he might need more to keep laughing oh yes don t forget everything to push the 997 price bubble further FYI a 9a1 or an M97 are Porsche products as any other no more no less Poser Discussion eventually if 9A1 engineering wise is better or not Any opinion?
01-11-2016, 12:05 AM
#58
Burning Brakes
Forgive the Double Post, but with all the hand-wringing going on for so long, I want to make sure
EVERYONE gets the message and understands Porsche has done a fantastic job, and we, by doing more track testing than probably every preceding Porsche Race Engine, have honed the 9A1 to near perfection. And our little GT4 Siblings are also on the road to a Great Racing Season in the Continental Challenge.
Take a well-earned bow guys!
Latest Autoweek Report looks pretty good for the new GT3R. With over 2,000 Beta Testers (us-LOL), my guess is the newest versions of the 9A1 Direct Injection Engine will be a highly reliable Race Engine.
Kudos to our Leh Keen and Alex Job Racing for posting the Fastest GTD Class Practice Lap Times
in the new Porsche GT3R!!!!!!! Full Last Roar Practice Session Lap-times posted by Autoweek Below.
"Here are the top times posted during the Roar in the other three WeatherTech Championship classes:
GT Daytona Prototype Challenge: 1:42.118/125.502 mph, Jack Hawksworth, No. 8 ORECA FLM09
GT Le Mans: 1:45.088/121.955, Lucas Luhr, No. 100 BMW F13
GT Daytona: 1:47.852/118.830, Leh Keen, No. 22 Porsche GT3 R
Also practicing during the Roar weekend were teams entered in the season-opening race for the IMSA Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge, the BMW Performance 200 set for Jan. 29 at DIS. The weekend’s best laps in that production-based series belonged to the No. 33 CJ Wilson Racing Porsche Cayman GT4 in the Grand Sport Class (1:57.430); and the No. 56 Murillo Racing Porsche Cayman in the Street Tuner class (2:05.688)."
FMI:
http://autoweek.com/article/imsa/roa...wracingweekend
EVERYONE gets the message and understands Porsche has done a fantastic job, and we, by doing more track testing than probably every preceding Porsche Race Engine, have honed the 9A1 to near perfection. And our little GT4 Siblings are also on the road to a Great Racing Season in the Continental Challenge.
Take a well-earned bow guys!
Latest Autoweek Report looks pretty good for the new GT3R. With over 2,000 Beta Testers (us-LOL), my guess is the newest versions of the 9A1 Direct Injection Engine will be a highly reliable Race Engine.
Kudos to our Leh Keen and Alex Job Racing for posting the Fastest GTD Class Practice Lap Times
in the new Porsche GT3R!!!!!!! Full Last Roar Practice Session Lap-times posted by Autoweek Below.
"Here are the top times posted during the Roar in the other three WeatherTech Championship classes:
GT Daytona Prototype Challenge: 1:42.118/125.502 mph, Jack Hawksworth, No. 8 ORECA FLM09
GT Le Mans: 1:45.088/121.955, Lucas Luhr, No. 100 BMW F13
GT Daytona: 1:47.852/118.830, Leh Keen, No. 22 Porsche GT3 R
Also practicing during the Roar weekend were teams entered in the season-opening race for the IMSA Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge, the BMW Performance 200 set for Jan. 29 at DIS. The weekend’s best laps in that production-based series belonged to the No. 33 CJ Wilson Racing Porsche Cayman GT4 in the Grand Sport Class (1:57.430); and the No. 56 Murillo Racing Porsche Cayman in the Street Tuner class (2:05.688)."
FMI:
http://autoweek.com/article/imsa/roa...wracingweekend
01-11-2016, 12:46 AM
#59
GT3 player par excellence
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just get out and drive.
