0Q991

How about this--both cars are great. The best car for you / me is the one you / I decide to buy. No need to win each other over--I'm sure we've all decided which one we prefer for whatever our personal utility / reasoning happens to be.

MaxLTV

Any part of a car that lasts less than a month or two and can be easily replaced with a differently performing part without even voiding warranty is not a permanent feature of the car. So I do not care how tires, brake pads or windshield washing fluid that come with the car perform - it's irrelevant after just few weeks. The weight, gearbox, drive etc. all stay with car for much longer, often forever.

I am not claiming that this car is fast because of tires, but if it is, there is nothing wrong with calling it out. GT3 destroyed McLaren in some reviews primarily because of tires (MPSC2 vs. regular PZero), and even though I own GT3 I noticed that with equal tires the result would likely have been different.

frayed

Uh, b/c mags test cars as delivered from the factory?



I guess you've never run hoosiers?

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I have no axe to grind here, as both cars are still on order and the current plan is to make room for both. I know the Chebbie will never *feel* like a Porsche, much less a Fiat.

And to the OP, who the hell said the mullet car was 'better' than the GT3? That's a stretch.

Better for 60k less? Well for some people it is.

For me it's all about entertainment value.

BBMGT3

I'm more circumspect is what I'm saying, and I've been on circuits for long enough and in different machinery, running Pilot Sport, SuperSport, PZero, Corsa, MPSC, Trofeo, Trofeo R, Pirelli DH/DM/DS, Michelin Cup Enduro/Sprint, Dunlop enduro, and so on. The side-by-side tests are nice and fun and interesting for a simple comparison but by no means are they conclusive, exhaustive, or not subject to little tricks to stack results either way. GM is very smart to put the car on Trofeo's. For hardly any additional cost, the car is now 5s faster than it would have been on street tires. Or so.

So, for those comparing the 991 to the Camaro, or, even for those comparing the 991C2S to the 997.2 GT3, or the 3.8RS to the 991gt3, a very important factor, one that IMO is the most important performance modifier on any car, is the rubber on the road. Not at least including a significant disclaimer that the tire is making the car look better than it is, or worse, doesn't do anyone any help.

BBMGT3

No I have not. They are not available in my country. However, Hoosiers are not road legal and therefore I would not classify them in the same category.

I have heard they are faster than the Pirelli's.

996FLT6

Has any asked what's considered not suitable for the 991 gt3 tirewise? They don't mandate use of slicks but Hoosier r6/a6 is ok? Is there an official word from PAG on that? Mike

wanna911

For years Porsche took advantage of MPSC vs whatever car on street tires. Now that there are actually faster tires on other platforms, all kinds of whining going on. No one is going to equalize tires. Porsche has the biggest profit margin, they should be able to put the fastest tires on the car. The magazines shouldn't have to do it for them. It's an impossibility in most cases anyways because even still tires are developed for certain platforms. Porsche has it's own compounds of MPSC, which in the past at least were not even comparable to off the shelf MPSC in terms of speed.

Tires are not the only reason the Camaro is fast. And let's be honest, by the time you replace Trofeo's you can buy V710 or R6 on a set of track wheels and go even faster still. Or better yet slicks....... That is the only way you are going to even the playing field.

Manifold

Point is that magazine and lap time comparisons lose some validity when tires aren't the same, so the 'results' need to be viewed in that context. Not saying or expecting that magazines will actually buy equal tires to make the comparisons.

savyboy

Yup.



The bottom line to the tire excusists is - It was all ok as long as "their" team was winning.

It's ok to compare a millisecond shifting PDK to a stone-age six-speed as long as your car "wins". Nobody has the integrity to say "Hey! "we" were faster but we had a much better gearbox. And rear-wheel steering. And an electronic diff, and a 600lb weight advantage".

Instead it's "Cheaters! Not fair! "You" had a faster OE tire, "our" car came from the factory with a slower tire!" (even though "they" had ALL the other advantages).

Seriously, how pathetic is that position? Objectivity seems not to apply.

Thankfully as a car guy, not a marque guy, I can simply follow the value trail no matter to which make/model it leads. I'm not trying to make the case for a certain car, or defend my buying choice, and certainly not to sell anyone on a particular car. But if you are a car guy and seeking a fair discussion, it's intellectually bankrupt to make the tire excuse.

No one answered my F1 question? All cars run the same tires, how are they not all running the same lap times? Tires are the great equalizer by some folks claim in this thread, so you fellows explain to me why some cars in F1 are faster and some slower apart from drivers? The honest answer is - Quality of design and engineering of the car as a whole. Can tire excusists find the courage to apply that reality to this discussion?

Quikag

BOOM!!!

Mike in CA

That's because, respectfully, your question is irrelevant. Of course there are differences in performance between cars (and drivers for that matter) in F1. It's also true that in F1 the SAME car driven by the SAME driver is typically significantly faster on the option tire than on the prime tire so obviously tires, along with other more permanent features of the car, make a difference. In fact those same tire choices at different stages of a race often tend to equalize performance between cars that wouldn't otherwise be equal.

Bottom line, IIRC in the test we're discussing the Camaro turned slightly slower lap times than the Porsche even though it was on stickier tires. On the same tires the gap would be wider. That's not to say that the Camaro isn't very impressive, especially at the price. It is. It's not a car I have any interest in owning, but as an enthusiast I appreciate the fact that it's available for those who do.

Iridium

Frankly it just points out how much more car we could be getting from Porsche in the Cayman line. I think that's the real discussion point.

LehmanZ06

I used to have a 10 GT3. Great car but I had some annoying issues with it.

Z/28 stitching isn't as nice. Car though feels just as special---plus it's American----plus it has torque---plus it's a bigger pain to park.

Plus it looks like the Batmobile in Black.

LehmanZ06

In warmer temps the time delta btw Z and GT3 might have been less maybe as grip would have been better for Z and improved more than the Gt3 would have as the gt3 had a straight line edge not a cornering edge, that and the gt3 ran an auto trans.

mooty

991 gt too intense chill guys
I subscribe to every known car mag out there for pic and substitute for toilet papers. other than panorama.

never understood comparison.

if u keep comparing women u wont ever get married and always alone
if u compare wine, u end up drunk
if u compare stereo u end up with enough electronic that makes the 918 cheap by comparison ( I do have 8 pairs of ML2 NOS for sale at $100,000 per pair, pm if u like, also ml 6b NOS. I have the only. Nos in the world at this point)
if u compare bikes, u end up like me. some are only good climbing other good descending

what's the point
buy eother car
put 50000 miles in it
have FUN