Mike in CA

Very true about how things can be translated and (mis)understood.

I think that button turns off both PSM and traction control. Maybe those are the only things Walter really considers as "nannies"....

Manifold

Perhaps, but not all cheating is equal. If cornering is a key challenge of driving, getting major help in cornering would take away much of the challenge and possibly much of the fun too. I'm wondering how much help PTV offers -- I suspect that it's a lot.

Suzy991

You're right I think i also see only those two as real "nannies". PTV and RWS are "semi-nannies" LOL

But IMO, if you want a GT3, you want a car that is as fast as possible round a track. If it is only for the fun and involvement of driving and the laptimes aren't that important, a manual C2S would maybe do the job better. Each to their own of course....

I definitely would want a GT3 as an additional car, mostly for driving on tracks or inspiring roads, but not as my DD. For me, involvement is more than just a manual gearbox. I can have equal fun and involvement with a PDK.

Suzy991

Manifold

I disagree. If you want to be fastest around the track, get a race car set up for the track with no compromises made for street use. IMO, GT3 is supposed to be the pinnacle of sensory fun and involvement on the track, durable enough for a lot of serious track use, while still quite usable on the street. C2S is more compromised to accommodate street use, even having elements of luxury.

Mike in CA

PTV works at corner entry by braking the inside rear wheel to channel more drive force to the outside rear wheel and help the car rotate. IOW, it improves initial turn in and response to the steering, but doesn't interfere with whatever the driver is doing once he/she is into the corner.

Wider tires, lowered/stiffer suspension, sway bars, chassis tuning, more aggressive camber settings, etc. also can help improve steering response into a corner. To me, it gets a little fuzzy as to why PTV is "cheating" when those other things aren't, but YMMV.

The downside I can see is the possibility of increased rear brake wear with heavy track use. On the street it's a non-issue as has been borne out by PTV on my Cayenne.

Suzy991

That is what the GT3 still is in my opinion. With or without a PDK.
I absolutely don't get why there would be less involvement with a PDK, compared to a manual. OK, you don't have to use your left leg to operate the clutch... So now you could go and learn how to break with your left foot, while using the paddles to shift and meanwhile concentrate on getting the perfect line.
Driver involvement is something that is a lot more than just operating a manual. It's about the whole experience and where the new GT3 may have less "involvement" on the subject of shifting, it will probably have more involvement on another subject.
The big problem is that a lot of people are afraid of technological changes and rather stick with the things they are used to. (Not just in cars)
Nobody has driven the GT3 for a whole month or even week, so nobody knows how the car really is. I'm pretty confident that Porsche has made another great car that is "better" than its predecessor in every way.

Suzy991

Manifold

Why wouldn't it do the same thing in the corner, based on the driver's steering input and the car's yaw angle and direction of travel? For example, if the driver dials in more steering to tighten the radius of the line, I'd expect PTV to help as needed.

Manifold

My experience is that manual is more involving than PDK, on both road and track. And that experience is what matters, at least to me. That's not to say that PDK doesn't advantages, but those advantages still have to be weighed against decreased involvement.

Involvement is the stuff you have to do to drive a car. PDK means less stuff to do, so less involvement. You can increase your pace to add back some involvement, but speed isn't the same thing as involvement.

Mike in CA

Because, to the best of my knowledge, the system is designed to work at corner entry, not during transitions in-corner. This could easily be achieved by how it's programmed and using the yaw sensors and accelerometers already on board.

But let's say I'm wrong and it does work mid-corner. Keep in mind that PTV isn't making corrections to the line, it's simply providing an additional pulse to the car's rotation when you turn the wheel; IOW making response to initial steering input better. I'm still trying to understand how that's significantly different from any of the many other tweaks and improvements that have traditionally been used to improve turn-in.

Suzy991

One thing for sure... It's how someone experience it and that definitely is the only thing that matters. I agree with that. It can be different for different people though.
I also like manuals a lot and love driving a manual on both road and track. (On road only if I want to drive inspired) On the other hand, I also like all the "new" technologies and I see a challenge in exploring how to be quicker with those technologies. I like to improve everything I do, not only when driving a car.

Suzy991

Manifold

The difference is that PTV can apparently make adjustments in real time to correct for driver errors, whereas wider tires, more camber, stiffer suspension, etc. don't do that. It's active and dynamic interventions by the aids, PTV in particular, which bother me.

Mike in CA

Respectfully, I don't think you have a clear picture of how torque vectoring works. It absolutely does not "correct for driver error". It's not PSM. It's an on/off feature, which does not respond dynamically to intervene in controlling the driver's line independent of steering input. It only reacts when the driver reacts, in a way similar to how all of the mechanical aids do.

If the thought of it still seems like something that will be too annoying, then by all means don't buy a new GT3 or Stingray.

Manifold

But if its activation is related to steering input, that still has some similarity to what PSM does, and it takes away from the work a driver needs to do to get a car through a corner quickly.

Suzy991

So you say, you can brake only the inner wheel in a turn? Or do you just need to brake earlier, in order to get the apex of the corner?
The PTV system only improves the car's agility and does nothing to "save" the driver from entering a corner the wrong way....

Suzy991

frayed

I don't think the PTV saves your butt like PSM, but it does have complete control over which rear wheel gets power and how much. It also can individually brake the wheels. . . . all to keep the car in a neutral attitude.

Actually I take that back somewhat. Initial reports cite that with PSM off, the GT3 is set to oversteer.

IMO, Porsche has simply adopted *old* technology here; Fiat has been doing it for some time.

At the end of the day, there's much less see-sawing of the steering wheel to keep the shiny side up. Turn and you go that direction. PTV is a major component that adds to overall agility and predictability of the new 3 according to pag's literature.