Test drove a 991 Turbo S today
01-20-2014, 10:48 PM
#31
Modern Ferraris are as reliable as modern Porsches. I have owned lots of each.
01-20-2014, 11:01 PM
#32
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No, they aren't. We had an article posted here not that long ago that told us about Ferrari specifying that part makers push the envelope further for performance than Porsche at the expense of durability. I think it may have been in relation to calipers but whatever, it's surely true. Others who have tracked Scuds have commented on their relative fragility and I've seen it first hand. None of this is surprising...
01-21-2014, 12:59 PM
#33
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For every day use they are about the same. Ferrari has dramatically improved. I never tracked my Ferrari's so I cannot comment on their durability while tracking.
01-21-2014, 01:33 PM
#34
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No, they aren't. We had an article posted here not that long ago that told us about Ferrari specifying that part makers push the envelope further for performance than Porsche at the expense of durability. I think it may have been in relation to calipers but whatever, it's surely true. Others who have tracked Scuds have commented on their relative fragility and I've seen it first hand. None of this is surprising...
One interesting bit of information is that the DCT tranmission used in the 458 is manufactured by Getrag and the exact same transmission is used in several Mercedes AMG cars and in the 458.
Anyone who has driven both, immediately notices how much quicker the gear changes are in the 458 compared to the AMG cars.
The reason is that Mercedes and Ferrari both discovered in their testing process of the Getrag transmission is that this transmission could produce blinding quick shifts, but if you programmed the transmission to shift that way, it would break down much sooner.
Mercedes kept the shifts at a slower less exciting rate, because they didn't want to **** off their customers or hurt their reputation with a transmission that would fail at 20-30,000 miles.
Ferrari's approach was that 1-their customer base would be wowed by the theatrical shifts in the 458, and so the faster shifts would be critical
2-their customer base would accept transmissions that had to be replaced early in the cars life, as long as the car was exciting to drive and shift
A great example of why Ferraris are not as reliable as other high-end sports cars.
01-21-2014, 02:20 PM
#35
Another urban legend springs fourth. Thats what my GF calls mother in law research. If you saw what the cars at COTA are put through on the race track you would know BS when you hear it. No street Porsche and no street Ferraris are meant to be race cars.
What you just stated is complete B.S.
How many Ferraris have you owned?
What you just stated is complete B.S.
How many Ferraris have you owned?
01-21-2014, 03:17 PM
#36
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One interesting bit of information is that the DCT tranmission used in the 458 is manufactured by Getrag and the exact same transmission is used in several Mercedes AMG cars and in the 458.
Anyone who has driven both, immediately notices how much quicker the gear changes are in the 458 compared to the AMG cars.
The reason is that Mercedes and Ferrari both discovered in their testing process of the Getrag transmission is that this transmission could produce blinding quick shifts, but if you programmed the transmission to shift that way, it would break down much sooner.
Mercedes kept the shifts at a slower less exciting rate, because they didn't want to **** off their customers or hurt their reputation with a transmission that would fail at 20-30,000 miles.
Anyone who has driven both, immediately notices how much quicker the gear changes are in the 458 compared to the AMG cars.
The reason is that Mercedes and Ferrari both discovered in their testing process of the Getrag transmission is that this transmission could produce blinding quick shifts, but if you programmed the transmission to shift that way, it would break down much sooner.
Mercedes kept the shifts at a slower less exciting rate, because they didn't want to **** off their customers or hurt their reputation with a transmission that would fail at 20-30,000 miles.
Also it might be the same base box for both cars, I bet you the clutches in the AMG need to be strenghtened, due to the much higher torque load
Mike
01-21-2014, 05:42 PM
#37
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I don't know what article you are referring to, but I do know that much of what you say is true.
One interesting bit of information is that the DCT tranmission used in the 458 is manufactured by Getrag and the exact same transmission is used in several Mercedes AMG cars and in the 458.
Anyone who has driven both, immediately notices how much quicker the gear changes are in the 458 compared to the AMG cars.
The reason is that Mercedes and Ferrari both discovered in their testing process of the Getrag transmission is that this transmission could produce blinding quick shifts, but if you programmed the transmission to shift that way, it would break down much sooner.
Mercedes kept the shifts at a slower less exciting rate, because they didn't want to **** off their customers or hurt their reputation with a transmission that would fail at 20-30,000 miles.
Ferrari's approach was that 1-their customer base would be wowed by the theatrical shifts in the 458, and so the faster shifts would be critical
2-their customer base would accept transmissions that had to be replaced early in the cars life, as long as the car was exciting to drive and shift
A great example of why Ferraris are not as reliable as other high-end sports cars.
One interesting bit of information is that the DCT tranmission used in the 458 is manufactured by Getrag and the exact same transmission is used in several Mercedes AMG cars and in the 458.
Anyone who has driven both, immediately notices how much quicker the gear changes are in the 458 compared to the AMG cars.
The reason is that Mercedes and Ferrari both discovered in their testing process of the Getrag transmission is that this transmission could produce blinding quick shifts, but if you programmed the transmission to shift that way, it would break down much sooner.
Mercedes kept the shifts at a slower less exciting rate, because they didn't want to **** off their customers or hurt their reputation with a transmission that would fail at 20-30,000 miles.
Ferrari's approach was that 1-their customer base would be wowed by the theatrical shifts in the 458, and so the faster shifts would be critical
2-their customer base would accept transmissions that had to be replaced early in the cars life, as long as the car was exciting to drive and shift
A great example of why Ferraris are not as reliable as other high-end sports cars.
the transmission in my BMW M5 F10 shifted as fast as the one in my F458 (i think it is basically the same Getrag unit) and i have not heard reliability concerns.
you can find transmission problems affecting individual cars here and there but i do not see a pattern.
do you want me to list the issues i had with my 997 C4S?
01-21-2014, 07:40 PM
#38
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Another urban legend springs fourth. Thats what my GF calls mother in law research. If you saw what the cars at COTA are put through on the race track you would know BS when you hear it. No street Porsche and no street Ferraris are meant to be race cars.
What you just stated is complete B.S.
How many Ferraris have you owned?
What you just stated is complete B.S.
How many Ferraris have you owned?
01-21-2014, 10:29 PM
#39
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Ferrari equals passione. I'm interested in owning one someday.
Ultimately, there is minimal objective data available to the public on the reliability of most supercars. Consumer reports doesn't have a section for Ferrari, and no major car company will just hand over the % repairs per customer per year, without one hell of a court order
I don't know as much about Ferraris as some on this board, that's for sure. But owning a Ferrari or two doesn't make someone the master of all knowledge related to Ferrari. Sorry, but it doesn't, anymore than I am the master of all Porsche knowledge after two Porsches.
On Fchat, for two years after people started taking delivery of the 458, there was a new post almost every week related to DCT malfunction or outright DCT breakdown. That's a lot for a very limited number of brand new cars.
There are far few reports of DCT trouble since the first two years, so I assume that more reliable improvements have been made to the transmission. My friends with Ferraris tell me the same.
Hey, I want to believe that Ferrari reliability has improved. I would love to get a Ferrari, just trying to decide the right time.
Anyway, I'm not trying to pick a fight, just share information, which is the point of this board.
Last edited by Drifting; 01-21-2014 at 10:40 PM. Reason: .
01-21-2014, 10:46 PM
#40
When you state rumour as fact and have no real basis for it I am not sure what you call it other than BS.
At least I have a basis for my opinions. You have none.
At least I have a basis for my opinions. You have none.
01-21-2014, 10:59 PM
#41
I've owned two 458s, both coupes.
I've owned two SLSs, a "standard" coupe, and a new Black Series which sits next to my CGT as we speak.
A few thoughts from first hand experience. A very important measurement for me is the delay between activation of the shift lever and the response of the transmission. The delay in the standard SLS was laughably, disappointingly slow. Much slower than the 458. So much so that I ended up driving the SLS in auto, something I never, ever did in the 458. I sold the car quite quickly, although it was brilliant in many other respects. i can only presume that Mercedes dialed back the shift response because it is CERTAINLY more sympathetic to the internal components. Mercedes probably surmised that the average SLS driver would spend most of time in automatic, and I must say that shifts in auto are quite satisfying. I am of the opinion that when a manufacturer must warrant a product, that are highly motivated to make it durable, even at the expense of am emotional driving experience. Whether Ferrari permits faster shift times because its engine produces less torque is an interesting thought. (One thing I love about the 458 is that you can select neutral by pulling both left and right levers simultaneously. Its nice to coast to a light instead of feeling the car surge through the gears as one slows down. This is not available on the SLS)
The Black Series feels like a completely different car, and the transmission cracks off shifts with the same lightening quickness as the 458. Yes, the engine has massive torque, and I too wonder whether they were willing to tune it up a bit because it is such a small market car (less than 200 cars). Who knows.
I will say that I never had any problems with the 458s, with the exception of a broken weld on a chassis brace of my 2013 that required the almost complete disassembly of the back half of the car. It had about 70 miles on it at the time. The only solace was that the service department at my dealer put the car back together again with much more love and attention than the guys did in Maranello.
I am a pretty staunch fan of Ferrari, but I respectfully disagree with a statement that the quality of the Ferrari is equal to that of Porsche. Ferrari does not emphasize strict, perfectionist quality like Porsche does. Yes, they try, but Ferraris are not sold for their quality. The fit and finish on my 991 C4S is clearly superior to that of my 458. The fit and finish on my CGT is simply astounding. The fit and finish on my Black Series is also superior to either of the 458s. Have you looked at the orange peel on a new 458? Compare the paint texture and general panel smoothness of the 458 with that of the Bentley. There is no comparison between the two. Why? Because Bentley knows that their buyers demand this of a 250k car. Ferrari knows that their buyers are just thrilled to have that chrome pony on the back.
There is a reason that Ferrari gives an unlimited mile, three year warranty: the cars simply never get driven and Ferrari knows that. They know that the cars are trophy cars, and that a SIGNIFICANT percentage of their buyers are not car guys, but conspicuous consumers. What a shame that such an incredible car as the 458 is considered "high mileage" when it has 10,000 miles. My 991 is still burning off the cosmoline at 10k miles
I've owned two SLSs, a "standard" coupe, and a new Black Series which sits next to my CGT as we speak.
A few thoughts from first hand experience. A very important measurement for me is the delay between activation of the shift lever and the response of the transmission. The delay in the standard SLS was laughably, disappointingly slow. Much slower than the 458. So much so that I ended up driving the SLS in auto, something I never, ever did in the 458. I sold the car quite quickly, although it was brilliant in many other respects. i can only presume that Mercedes dialed back the shift response because it is CERTAINLY more sympathetic to the internal components. Mercedes probably surmised that the average SLS driver would spend most of time in automatic, and I must say that shifts in auto are quite satisfying. I am of the opinion that when a manufacturer must warrant a product, that are highly motivated to make it durable, even at the expense of am emotional driving experience. Whether Ferrari permits faster shift times because its engine produces less torque is an interesting thought. (One thing I love about the 458 is that you can select neutral by pulling both left and right levers simultaneously. Its nice to coast to a light instead of feeling the car surge through the gears as one slows down. This is not available on the SLS)
The Black Series feels like a completely different car, and the transmission cracks off shifts with the same lightening quickness as the 458. Yes, the engine has massive torque, and I too wonder whether they were willing to tune it up a bit because it is such a small market car (less than 200 cars). Who knows.
I will say that I never had any problems with the 458s, with the exception of a broken weld on a chassis brace of my 2013 that required the almost complete disassembly of the back half of the car. It had about 70 miles on it at the time. The only solace was that the service department at my dealer put the car back together again with much more love and attention than the guys did in Maranello.
I am a pretty staunch fan of Ferrari, but I respectfully disagree with a statement that the quality of the Ferrari is equal to that of Porsche. Ferrari does not emphasize strict, perfectionist quality like Porsche does. Yes, they try, but Ferraris are not sold for their quality. The fit and finish on my 991 C4S is clearly superior to that of my 458. The fit and finish on my CGT is simply astounding. The fit and finish on my Black Series is also superior to either of the 458s. Have you looked at the orange peel on a new 458? Compare the paint texture and general panel smoothness of the 458 with that of the Bentley. There is no comparison between the two. Why? Because Bentley knows that their buyers demand this of a 250k car. Ferrari knows that their buyers are just thrilled to have that chrome pony on the back.
There is a reason that Ferrari gives an unlimited mile, three year warranty: the cars simply never get driven and Ferrari knows that. They know that the cars are trophy cars, and that a SIGNIFICANT percentage of their buyers are not car guys, but conspicuous consumers. What a shame that such an incredible car as the 458 is considered "high mileage" when it has 10,000 miles. My 991 is still burning off the cosmoline at 10k miles
01-22-2014, 06:16 AM
#43
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I've owned two 458s, both coupes.
I've owned two SLSs, a "standard" coupe, and a new Black Series which sits next to my CGT as we speak.
A few thoughts from first hand experience. A very important measurement for me is the delay between activation of the shift lever and the response of the transmission. The delay in the standard SLS was laughably, disappointingly slow. Much slower than the 458. So much so that I ended up driving the SLS in auto, something I never, ever did in the 458. I sold the car quite quickly, although it was brilliant in many other respects. i can only presume that Mercedes dialed back the shift response because it is CERTAINLY more sympathetic to the internal components. Mercedes probably surmised that the average SLS driver would spend most of time in automatic, and I must say that shifts in auto are quite satisfying. I am of the opinion that when a manufacturer must warrant a product, that are highly motivated to make it durable, even at the expense of am emotional driving experience. Whether Ferrari permits faster shift times because its engine produces less torque is an interesting thought. (One thing I love about the 458 is that you can select neutral by pulling both left and right levers simultaneously. Its nice to coast to a light instead of feeling the car surge through the gears as one slows down. This is not available on the SLS)
The Black Series feels like a completely different car, and the transmission cracks off shifts with the same lightening quickness as the 458. Yes, the engine has massive torque, and I too wonder whether they were willing to tune it up a bit because it is such a small market car (less than 200 cars). Who knows.
I will say that I never had any problems with the 458s, with the exception of a broken weld on a chassis brace of my 2013 that required the almost complete disassembly of the back half of the car. It had about 70 miles on it at the time. The only solace was that the service department at my dealer put the car back together again with much more love and attention than the guys did in Maranello.
I am a pretty staunch fan of Ferrari, but I respectfully disagree with a statement that the quality of the Ferrari is equal to that of Porsche. Ferrari does not emphasize strict, perfectionist quality like Porsche does. Yes, they try, but Ferraris are not sold for their quality. The fit and finish on my 991 C4S is clearly superior to that of my 458. The fit and finish on my CGT is simply astounding. The fit and finish on my Black Series is also superior to either of the 458s. Have you looked at the orange peel on a new 458? Compare the paint texture and general panel smoothness of the 458 with that of the Bentley. There is no comparison between the two. Why? Because Bentley knows that their buyers demand this of a 250k car. Ferrari knows that their buyers are just thrilled to have that chrome pony on the back.
There is a reason that Ferrari gives an unlimited mile, three year warranty: the cars simply never get driven and Ferrari knows that. They know that the cars are trophy cars, and that a SIGNIFICANT percentage of their buyers are not car guys, but conspicuous consumers. What a shame that such an incredible car as the 458 is considered "high mileage" when it has 10,000 miles. My 991 is still burning off the cosmoline at 10k miles
I've owned two SLSs, a "standard" coupe, and a new Black Series which sits next to my CGT as we speak.
A few thoughts from first hand experience. A very important measurement for me is the delay between activation of the shift lever and the response of the transmission. The delay in the standard SLS was laughably, disappointingly slow. Much slower than the 458. So much so that I ended up driving the SLS in auto, something I never, ever did in the 458. I sold the car quite quickly, although it was brilliant in many other respects. i can only presume that Mercedes dialed back the shift response because it is CERTAINLY more sympathetic to the internal components. Mercedes probably surmised that the average SLS driver would spend most of time in automatic, and I must say that shifts in auto are quite satisfying. I am of the opinion that when a manufacturer must warrant a product, that are highly motivated to make it durable, even at the expense of am emotional driving experience. Whether Ferrari permits faster shift times because its engine produces less torque is an interesting thought. (One thing I love about the 458 is that you can select neutral by pulling both left and right levers simultaneously. Its nice to coast to a light instead of feeling the car surge through the gears as one slows down. This is not available on the SLS)
The Black Series feels like a completely different car, and the transmission cracks off shifts with the same lightening quickness as the 458. Yes, the engine has massive torque, and I too wonder whether they were willing to tune it up a bit because it is such a small market car (less than 200 cars). Who knows.
I will say that I never had any problems with the 458s, with the exception of a broken weld on a chassis brace of my 2013 that required the almost complete disassembly of the back half of the car. It had about 70 miles on it at the time. The only solace was that the service department at my dealer put the car back together again with much more love and attention than the guys did in Maranello.
I am a pretty staunch fan of Ferrari, but I respectfully disagree with a statement that the quality of the Ferrari is equal to that of Porsche. Ferrari does not emphasize strict, perfectionist quality like Porsche does. Yes, they try, but Ferraris are not sold for their quality. The fit and finish on my 991 C4S is clearly superior to that of my 458. The fit and finish on my CGT is simply astounding. The fit and finish on my Black Series is also superior to either of the 458s. Have you looked at the orange peel on a new 458? Compare the paint texture and general panel smoothness of the 458 with that of the Bentley. There is no comparison between the two. Why? Because Bentley knows that their buyers demand this of a 250k car. Ferrari knows that their buyers are just thrilled to have that chrome pony on the back.
There is a reason that Ferrari gives an unlimited mile, three year warranty: the cars simply never get driven and Ferrari knows that. They know that the cars are trophy cars, and that a SIGNIFICANT percentage of their buyers are not car guys, but conspicuous consumers. What a shame that such an incredible car as the 458 is considered "high mileage" when it has 10,000 miles. My 991 is still burning off the cosmoline at 10k miles
on the other hand, i have bought the F458 in july last year, put 11K km on it in sunshine, rain, snow and ice (with winter tyres of course) and had only one issue with it: the front lift leaked oil after a weak which was fixed by the dealership in a day. as compensation they lent me a california for a weekend, which was nice since it was summer---)))
peter
01-22-2014, 10:25 AM
#44
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I don't know what article you are referring to, but I do know that much of what you say is true.
One interesting bit of information is that the DCT tranmission used in the 458 is manufactured by Getrag and the exact same transmission is used in several Mercedes AMG cars and in the 458.
Anyone who has driven both, immediately notices how much quicker the gear changes are in the 458 compared to the AMG cars.
The reason is that Mercedes and Ferrari both discovered in their testing process of the Getrag transmission is that this transmission could produce blinding quick shifts, but if you programmed the transmission to shift that way, it would break down much sooner.
Mercedes kept the shifts at a slower less exciting rate, because they didn't want to **** off their customers or hurt their reputation with a transmission that would fail at 20-30,000 miles.
Ferrari's approach was that 1-their customer base would be wowed by the theatrical shifts in the 458, and so the faster shifts would be critical
2-their customer base would accept transmissions that had to be replaced early in the cars life, as long as the car was exciting to drive and shift
A great example of why Ferraris are not as reliable as other high-end sports cars.
One interesting bit of information is that the DCT tranmission used in the 458 is manufactured by Getrag and the exact same transmission is used in several Mercedes AMG cars and in the 458.
Anyone who has driven both, immediately notices how much quicker the gear changes are in the 458 compared to the AMG cars.
The reason is that Mercedes and Ferrari both discovered in their testing process of the Getrag transmission is that this transmission could produce blinding quick shifts, but if you programmed the transmission to shift that way, it would break down much sooner.
Mercedes kept the shifts at a slower less exciting rate, because they didn't want to **** off their customers or hurt their reputation with a transmission that would fail at 20-30,000 miles.
Ferrari's approach was that 1-their customer base would be wowed by the theatrical shifts in the 458, and so the faster shifts would be critical
2-their customer base would accept transmissions that had to be replaced early in the cars life, as long as the car was exciting to drive and shift
A great example of why Ferraris are not as reliable as other high-end sports cars.