Electric GT3?
09-29-2015, 01:10 PM
#46
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I believe that electric hybrid boost is definitely in the future of the GT3. I find it rather odd and amusing that no one seems to remember (conveniently) that Porsche has already built a hybrid GT3 ... this will be a model for future generations:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...3-r-hybrid-20/
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...3-r-hybrid-20/
09-29-2015, 02:42 PM
#47
I believe that electric hybrid boost is definitely in the future of the GT3. I find it rather odd and amusing that no one seems to remember (conveniently) that Porsche has already built a hybrid GT3 ... this will be a model for future generations:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...3-r-hybrid-20/
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...3-r-hybrid-20/
09-29-2015, 03:16 PM
#48
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Alexandrius, you make good points about Tesla's long-term viability being unknown, so anyone buying today must be considered an early adopter. As far as the car, I like it a lot, and find it to have a good balance of performance and comfort, though I agree that the practical constraints are an issue. As I said before, I don't view it as being a track car, just as a Panamera isn't a track car.
Hybrid looks appealing for a track car. I wouldn't mind getting a lot of 918 tech in a 911 at a fraction of the cost.
Hybrid looks appealing for a track car. I wouldn't mind getting a lot of 918 tech in a 911 at a fraction of the cost.
09-29-2015, 04:40 PM
#49
I have driven a Tesla P90D in "insane" mode on a closed course, HARD. For 120k you get a one trick pony; not comfortable enough for a luxury car, and not fast enough for a true sports car (aside from 0-60).
Was I impressed wit the 0-60 times? Sure. Do I think electric is the future? Sure, it is a possibility. But not with today's technology. If any of you have ever owned a Laptop for an extended period of time, the batteries have a finite life. Charge cycles, heat, and alot of other factors contribute to this.
What happens when these batteries need replacement? The things cost like 40k. How is that sustainable? I mean, I know Porsche replaced all the 991 gt3 engines but damn....
If you buy this car, or basically the TSLA hype, please tell me how the "gigafactory" (completely hyped name for a battery factory) is going to make $40k electric laptop batteries feasible from a business standpoint? So TSLA is prepared to replace everyone's batteries when they realize it makes a fraction of the range it used to?
Unless there is a REAL quantum leap in battery technology, this just won't be the future. It was a good strike at it, but the ICE just offers way too many advantages.
Electric has a few advantages: 1. no transmission, 2. Simple motors, 3. "quiet" for those that like that
Disadvantages: Much slower than competition both on track (extremely heavy battery) and on fast road driving. Range will dissipate. Battery will definitely need replacement, while many ICE cars can go a million miles/decades of driving on one engine and transmission. And finally...road trips and commercial use. Getting gas and tossing it into an engine takes a few minutes max. It doesn't have a degrading range and it offers immense power. I drive from Austin to Houston and back some days, while driving all around Houston, and there is just no way a TSLA could do that practically.
It is a plaything for people to show their friends their impractical 3rd,4th,5th car.
Am I burying my head in the sand, lamenting the progression of technology? No; it's a bunch of laptop batteries and an RC motor with cool words like "ludicrous mode". I don't know how other people don't see that. Elon Musk just managed to hype it EXTREMELY well. But, if there is some quantum leap i'm all ears. It just is not there yet to be considered "the future." Somewhat comfortable replacement for the around town car for people with enough money to not worry about practicality? Sure I will give it that. If anyone can explain how economies of scale are going to allow the gigafactory and elon to sell their "cheap" Tesla for 30k please enlighten me. Perhaps one day he will actually make money on the Model S cars they are selling and not just on the stock they are pushing/subsidies they are receiving.
Was I impressed wit the 0-60 times? Sure. Do I think electric is the future? Sure, it is a possibility. But not with today's technology. If any of you have ever owned a Laptop for an extended period of time, the batteries have a finite life. Charge cycles, heat, and alot of other factors contribute to this.
What happens when these batteries need replacement? The things cost like 40k. How is that sustainable? I mean, I know Porsche replaced all the 991 gt3 engines but damn....
If you buy this car, or basically the TSLA hype, please tell me how the "gigafactory" (completely hyped name for a battery factory) is going to make $40k electric laptop batteries feasible from a business standpoint? So TSLA is prepared to replace everyone's batteries when they realize it makes a fraction of the range it used to?
Unless there is a REAL quantum leap in battery technology, this just won't be the future. It was a good strike at it, but the ICE just offers way too many advantages.
Electric has a few advantages: 1. no transmission, 2. Simple motors, 3. "quiet" for those that like that
Disadvantages: Much slower than competition both on track (extremely heavy battery) and on fast road driving. Range will dissipate. Battery will definitely need replacement, while many ICE cars can go a million miles/decades of driving on one engine and transmission. And finally...road trips and commercial use. Getting gas and tossing it into an engine takes a few minutes max. It doesn't have a degrading range and it offers immense power. I drive from Austin to Houston and back some days, while driving all around Houston, and there is just no way a TSLA could do that practically.
It is a plaything for people to show their friends their impractical 3rd,4th,5th car.
Am I burying my head in the sand, lamenting the progression of technology? No; it's a bunch of laptop batteries and an RC motor with cool words like "ludicrous mode". I don't know how other people don't see that. Elon Musk just managed to hype it EXTREMELY well. But, if there is some quantum leap i'm all ears. It just is not there yet to be considered "the future." Somewhat comfortable replacement for the around town car for people with enough money to not worry about practicality? Sure I will give it that. If anyone can explain how economies of scale are going to allow the gigafactory and elon to sell their "cheap" Tesla for 30k please enlighten me. Perhaps one day he will actually make money on the Model S cars they are selling and not just on the stock they are pushing/subsidies they are receiving.
Nice to see someone else sees the hype. Zero emissions?
09-29-2015, 05:09 PM
#50
Exactly. Subsidies keep these things alive when in reality the carbon footprint overall is a farce. They are hoping the ends justify the means; that the system becomes efficient enough and that we somehow learn to produce massive amounts of electricity without emitting co2.
I have a family friend who was explaining to me in great detail that the gov. has been very free with subsidies for basically anything that can make a case for why it's good for the environment. He built a business model to basically take advantage of that. So yea kind of annoying to see him and realize how much of that is out there. I wonder if any changes come how that will affect companies like tesla.
I have a family friend who was explaining to me in great detail that the gov. has been very free with subsidies for basically anything that can make a case for why it's good for the environment. He built a business model to basically take advantage of that. So yea kind of annoying to see him and realize how much of that is out there. I wonder if any changes come how that will affect companies like tesla.
09-29-2015, 05:41 PM
#52
I'm not out to dislike Tesla but try to stay away from anything built on a lie or version of the truth. It's like no one ever took physic's or forgot the basics that it takes energy to move anything, period. Whether it be in British thermal units or Joules it all adds up. Takes energy to construct, maintain, and power if meant to keep an object in motion. Where it comes from has an effect on the ecology. The question is how much and is it controllable.
Technology will continue to advance and efficacy will improve on all fronts but I will never believe anyone can get more than 100% out of anything. You can't produce a spit wad without an expenditure of energy which has a carbon foot print so when I see a new plate on a Tesla advertising Zero emissions I feel its an attach on my intelligence, or what every I have?
Technology will continue to advance and efficacy will improve on all fronts but I will never believe anyone can get more than 100% out of anything. You can't produce a spit wad without an expenditure of energy which has a carbon foot print so when I see a new plate on a Tesla advertising Zero emissions I feel its an attach on my intelligence, or what every I have?
09-29-2015, 05:52 PM
#53
Do I think electric is the future? Sure, it is a possibility. But not with today's technology. If any of you have ever owned a Laptop for an extended period of time, the batteries have a finite life. Charge cycles, heat, and alot of other factors contribute to this.
What happens when these batteries need replacement? The things cost like 40k. How is that sustainable?
What happens when these batteries need replacement? The things cost like 40k. How is that sustainable?
Tesla provides an eight year, unlimited mile warranty on their battery. Current pack prices are ~$25k. However Tesla's economics still look good: given the likely prices for batteries when a warranty would need to be cashed in (closer to $10k) one doubts the Model S could have depreciation as steep as competitors (check an S Class) even when batteries eventually start failing out of warranty.
There is no question in my mind that the next generation on electrics and hybrids will be extremely capable technically. My argument isn't with the technology, it's with the feel. For 90% of cars electrics and hybrids will be great- more efficient, quieter, more comfortable, etc. For a GT3, however, who cares? It's completely the wrong fit IMHO. Let the Turbo ad the rest of the line go hybrid, keep the GT3 NA for as long as humanly possible.
09-29-2015, 05:57 PM
#54
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Lot of general statements about environmental benefits, or lack thereof, of electric cars. I haven't looked into it and don't know the answer. But any claims either way need to be backed by credible quantitative scientific/engineering analysis.
My OP was limited to the experience of driving an electric car (P90D), and the implications for the GT3, independent of environmental considerations.
My OP was limited to the experience of driving an electric car (P90D), and the implications for the GT3, independent of environmental considerations.
09-29-2015, 06:03 PM
#55
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Sounds reasonable to me. Pete, must say that I've found every RL post you've written to be well worth reading.
09-29-2015, 06:04 PM
#56
A modern combined cycle powerplant, on the other hand, operates above 50%, the best at 60% efficiency, thermal to electricity. You lose some of this energy in the grid, lose more in the batteries, etc, but with electric motors over 90% efficient the vast majority makes it to the wheels of a car, and some of that energy used to move the car forwards can also be recovered in braking. Thus a Tesla can be use close to 50% of the energy burned in fuel to move the car forwards even if it's run on fossil fuels, while an average car actually makes use of more like 10% of a higher quality fuel (gasoline). Thus there's a real ~4x difference in efficiency.
The embodied energy required to build one is a good and valid question, but electrics and hybrids do use significantly less energy when in use.
Thanks for that, appreciate it.
09-29-2015, 06:07 PM
#57
My GT3 has a lot of electronics and update tech. however I bought the car for the feel and satisfaction of the build quality.
All I can say for sure is that I am extremely happy with my purchase.
All I can say for sure is that I am extremely happy with my purchase.
09-29-2015, 06:09 PM
#58
Three Wheelin'
I believe that electric hybrid boost is definitely in the future of the GT3. I find it rather odd and amusing that no one seems to remember (conveniently) that Porsche has already built a hybrid GT3 ... this will be a model for future generations:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...3-r-hybrid-20/
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...3-r-hybrid-20/
Without discussing the difference between NA/hybrid electric and pure electric, there's a place for hybrid technology in the 918. There's a place for pure electric in the Mission E. And, it looks like, from the article you kindly posted, that there maybe place for a hybrid GT3. One I'd rather not see.
What I'm curious about and, far more interested in, is the Mission E. I think Alexandrius's libertarian contextualized viewpoint regarding government subsidies of electric vehicles, something I view dimly as our paying for unproven technology, is a great point. Frankly, I just like the styling of the Mission E. But, we have 120v/240v homes. A 800v vehicle would require a charging station with a capacitor that I'd expect would be very expensive. That "15 minute charge time" wont be available everywhere.
Still, the Mission E is a pretty car and that's what I would buy if I were going electric. But, I would not want that car to be a GT3. I have a GT3, it runs on gas and I hope they all do for the future. If they have to go hybrid, I suppose we'll have to live with that but I for one wont like it and, I probably would not buy it unless it was effectively comparable to a 918. For example, I just bought a 2014 Cayenne GTS last week with a NA V8 and no turbo. I expressly did not buy the 2015 Cayenne GTS turbo or a Cayenne Hybrid.
As for a pure electric GT3 - well, in my mind, that is no longer a GT3. I don't know what that is, but it's not a GT3.
Dan (is stubborn)
09-29-2015, 06:10 PM
#59
Lot of general statements about environmental benefits, or lack thereof, of electric cars. I haven't looked into it and don't know the answer. But any claims either way need to be backed by credible quantitative scientific/engineering analysis.
My OP was limited to the experience of driving an electric car (P90D), and the implications for the GT3, independent of environmental considerations.
My OP was limited to the experience of driving an electric car (P90D), and the implications for the GT3, independent of environmental considerations.
09-29-2015, 06:18 PM
#60
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