997xpress

Totally agree. Been driving a volt for the past 4 years. Perfect for commuting in Bay Area.

Archimedes

Same here. I really hope they don't tone down the styling in production. This car is so much better looking than a dowdy Model S, though I'm guessing it'll likely be $150k+.

SamFromTX

#2 on my dealer's list

They are targeting Tesla as competition so I am suspecting 30-40K over Tesla. I would have guessed $20-30K over but Tesla reportedly loses on each model S, which Porsche won't do, I think.

Pokerhobo

Tesla doesn't lose money on each Model S, they are just aggressively spending on the Gigafactory and the analysts simply divide the operating expenses by the revenue and conclude the $$$ "loss" per Model S. Tesla's gross profit margin is currently around 25%.

SamFromTX

Good to know. I sold all my Tesla stock at $34 back then, one of my dumbest moves ever.

Archimedes

You know that gross profit margin isn't actual operating profit right? And that even operating profit isn't cash on cash return, i.e., actually making real money, right? Tesla has never made a dollar of actual positive net cash return on anything, even when you include all the cash they got in the form of tax breaks and carbon credits.

GreenLantern

+1

I'd also do it harder if it was a 2-door sports car.

That's where Tesla has yet to grab me (the ancient Tesla Roadster doesn't count).

Zulu Alpha

Yeah, not a fan of the Electrotus either.

mgent

How do these superchargers actually work - can only Tesla's 'recharge' at tesla stations? I thought I read that recharging your Tesla was free, and other brand owners would be charged, but it wasn't a huge amount... I imagine that all/most electric cars use the same or similar chargers? It wouldn't make a ton of sense for each to be unique, and not standardized... Each of these brands (Tesla, Porsche/Audi, BMW, Toyota, etc) all want eCars to dramatically expand as a whole, and forcing unique charging stations will just slow the adoption curve...

Pokerhobo

None of what you say is new and none of it is counter to what I said. I'm just correcting an incorrect statement that Tesla loses money on each sale of a Model S which implies that the more they sell, the more they lose which is actually the opposite.

daveo4porsche

mgent your question is reasonable

Unfortunately charging an EV is no where near as standardized as it should be, nor as much as it will need to be for EV's to become truly universal and practical. The standards also vary by region with Europe having different charging adapters than the US/north america.

However I have driven a Tesla Model S for over 3 years and believe I understand EV charging pretty well.

The 1st thing to understand is that for the vast majority of usage the Superchargers of any kind play _NO_ role in most people's daily life.

You simply charge the car overnight in your garage and leave with a full battery every morning - or if you're lucky you also charge at work (not necessary but a nice perk if you can get it).

With over 200 miles of range daily with a 60-90 kilowatt hour battery (the range of Tesla battery capacity) - you typically drive all day - and charge at night in your garage. As long as your car is parked for 4-6 hours the average home 240v/40 AMP (this is a typical home water heater, electric dryer, or air-conditioning style load) plug is more than enough to cover most people's daily usage (less than 100 miles) If you drive more than 100 miles a day then you simply get to get a higher capacity charger at 240v/60-100 AMP - which means you could charge a full 90 kWh in less than 7 hours.

I haven't been to a gas station for 3 years and don't miss them a bit. A "limited" range of 240 miles a day doesn't matter if the car leaves the garage full every day.

For this type of home based charging there are two main standards. The Tesla connector, and the J-1772 connection (found on all EV's - Porsche, Mercedes, Volts', Prius, Leaf's, ect.) These type of chargers are found in public and range from 240v/8 AMP to 240v/70 AMP (rare) - the most typical public chargers are 200v/30 AMP - and can charge the car at a rate of 18 miles of driving range per hour of charge. Again with a 240 mile daily range on a Tesla (or porsche product) most people daily usage will be covered by charge at home scenarios.

Tesla ships with a a J-1772 connector and can charge at all public charging stations. Most other cars in the US can also use J-1772 connectors.

http://shop.teslamotors.com/collecti...ucts/sae-j1772

The problem with all of these chargers is that even the best case charging in the wild would take several hours to charge an EV (240v @ 80 AMPs) would be 5-6 hours of charge for 240 miles of range, not a problem for overnight, but hardly practical for the road Trip to vegas…

I encourage the reader to remember that from my personal experience and vast quantities of data 100 miles or less is the daily usage of the majority of automobiles - this type of usage is easily covered in less than 2 hours of nightly charging on a home AC circuit. Do no focus on the worse case scenario of actually having an empty battery on a daily basis - I rarely use more than 15% of my battery capacity in my daily SF bay area commute and my charge at night is less than 45 min of charge nightly (240v @ 48 amps)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Enter the supercharger…or how does one road trip in their car 3 times a year
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While the maximum charge wattage of an Electric AC charger is typically 20,000 watts (240 volts * 80 AMP = 19,200 watts)

the maximum wattage of a Tesla Supercharger is DC (direct current) 400 volts * 400 AMPs = 160,000 watts - these are commercial grade installation installed in key locations on major highways to enable reasonable long distance driving

https://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger

it turns out the math is simple - if you want to restore 80 kilo-watt hours of capacity you only need to charge at 160,000 watts for 30 min - that will yield 80 kWh of charge...so the superchargers can charge your car in 30 min…ideally.

It turns out however there are some practical limits of today's lithium Ion batteries in that they can not absorb 160,000 watts continuously - if you pump that much juice in on a continuous basis - the batteries will last less than a year in normal use and lose range during the process

so you end up having to taper the charge - and only when the battery is close to empty can it handle a full 160,000 watts - and once it starts to fill up you ramp down the charge rate to avoid over taxing the battery chemistry.

I've sat and watched my Tesla battery charge at a supercharger -it typically starts out at 400 volts and 350 amps - and by the end of the charge session we're down to 400 volts and 10 amps (if I sit there and let it "top-off" the battery). Tesla software controls the AMP tapering for the charge.

So for real world usage a Tesla Supercharger ends up being able to fully charge an empty battery in 40 minutes or less. Basically you get half of a batteries charge every 20 min. The average stop at a supercharger is like 20 min, with worse case being 60 min - not ideal but it can be acceptable as long as you know it's coming.

It turns out however that if you focus on filling up a car each time at a supercharger - you will wait a very long time and go nuts, however if you simply get enough juice to get to the next supercharger you can hop from super charger to supercharger with 20-30 min stops. Tesla has built out the supercharger network to not require max range to get from point to point - but rather 50-70% range. In my actually usage in the past 3 years with road trips all up and down the west coast - it is slower than a gas stop but not by very much - and if I relax, breath and take a moment, a bath room break, a snack stop , and a leg stretching makes the charging time acceptable - and if you also consider that you don't actually road trip that much - it's really not that big of a deal.

And then you remind yourself the charge is free - and you feel better.

the current super charger map is also follows:

http://supercharge.info

you can get most anywhere you want to go today - with a modest amount of planning. But it is not yet nirvana.

The basic recipe is as follows for a road trip.

Plan your supercharger stops daily (2-3 stops is 600-700 miles of daily travel) - find a hotel that will let you charge over night (it's not as hard as it seems) So you hop from supercharger to supercharger during the day, charge overnight at a hotel with a 240v charger (probably a j-1772) - waking up the next morning back into the supercharger hopping. The tesla's built-in navigation software will route you via superchargers to reach your destination and included estimated charge times at each stop - so the car will plan your driving/charging for you.

Example:
SF to yosemite
1 supercharger stop in Manteca, CA, and then charge overnight in the park at any of multiple EV charging stations in the park (some J-1772 and some tesla 80 AMP chargers)
https://my.teslamotors.com/forum/for...osemite-valley

Superchargers are "free" to all Tesla owners for the life of the car. Tesla has indicated they are open to letting other's use their supercharger network but we are a long way from that and we'll have to see if anything actually shakes out. It would be useful if Porsche simply agreed to use Tesla's supercharging network and they would start day one with over 562 charging locations and 3223 actual chargers in the US/Canada and many in europe.

However porsche has claimed 15 min charge times, and they can handle 800 volts instead of 400 volts - we'll have to see how those details shake out- with the increase in voltage a Porsche supercharger would be better than Tesla's, but it would be beneficial if both cars could use each other's networks.

Porsche could use Tesla's network, but it would be slower than a porche charger, but acceptable. And a porsche charger could/should be able to charge a tesla simply by down grading to 400 volts - and then both manufactures win.

Tesla already does something similar with Nissa's quick charge port (also known as chadmeo). They are basically the same as Tesla's superchargers but are 50,000 watt instead of 160,000 watts - but Tesla sells an adapter:

http://shop.teslamotors.com/collecti...hademo-adapter

and you can then use Nissan Chadmeo chargers along with everything else.

Tesla's strategy is to charge anywhere from anything - so there are adapters for MOST charging systems. The car comes with some - and you can build/buy other adapters based on what types of charging infrastructure you plan to encounter.

Basically if you can find a plug - you can charge your tesla.

Superchargers are also placed in locations with amenities, food, bath rooms, and places you wouldn't mind hanging out for 20 min while you charge your car.

I believe it would be a disaster for the future EV's for multiple competing supercharger networks to spring up - and it would be best if the manufactures could agree on and use each other's networks.

It's a business problem, not a technical one.

What I've learned in 3 years.

a. I don't actually take that many road trips - but when I do the supercharger network works very well and it's free and reasonably fast.
b. I don't miss going to gas stations
c. for daily use my overnight charging in my garage is awesome
d. my electric bill is about 1/3 of my gas bill for the same miles driven
e. you can honestly charge most anywhere - turns out there are 240v/40 AMP plugs all over the US in the form of RV hookups and if you learn to look around
f. even if you do run a battery dry, you don't need to fully charge it - you only need to charge enough to get the closest supercharger
g. we are far from ideal - but it is getting better year by year
h. the tesla supercharger network isn't finished yet and it getting more chargers at more locations every month - so it's only getting better

there are other standards and possible other ways to go - so we'll have to see how it shakes out. But in over 50,000 miles of EV driving for my personal use I've found both daily usage and long distance usage to be mostly a non-issue but I don't think we're ready for prime time. It's getting better each month and more manufactures hopping on the EV band wagon will not hurt matters....

I'm happy to answer any additional questions, or if you are ever in Norcal and come to a PCA golden gate region event - you'll find me there flogging my 2015 991 Cupcar and charging my tesla at the RV hook ups found at most race tracks - and blowing people's mind with the Tesla's acceleration and general capabilities as a car. Guess which car is the fastest one in the paddock - hint it's not my 991 cup car…

daveo4porsche

the rough math for EV is a mystery to most car people - so here is what i have learned - my apologies if no one cares - but this is physics and math - so this should carry of the future EV porsches in your lives.

for most EV's you can estimate range as follows:

batteries are measured in kWh - Kilowatt Hours
1 kWH = 1,000 watt hours

most EV cars use 300 watt-hour per mile driven (it can be as low as 200 and and high as infinity depending on how your drive, but 300 is a good common number)

so 1 kWH of battery capacity = approximately 3 miles of driving range

let's see how this math shake out

Leaf has a 24 kWh battery - 3 miles per kWh = 24 * 3 = 72 miles - Nissan claims 70-90 - so we're in the ball park
Volt has a 8 kWh battery - 3 miles per kWh = 8 * 3 = 24 miles - Chevy claims 30 miles of no-gas use if your battery is full - again ball park
Tesla P90D = 90 kWh battery - 3 miles per kWh = 90 * 3 = 270 miles - Tesla claims 250 miles - I'm comfortable driving my 240 miles between superchargers

The laws of physics make so that 300 watt hours/mile is about the physics to move something as heavy as a car - so I don't see this basic rule changing anytime in the future.

So as a rule of thumb - 300 watt hours for each mile is a good place to start your estimates

Charging time is also easy (in my opinion) once you understand it.

CHARGING_WATTS are simple - VOLTS * AMPS = WATTS

240 volts * 30 AMPS = 7,200 watts - apply this much current for 1 hour and you get 7,200 watt hours - or 7.2 kilowatt hours
(240 volt w/30 AMPS is a typical water heater installation)

charging time is BATTERY_CAPACITY / CHARGING_WATTS + fudge factor - round up.

90 kWh / 7.2 kWH = 12.5 hours to fully charge a Tesla P90D from zero battery.

the conversion from AC to DC is a 10% loss scenario - so I round up and would state fully charging a P90D on a 30 amp circuit would take 13-14 hours daily - if this was your daily usage I would suggest a 40-60 AMP charging circuit which would cut your daily full charge down to 6-8 hours. Again that assumes you are driving 240 miles a day which is not very typical.

You can estimate miles per gallon using the rough math of 33 kWh in a 1 gallon of gas

EV cars are about 90 miles to the gallon
ICE (internal combustion engin) cars are about 25 miles to the gallon

EV's are 90% efficient
ICE's are 25% efficient (75% of the explosions energy is lost to heat - 25% is converted to motion/miles)

So a 90 kWH battery is about the same as 2.72 gallons of gas - and you can drive ~240 miles on the 2.72 gallons of energy - or 88 miles to the gallon - give or take.

The ICE to go 240 miles would use 9.6 gallons of gas = or 316.8 kWH of energy - the kWh used per mile is 316.8 kWh - or 1.32 kWh per mile
1.32 kWh * .25 (the efficiency of a ICE engine) = 330 watt hours / mile - that is the newtonian physics to move 4000 lbs. but the ICE use 990 watt hours in heat/loss per mile.

9.6 gallons of gas at $2.40 gallon = $23.04 to drive 240 miles
99 kWH (10% loss during charging) * $0.12 per kWh = $11.88 to drive 240 miles
NOTE: this math gets way better in favor of the EV once gas starts trending back higher - I don't believe anyone thinks $2.xx gas/gallon is here to stay

150 kWh would equal about 450 miles of range for a typical EV - and we're already at 90 kWH batteries in mass production - we're getting 7% a year increase in battery chemistry efficiently - so we're only a few years off from a 450 mile EV which will match the typical range of most ICE cars.

again apologies if no one cares - but I was a ICE guy before I was an ICE + EV guy and the EV stuff was a mystery to me - but this is now my cheat sheet and it works most of the time for rough estimates.

Archimedes

But my point is that they have actually lost money on every single Model S they've sold. The development, manufacturing, sales and G&A costs associated with the car has exceeded the cash received, even if you add in all the nonsense carbon stuff. Saying they're not losing money on the cars because the sale price exceeds current production cost is very misleading. Tesla's entire business model is predicated on using OPM (including taxpayer money) to fund a massive gamble on the ability to deliver a low priced electric car for the masses someday. Elon Musk isn't much more than a modern day Mr. Haney.

Drifting

Daveo4porsche

Appreciate the real world insight into living with a Tesla model S both for commuting and for long trips. The power and charging explanation is also helpful.

In particular it is great to hear this from a dedicated racer. I've been telling my friends that you can have your cake and eat it to, by daily driving a Tesla and racing a GT variant.

You still have more patience than me when it comes to long trips and charging. Plus I really enjoy my GT3 on trips with fun roads along the way. It's the commuting/errands where the GT3 is such a waste, and the Tesla sounds perfect.