Frustration with porsche
09-03-2015, 11:15 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
To the OP.
With the halo cars like a GT3, you have to prepared to shop other dealers. My local dealer has a GT3 list like your. I called around and I'm #2 for the 991.2 GT3 at a dealership two hours away.
With the halo cars like a GT3, you have to prepared to shop other dealers. My local dealer has a GT3 list like your. I called around and I'm #2 for the 991.2 GT3 at a dealership two hours away.
09-03-2015, 11:20 PM
#17
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
couple spot on posts here...what is frustrating is that they set the price of the GT cars too low, make them in too low of numbers, so if you are a lucky lottery winner and get an allocation, you can go drive it for a year or so for free, then sell it to someone that didn't get an allocation, and you just drove a Porsche GT for free... then you get on the list for another one and repeat. Its pretty silly. Why wouldn't Porsche instead charge more for their GT cars in MSRP, fix the supply /demand curve to achieve equilibrium, and stop all this weird side market eBay like activity with dealers, buyers, etc. A certain dealer that will go unnamed (not mine) told me they had a 16 GT3 allocation. They wanted me to basically buy the car and trade it right back to them to get an RS allocation. They said the reason they do this is Porsche frowns on the over-MSRP thing but once the car is used/certified inventory, they don't have as much an issue with pricing to market.
Bottom line, by having deflated GT prices, Porsche creates all kinds of silliness in the near/after market. I am not just itching to pay more money. But honestly, based on what has happened in the market, you don't have to be a pricing expert to see that GT3s and especially RS cars were underpriced and under manufactured relative to market.
Bottom line, by having deflated GT prices, Porsche creates all kinds of silliness in the near/after market. I am not just itching to pay more money. But honestly, based on what has happened in the market, you don't have to be a pricing expert to see that GT3s and especially RS cars were underpriced and under manufactured relative to market.
It's slick corporate finance 101.
Instead of giving dealers "trunk money" which shows on the corporate balance sheets, Porsche AG can simply dole out GT3 allocations to high performing or favored dealers and look the other way when the dealers markup the cars.
This way, Porsche AG's balance sheet looks clean (good for the stock), and the dealers still get their trunk money to cover their losses on slower moving on-the-lot cars.
Win-win.
09-03-2015, 11:27 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
Actually, it's not silly.
It's slick corporate finance 101.
Instead of giving dealers "trunk money" which shows on the corporate balance sheets, Porsche AG can simply dole out GT3 allocations to high performing or favored dealers and look the other way when the dealers markup the cars.
This way, Porsche AG's balance sheet looks clean (good for the stock), and the dealers still get their trunk money to cover their losses on slower moving on-the-lot cars.
Win-win.
It's slick corporate finance 101.
Instead of giving dealers "trunk money" which shows on the corporate balance sheets, Porsche AG can simply dole out GT3 allocations to high performing or favored dealers and look the other way when the dealers markup the cars.
This way, Porsche AG's balance sheet looks clean (good for the stock), and the dealers still get their trunk money to cover their losses on slower moving on-the-lot cars.
Win-win.
I bet they could raise the price 10-15% above what it is now and still sell 10-15% more than they are making. Why wouldn't they do that? What is the corp fin 101 there? I get the lack of trunk money aspect. But why would Porsche let dealers and private owners take all the profit for the fact these are trading so much higher than market? Obviously its just an opinion. But my view is that the cars are underpriced to market and that Porsche is leaving $ on the table. I'm happy about that with my MSRP GT3s, and I will be happy with my MSRP RS if I get one. But I still say that its silly that we are all driving these cars for a year and selling them back at MSRP and that people are paying $20k-150k premiums above MSRP for them new.
Admittedly I am a couple glasses of vino into the night, so maybe just not thinking clearly
09-04-2015, 01:52 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
to me this is a very important point
all these discussions must be considered in light on the current economic/cyclical context - this is the wave we are ALL riding whether we like it or not
we are in year 6 of an economic expansion after what was almost a total economic collapse - easy money is the flavor of the hour at present - people live for the present more than ever, and few have long memories and a broad field of vision across economic cycles
rewind back to 2008-09 or to the last bust 1999-2000 porsche was almost out of business, and gt3 cars could not be given away
comments in this thread will look absurd in 2-3-4 years when this current bubble bursts
all these discussions must be considered in light on the current economic/cyclical context - this is the wave we are ALL riding whether we like it or not
we are in year 6 of an economic expansion after what was almost a total economic collapse - easy money is the flavor of the hour at present - people live for the present more than ever, and few have long memories and a broad field of vision across economic cycles
rewind back to 2008-09 or to the last bust 1999-2000 porsche was almost out of business, and gt3 cars could not be given away
comments in this thread will look absurd in 2-3-4 years when this current bubble bursts
09-04-2015, 03:29 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
but alot easier said than done in meaningful amounts (price changes are easier but changing production is hard/slow)
can u predict the next inflection point? i can't
much less have thousands of very capital intensive logistical and operational decisions through manufacturing planning and supplier management locked and loaded based on a discrete bet on the future?
one of the smartest people i have ever known would say - if i could accurately predict economic cycles and future interest rates, you would be here speaking to my chauffeur and i would be tanning on my private island in the south pacific
09-04-2015, 09:44 AM
#24
Nordschleife Master
Because GT3s are not money-makers for Porsche.
They never were.
They never will be.
They are halo cars.
They give "Porsche" a nice patina of uber cool.
Which makes people want to buy their SUVs.
Which keeps the company profitable.
Which allows the company to make more GT3 cars for us that are punch drunk on Porsche Kool-Aid.
They never were.
They never will be.
They are halo cars.
They give "Porsche" a nice patina of uber cool.
Which makes people want to buy their SUVs.
Which keeps the company profitable.
Which allows the company to make more GT3 cars for us that are punch drunk on Porsche Kool-Aid.
^^^BINGO
09-04-2015, 10:37 AM
#26
Just a game they are playing to keep demand up and hype. No need for marketing expense if they artificially create hype by slowly restricting the supply. Seems to be in previous years, just about everyone who wanted a model was able to purchase it in the end. This does not include numbered limited editions. I could be totally wrong though.
09-04-2015, 10:38 AM
#27
Nordschleife Master
yeah no doubt, in theory, and at the margin
but alot easier said than done in meaningful amounts (price changes are easier but changing production is hard/slow)
can u predict the next inflection point? i can't
much less have thousands of very capital intensive logistical and operational decisions through manufacturing planning and supplier management locked and loaded based on a discrete bet on the future?
one of the smartest people i have ever known would say - if i could accurately predict economic cycles and future interest rates, you would be here speaking to my chauffeur and i would be tanning on my private island in the south pacific
but alot easier said than done in meaningful amounts (price changes are easier but changing production is hard/slow)
can u predict the next inflection point? i can't
much less have thousands of very capital intensive logistical and operational decisions through manufacturing planning and supplier management locked and loaded based on a discrete bet on the future?
one of the smartest people i have ever known would say - if i could accurately predict economic cycles and future interest rates, you would be here speaking to my chauffeur and i would be tanning on my private island in the south pacific
I have a lot of clients with much more region/market-specific demand/price variability than Porsche does on GT cars. Its one thing to underprice but do a good job of forecasting demand, inventory requiremetns, etc. Its one thing to get price right but miss on demand. But to miss big on both? The economy is always going to have movement in it, but the buyers of $150k-200k toy cars have enough disposable wealth or cash flow that they are not as affected as the general population. I submit that on the GT models they are missing both demand and price by a wide enough margin that there is much room to correct it. Surgically? No of course not. But there is room. And back to the point of the thread, end some of this craziness with the dealers and they Porsche to get some of the profit that right now they have completely delegated to the dealer/private buyer market. Put differently, their MSRP is too low
09-04-2015, 03:29 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
I disagree - it is supply that continues to be too low. Pent-up demand with cheap money and the DJIA going from 11,000 to 17,000 during the years when no GT cars were available post-997, compounded by the 991GT3 naturally having a wider customer base due to PDK.
Sure, Porsche could have squelched demand by pricing the 991GT cars 20% higher. But these are not supposed to be halo cars or collectors items - that is the role of the 918, and the inevitable GT2 and 960 variants to come. The whole point of the GT3 and GT3RS is to take a pounding on the track, which is getting harder to justify with current supply and pricing trends.
Sure, Porsche could have squelched demand by pricing the 991GT cars 20% higher. But these are not supposed to be halo cars or collectors items - that is the role of the 918, and the inevitable GT2 and 960 variants to come. The whole point of the GT3 and GT3RS is to take a pounding on the track, which is getting harder to justify with current supply and pricing trends.
09-04-2015, 04:00 PM
#29
The majority of people wouldn't say a 150,000 car is a low price point, but yes it's a great car and a good value for an exotic car. I do have options though, and I'm starting to look at them.
09-04-2015, 04:05 PM
#30
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