Camaro "better" than GT3...
#31
How about this--both cars are great. The best car for you / me is the one you / I decide to buy. No need to win each other over--I'm sure we've all decided which one we prefer for whatever our personal utility / reasoning happens to be.
#32
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Do you understand side-by-side tests of cars with a double-clutch automatic gearbox vs an old fashioned manually shifted 6-speed? How about side-by-side tests with AWD vs rear wheel drive? How about 3200 lbs vs 3800 lbs? How about equipped with rear-wheel steering and not? It sounds like that's ok with you though?
It's funny how where you stand is a function of where you sit isn't it? You (your collective identical mindset cohort) choose to ignore a multitude of significant contributing factors to focus on the one factor you want to use for an excuse.
F1. Same tires for ALL cars. Massively different results. Riddle me the explanation for that, those of you afflicted with tire excusitis...
Not a personal attack Mr BBMGT3, simply an airing of what needs to aired
It's funny how where you stand is a function of where you sit isn't it? You (your collective identical mindset cohort) choose to ignore a multitude of significant contributing factors to focus on the one factor you want to use for an excuse.
F1. Same tires for ALL cars. Massively different results. Riddle me the explanation for that, those of you afflicted with tire excusitis...
Not a personal attack Mr BBMGT3, simply an airing of what needs to aired
I am not claiming that this car is fast because of tires, but if it is, there is nothing wrong with calling it out. GT3 destroyed McLaren in some reviews primarily because of tires (MPSC2 vs. regular PZero), and even though I own GT3 I noticed that with equal tires the result would likely have been different.
#33
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I have no axe to grind here, as both cars are still on order and the current plan is to make room for both. I know the Chebbie will never *feel* like a Porsche, much less a Fiat.
And to the OP, who the hell said the mullet car was 'better' than the GT3? That's a stretch.
Better for 60k less? Well for some people it is.
For me it's all about entertainment value.
#34
Do you understand side-by-side tests of cars with a double-clutch automatic gearbox vs an old fashioned manually shifted 6-speed? How about side-by-side tests with AWD vs rear wheel drive? How about 3200 lbs vs 3800 lbs? How about equipped with rear-wheel steering and not? It sounds like that's ok with you though?
It's funny how where you stand is a function of where you sit isn't it? You (your collective identical mindset cohort) choose to ignore a multitude of significant contributing factors to focus on the one factor you want to use for an excuse.
F1. Same tires for ALL cars. Massively different results. Riddle me the explanation for that, those of you afflicted with tire excusitis...
Not a personal attack Mr BBMGT3, simply an airing of what needs to aired
It's funny how where you stand is a function of where you sit isn't it? You (your collective identical mindset cohort) choose to ignore a multitude of significant contributing factors to focus on the one factor you want to use for an excuse.
F1. Same tires for ALL cars. Massively different results. Riddle me the explanation for that, those of you afflicted with tire excusitis...
Not a personal attack Mr BBMGT3, simply an airing of what needs to aired
So, for those comparing the 991 to the Camaro, or, even for those comparing the 991C2S to the 997.2 GT3, or the 3.8RS to the 991gt3, a very important factor, one that IMO is the most important performance modifier on any car, is the rubber on the road. Not at least including a significant disclaimer that the tire is making the car look better than it is, or worse, doesn't do anyone any help.
#35
#36
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Has any asked what's considered not suitable for the 991 gt3 tirewise? They don't mandate use of slicks but Hoosier r6/a6 is ok? Is there an official word from PAG on that? Mike
#37
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For years Porsche took advantage of MPSC vs whatever car on street tires. Now that there are actually faster tires on other platforms, all kinds of whining going on. No one is going to equalize tires. Porsche has the biggest profit margin, they should be able to put the fastest tires on the car. The magazines shouldn't have to do it for them. It's an impossibility in most cases anyways because even still tires are developed for certain platforms. Porsche has it's own compounds of MPSC, which in the past at least were not even comparable to off the shelf MPSC in terms of speed.
Tires are not the only reason the Camaro is fast. And let's be honest, by the time you replace Trofeo's you can buy V710 or R6 on a set of track wheels and go even faster still. Or better yet slicks....... That is the only way you are going to even the playing field.
Tires are not the only reason the Camaro is fast. And let's be honest, by the time you replace Trofeo's you can buy V710 or R6 on a set of track wheels and go even faster still. Or better yet slicks....... That is the only way you are going to even the playing field.
#38
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Point is that magazine and lap time comparisons lose some validity when tires aren't the same, so the 'results' need to be viewed in that context. Not saying or expecting that magazines will actually buy equal tires to make the comparisons.
#39
The bottom line to the tire excusists is - It was all ok as long as "their" team was winning.
It's ok to compare a millisecond shifting PDK to a stone-age six-speed as long as your car "wins". Nobody has the integrity to say "Hey! "we" were faster but we had a much better gearbox. And rear-wheel steering. And an electronic diff, and a 600lb weight advantage".
Instead it's "Cheaters! Not fair! "You" had a faster OE tire, "our" car came from the factory with a slower tire!" (even though "they" had ALL the other advantages).
Seriously, how pathetic is that position? Objectivity seems not to apply.
Thankfully as a car guy, not a marque guy, I can simply follow the value trail no matter to which make/model it leads. I'm not trying to make the case for a certain car, or defend my buying choice, and certainly not to sell anyone on a particular car. But if you are a car guy and seeking a fair discussion, it's intellectually bankrupt to make the tire excuse.
No one answered my F1 question? All cars run the same tires, how are they not all running the same lap times? Tires are the great equalizer by some folks claim in this thread, so you fellows explain to me why some cars in F1 are faster and some slower apart from drivers? The honest answer is - Quality of design and engineering of the car as a whole. Can tire excusists find the courage to apply that reality to this discussion?
#40
Rennlist Member
Yup.
The bottom line to the tire excusists is - It was all ok as long as "their" team was winning.
It's ok to compare a millisecond shifting PDK to a stone-age six-speed as long as your car "wins". Nobody has the integrity to say "Hey! "we" were faster but we had a much better gearbox. And rear-wheel steering. And an electronic diff, and a 600lb weight advantage".
Instead it's "Cheaters! Not fair! "You" had a faster OE tire, "our" car came from the factory with a slower tire!" (even though "they" had ALL the other advantages).
Seriously, how pathetic is that position? Objectivity seems not to apply.
Thankfully as a car guy, not a marque guy, I can simply follow the value trail no matter to which make/model it leads. I'm not trying to make the case for a certain car, or defend my buying choice, and certainly not to sell anyone on a particular car. But if you are a car guy and seeking a fair discussion, it's intellectually bankrupt to make the tire excuse.
No one answered my F1 question? All cars run the same tires, how are they not all running the same lap times? Tires are the great equalizer by some folks claim in this thread, so you fellows explain to me why some cars in F1 are faster and some slower apart from drivers? The honest answer is - Quality of design and engineering of the car as a whole. Can tire excusists find the courage to apply that reality to this discussion?
The bottom line to the tire excusists is - It was all ok as long as "their" team was winning.
It's ok to compare a millisecond shifting PDK to a stone-age six-speed as long as your car "wins". Nobody has the integrity to say "Hey! "we" were faster but we had a much better gearbox. And rear-wheel steering. And an electronic diff, and a 600lb weight advantage".
Instead it's "Cheaters! Not fair! "You" had a faster OE tire, "our" car came from the factory with a slower tire!" (even though "they" had ALL the other advantages).
Seriously, how pathetic is that position? Objectivity seems not to apply.
Thankfully as a car guy, not a marque guy, I can simply follow the value trail no matter to which make/model it leads. I'm not trying to make the case for a certain car, or defend my buying choice, and certainly not to sell anyone on a particular car. But if you are a car guy and seeking a fair discussion, it's intellectually bankrupt to make the tire excuse.
No one answered my F1 question? All cars run the same tires, how are they not all running the same lap times? Tires are the great equalizer by some folks claim in this thread, so you fellows explain to me why some cars in F1 are faster and some slower apart from drivers? The honest answer is - Quality of design and engineering of the car as a whole. Can tire excusists find the courage to apply that reality to this discussion?
#41
Race Director
No one answered my F1 question? All cars run the same tires, how are they not all running the same lap times? Tires are the great equalizer by some folks claim in this thread, so you fellows explain to me why some cars in F1 are faster and some slower apart from drivers? The honest answer is - Quality of design and engineering of the car as a whole. Can tire excusists find the courage to apply that reality to this discussion?
Bottom line, IIRC in the test we're discussing the Camaro turned slightly slower lap times than the Porsche even though it was on stickier tires. On the same tires the gap would be wider. That's not to say that the Camaro isn't very impressive, especially at the price. It is. It's not a car I have any interest in owning, but as an enthusiast I appreciate the fact that it's available for those who do.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 05-22-2014 at 02:15 PM.
#43
There are variables that are hard to measure. I owned a 2006 ZO6...fantastic performance for the price. A friend of mine had a 430 Ferrari and we traded for a drive. On paper, both cars had very similar performance, but the feel, fit and finish of the Ferrari was completely different. After driving the Ferrari and getting back into my ZO6, I felt like I was driving home in a souped-up Impala!
It's more than just raw number on paper; sometimes it's about how a door closes or a seat feels or a car smells that gets your blood flowing. Tire compound obviously has a tremendous affect on lap times, too.
It's more than just raw number on paper; sometimes it's about how a door closes or a seat feels or a car smells that gets your blood flowing. Tire compound obviously has a tremendous affect on lap times, too.
Z/28 stitching isn't as nice. Car though feels just as special---plus it's American----plus it has torque---plus it's a bigger pain to park.
Plus it looks like the Batmobile in Black.
#44
In warmer temps the time delta btw Z and GT3 might have been less maybe as grip would have been better for Z and improved more than the Gt3 would have as the gt3 had a straight line edge not a cornering edge, that and the gt3 ran an auto trans.
#45
GT3 player par excellence
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991 gt too intense chill guys
I subscribe to every known car mag out there for pic and substitute for toilet papers. other than panorama.
never understood comparison.
if u keep comparing women u wont ever get married and always alone
if u compare wine, u end up drunk
if u compare stereo u end up with enough electronic that makes the 918 cheap by comparison ( I do have 8 pairs of ML2 NOS for sale at $100,000 per pair, pm if u like, also ml 6b NOS. I have the only. Nos in the world at this point)
if u compare bikes, u end up like me. some are only good climbing other good descending
what's the point
buy eother car
put 50000 miles in it
have FUN
I subscribe to every known car mag out there for pic and substitute for toilet papers. other than panorama.
never understood comparison.
if u keep comparing women u wont ever get married and always alone
if u compare wine, u end up drunk
if u compare stereo u end up with enough electronic that makes the 918 cheap by comparison ( I do have 8 pairs of ML2 NOS for sale at $100,000 per pair, pm if u like, also ml 6b NOS. I have the only. Nos in the world at this point)
if u compare bikes, u end up like me. some are only good climbing other good descending
what's the point
buy eother car
put 50000 miles in it
have FUN