hfm

Is he really promoting his website? He's mentioned it and stated its purpose to assist potential car buyers. But, I don't think he's suggested people go to his site, pay for anything on his site or advertise or promote commerce through his site.

I think he's just looking for content, and you're right, it's for his job and his business. Yes, he ultimately hopes to sell content and make a buck from the website. But, he's doing it indirectly by creating content after research from inquiries here. He's not doing it by asking people to buy anything from him or to come to his site to promote it or to sell something off of it.

Absent comment by a moderator, I'd say, he's on okay grounds, but that's just my opinion.

hfm

On December 3, 2014, I took delivery of a 2015 991 911 Porsche GT3 that was ordered in September 2014. I chose this car over an Mercedes SL AMG 63, over a 911 Turbo S and over a Nissan GT-R. Having driven sports cars my entire life, my decision was made after watching videos on YouTube from Chris Harris, Jethro Bovingdon and from Andreas Preuninger that confirmed this 911 was something very special, a once in a generation car similar in nature to a 73 Carerra RS.

The fact that it is normally aspirated and not a forced induction car was very important relative to other options. And, interior build quality over the Nissan was obvious. The only really comparable cars to the GT3 comes in the form of a Ferrari 458 and Mclaren 12C both costing more than double highlighting the value of the GT3. It's my weekend, special occasion car that I plan to enjoy for the rest of my life but it keeps creeping into weekday trips because it's too good not to enjoy more often.

Dan (doesn't expect to be printed but tosses out an opinion)

montoya

I disagree, as a business owner I respect the fact it's a struggle to get started, and free advertising or whatever you can do to get people in the door is necessary. However, you need to play by the rules and posting solicitations for content on another website when other editors from other journals (like Panorama and Pete Stout for example) do, strikes me as incorrect and an abuse of our forum rules. In my first post I was being nice, not elitist in advising him that he wouldn't get any PM's with only 1 post, he needed to register, but now I agree this is stretching the rules at best. It's interesting as well to see those coming in defense are also not Rennlist members. Not a judgement, just an interesting observation.

ATXGT3

Looks familiar:

http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...ar-review.html

hfm

Montoya, if you can find a way I can become a lifetime member, I'll happily consider signing up. And, there is no need to call what you've said an "observation" or "not a judgment." The inference is plain, you're suggesting "users" are free loaders. And, it's a comment made personally towards individual posters as much as you took personally someone calling you "elitist."

As for playing by the rules, they were posted, and I provided an analysis of why the rules were not broken. You're welcome to elaborate factually how, if at all, the rules were broken by OP instead of just saying the rules were stretched. Or, if you're inclined, PM a moderator and have this thread shut down, if they agree it's out of order, since you've taken quite an interest in it and have decided to police it on your own initiative.

montoya

No, I'm not taking anything personally here. It is a grey area as you pointed out, so that is why I might agree it is a stretch of the rules. I am not a judge of those rules anymore than anyone else. Now, IMHO, I do think that it is the right thing to do (register) if you are going to solicit members and that is just my opinion.

As to the other point- I guess I should have elaborated. The internet is a free medium for most things. This has brought a lot of change to media companies and revolutionized industries. For car enthusiasts, the biggest change has been the slow death of many of our favorite car magazines to the point where most of them are former shells of what they were. Now, I'm not a Luddite, but I do miss the great content that we all used to share. Now there is so much internet car stuff, that it's really hard to know what is quality and what isn't. At the same time there is so much more it's really great! But a lot of it really isn't sustainable and there is a long term struggle for survival for journalist and editors of all types. So, there are a few places that are sustainable, and this forum is one of them. The little that is asked for membership insures it's sustainability. When it comes to users my observation is that some people get that and right away become users. Others who grew up or don't really think about how things are paid on the web or don't get that there is some payment required somehow. I'm not saying you don't care or don't feel this website should get paid, it's just that so much is free it's really just a fact of life you don't worry about it. So, I link that with someone else setting up another free site- does that make sense? Not a judgement again, just two different camps of users on the web. Neither is right or wrong there are many ways to make money without subscriptions or memberships.

hfm

Just so you know, I agree with a lot of what you've said. I know you're intentions are good, that you're just trying to see this site be compensated because you consider it a worthwhile site. I agree, or I wouldn't be here. It's the best Porsche enthusiast site available.

That said, I still don't think OP broke the rules. If he did, the mods can certainly admonish him, lock the thread as needed. He did indicate any publication would include a referral to this thread and to this site so, he's offered some return gesture. If I thought he was selling something to us or using this site merely to promote himself, I'd have a different opinion. In fact, when I read straight-road's post and rule posting, my first thought was you and he were both right. Then, I looked at the rules closely and compared them to what OP wrote. And, I didn't see a breach. That again, is just my opinion.

I view this thread like most other threads on this forum, a useful, thoughtful and helpful one for enthusiasts like ourselves. It would be a shame to be shut down unnecessarily. But, if the mods/owners feel it should be, then, that's clearly their right to do so.

Regards,

Dan (knows Montoya is just looking out for Rennlist and that's all good)

Gravs

I'm a paid-up member but I have no idea why it costs money or where that money goes. There are loads of forum sites that are free. Plus if I don't pay I get adverts so why's that any worse than paying and then the site misses out on ad revenue?

Can anyone elaborate as to what I'm getting for my money?

montoya

One really nice benefit is the right to access member to member classifieds as well as to place any classified and then call attention to it in one of the forums. I've sold tons of stuff that way.

You also have a larger user box for PM's, at first I thought that was useless, but as time goes on, my user box is filling up!

Of course as mentioned, the right to receive PM's from post 1 on and no annoying adds in between postings.

Others can elaborate as to other benefits-

Oh yeah, a really cool sticker too!

WernerE

The 991 GT3 kicks *** and Corvettes suck...you can quote me. Werner.

bigkraig

Sticker? What sticker?

T-Mac

You the same Mike from Temecula that works out at 24 Hour? I have the 991 GT3...PM me.

hfm

Is listing a company name and website prohibited by forum rules? Does this mean someone cannot refer to any other website or company on this forum unless the owner of that site becomes a sponsor? I can't not say "GM" or "Corvette" or post a link to a GM website unless GM is a Rennlist sponsor? Should we stop posting YouTube links because YouTube and Google do not sponsor this site? Is it improper to post a link to PistonHeads, to 6SpeedOnline, Jalopnik, or to Road and Track because they don't sponsor this site? If the answer to these questions are yes, then your point about web clicks makes sense but, if not, then how is the value of the click relevant?

Does a person who is honest about what he wants instead of lying by saying "he's a freelance writer interested in a GT3 because he personally loves the car and wants to write about it" deserve to be punished for being truthful? And, be rewarded with being able to proceed had he gone about the matter deceitfully? Is that what the forum is attempting to foster? And, does any of that have anything to do with forum rules?

Does the fact that he's looking for content for multiple cars instead of just the GT3 matter to the subject of this discussion? How?

And, thanks for acknowledging users are not freeloaders. I like to think I saved a lot of forum members a lot of cash and helped a forum sponsor get a lot of business by posting a group buy. I like to think the last canyon run I posted about as well as future runs benefit Rennlist members and that I actively try to contribute to the forum. I like to think that I bring content to the forum by providing opinions, information, thought and perhaps some humor. You're right, users are the reason this forum exists and why it's worthwhile. And, if someone wants to become a member, that's great. If not, nothing wrong with that either.

hfm

Actually, I thought of that point as I was taking a nice walk. It's a good one, best I could think of as well to support your position.

There's two things to further think about. First, using that standard heads down the path of encouraging people to lie on the forum in order to circumvent the rules. It wouldn't have been hard for him to have posted something fabricated to avoid paying a vendor fee. And, actually, there's plenty of opinions posted without this thread. All he'd need to do is ask a mod and the poster permission to post and publish and that's that. If either says no, he's done.

Second, we are talking about a vendor fee. According to the rules you posted, neither users or members can promote a business. The question is, is that what he is doing? And, is it the kind of business for which the rules are designed. The businesses in the vendor list are all businesses, the kind that sell a product or a service. I didn't check every single one but I don't think I saw a vendor that is a publisher. They're all motor sport companies, parts sellers, sticker companies, paint companies, entities that have something to peddle to us. Newspaper companies, managers of auto manufacturers, auto journalists do not appear to be targeted for the vendor list.

If Chris Harris created an account, asked for opinions and asked to post about those opinions in one of his videos, does he have to create a vendor account? Should he be prevented from doing his thing, reporting and creating videos that we watch? I don't see anything in the rules about that and don't know the answer. But, if the answer is yes, I think that would be a shame because the people that would be hurt by his not being able to report on the subject, would be us.

hfm

Just to clarify, instead of saying "the businesses in the vendor list are all businesses," I should have said, the businesses in the vendor lists are all vendors. That is to say, retailers, wholesalers or service providers in the business of selling us something. They're not publishers who aren't trying to sell us anything and that's an important distinction. Anyways, cheers.