Killing the PDK
06-02-2013, 11:40 PM
#106
Race Director
You said, "Well it's clearly much easier to drive the newer cars; hence they aren't losing "a driver or two a year." I was just pointing out that there was more to it than that with regard to safety. I was responding to your statement and adding context to the discussion; my argument needed no improving.
It's just my opinion, but from reading the other interactions you have going on here, confrontation rather than reaching an understanding seems to be your goal. Regardless, we'll just have to disagree. Enjoy your evening.
06-03-2013, 12:43 AM
#107
Sorry, no.
You said, "Well it's clearly much easier to drive the newer cars; hence they aren't losing "a driver or two a year." I was just pointing out that there was more to it than that with regard to safety. I was responding to your statement and adding context to the discussion; my argument needed no improving.
It's just my opinion, but from reading the other interactions you have going on here, confrontation rather than reaching an understanding seems to be your goal. Regardless, we'll just have to disagree. Enjoy your evening.
You said, "Well it's clearly much easier to drive the newer cars; hence they aren't losing "a driver or two a year." I was just pointing out that there was more to it than that with regard to safety. I was responding to your statement and adding context to the discussion; my argument needed no improving.
It's just my opinion, but from reading the other interactions you have going on here, confrontation rather than reaching an understanding seems to be your goal. Regardless, we'll just have to disagree. Enjoy your evening.
Mike in CA:
"I question whether Lewis, whom I admire greatly, really wants to go back to the days when F1 was losing a driver or two a year." <<< This is the red-herring.
Here -- how about a more concrete breakdown of your argument "which [supposedly] needs no improving?"
NoPasaran:
"Manual is manual, and robot is robot, whatever personal knowledge you ask for will not change that fact."
Mike in CA:
"Someone needs to tell the drivers in F1 and other race series that their paddle gearboxes are the precursor to total machine control, and soon they while be replaced "robots"! Sebastian Mettal! LOL." <<< I notice you've included a straw-man argument here that he's stating we're going towards "total machine control" which I doubt anyone on this forum thinks.
Destaccado:
"Nobody needs to tell the F1 drivers anything -- they already know.
Pay attention to what Lewis Hamilton drives or his comments about driving Ayrton Senna's ride..." <<< The obvious argument I'm making here is that F1 driver's know they have lost control of their vehicles over time not that we're going to "total machine control" -- sadly I feel the need to point this out.
Mike in CA:
"I question whether Lewis, whom I admire greatly, really wants to go back to the days when F1 was losing a driver or two a year. Besides, it's all relative; if anyone wasting time on this forum thinks they could step into a modern "robotized" F1 car and drive it competitively because it's so "easy", they're nuts." <<< Here's your red-herring in the first sentence ...and oh gee - look at that, the second part includes another straw-man argument about a claim no one here has made."
Mike in CA:
"It's just my opinion, but from reading the other interactions you have going on here, confrontation rather than reaching an understanding seems to be your goal." <<< another red-herring *YAWN*
How about you just stop using all these logical fallacies? ...or I guess just continue to 'dodge, dip, dive, duck, and dodge'
06-03-2013, 02:21 AM
#108
If he is biased in any way, it is towards Porsche rather than against it, since he's got lots of history and racing experience with them, old and new, water and air-cooled, race and rally. BTW, he preferred the GT3.2RS over the 458 2 years ago in a test too.
If you check out his (DRIVE) clips, you'll find him a true enthusiast, with great driving skills and very outspoken, the latter partially the benefit of not being linked to a magazine that's depending on advertising sales anymore.
Hence my conclusion: if he (or somebody like him, but there aren't that many around, if you ask me) condemns the car for all the critiques that are thrown around on this forum, I fully believe it. Until that, I continue to assume it will be great, albeit sadly not MT.
06-03-2013, 05:33 AM
#109
And cheese is cheese.....So what? What's important is not what it is, it's how well it works, and no matter what your bias is, you simply can't make that determination without knowledge.
BTW, I realize the use of the pejorative term "robot" is purposeful, as is the assertion that the "robot" will soon take over the wheel, brake, and other functions while we plug in our desired lap times, and of course it's all slippery-slope straw man hogwash. Someone needs to tell the drivers in F1 and other race series that their paddle gearboxes are the precursor to total machine control, and soon they while be replaced "robots"! Sebastian Mettal! LOL.
BTW, I realize the use of the pejorative term "robot" is purposeful, as is the assertion that the "robot" will soon take over the wheel, brake, and other functions while we plug in our desired lap times, and of course it's all slippery-slope straw man hogwash. Someone needs to tell the drivers in F1 and other race series that their paddle gearboxes are the precursor to total machine control, and soon they while be replaced "robots"! Sebastian Mettal! LOL.
I am not driving for business.
Yes, I've tried robots (what is pejorative about calling things for what they are? Should we be politically correct about transmissions now? :-D ) and 5 minutes into the ride I was bored. It is effective and efficient, but that is not good enough for me. But that is I, 95% of 911 buyers think differently, and that is fine as well.
Last edited by NoPasaran; 06-03-2013 at 06:02 AM.
06-03-2013, 05:44 AM
#110
I question whether Lewis, whom I admire greatly, really wants to go back to the days when F1 was losing a driver or two a year. Besides, it's all relative; if anyone wasting time on this forum thinks they could step into a modern "robotized" F1 car and drive it competitively because it's so "easy", they're nuts.
Hamilton can indulge himself in both a GL450 and a MT Zonda. If he could only have one vehicle for off track use, I wonder what he'd choose?
Hamilton can indulge himself in both a GL450 and a MT Zonda. If he could only have one vehicle for off track use, I wonder what he'd choose?
You know, when everyone does the same you have to follow, if you want to be a F1 driver. It is business and very big money. F1 has NOTHING to do with the personal choice.
06-03-2013, 05:50 AM
#111
Improved safety measures, safer tracks, and structural improvements in the cars are also obviously a factor.
To bring the discussion back to relevancy, however, the fact that modern race cars like those in F1 have paddle shifters may make them incrementally easier to drive on one level, but it hardly makes them easy or unchallenging to drive. If they were, anyone could step in and drive them to their limits. And just as with fast sports cars, no one will be plugging in a programmed chip to replace a human driver anytime soon, so please spare the robot analogies.
To bring the discussion back to relevancy, however, the fact that modern race cars like those in F1 have paddle shifters may make them incrementally easier to drive on one level, but it hardly makes them easy or unchallenging to drive. If they were, anyone could step in and drive them to their limits. And just as with fast sports cars, no one will be plugging in a programmed chip to replace a human driver anytime soon, so please spare the robot analogies.
06-03-2013, 05:52 AM
#112
06-03-2013, 05:57 AM
#113
IMHO, Harris is as objective as journalists come. Sure, he sold his RS 4.0 for a 599, but for financial reasons rather than driving ones. BTW, he also sold this 599 already, since it was not as affordable (to run) as he hoped. And he's thinking what to buy now.
If he is biased in any way, it is towards Porsche rather than against it, since he's got lots of history and racing experience with them, old and new, water and air-cooled, race and rally. BTW, he preferred the GT3.2RS over the 458 2 years ago in a test too.
If you check out his (DRIVE) clips, you'll find him a true enthusiast, with great driving skills and very outspoken, the latter partially the benefit of not being linked to a magazine that's depending on advertising sales anymore.
Hence my conclusion: if he (or somebody like him, but there aren't that many around, if you ask me) condemns the car for all the critiques that are thrown around on this forum, I fully believe it. Until that, I continue to assume it will be great, albeit sadly not MT.
If he is biased in any way, it is towards Porsche rather than against it, since he's got lots of history and racing experience with them, old and new, water and air-cooled, race and rally. BTW, he preferred the GT3.2RS over the 458 2 years ago in a test too.
If you check out his (DRIVE) clips, you'll find him a true enthusiast, with great driving skills and very outspoken, the latter partially the benefit of not being linked to a magazine that's depending on advertising sales anymore.
Hence my conclusion: if he (or somebody like him, but there aren't that many around, if you ask me) condemns the car for all the critiques that are thrown around on this forum, I fully believe it. Until that, I continue to assume it will be great, albeit sadly not MT.
06-03-2013, 06:22 AM
#114
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PDK has TWO clutches, so the manual transmission is still there. PDK has not killed the manual. It's only faster in the PDK because of the computer control. Calling it a robot is pretty generous. It's a computer program. I'd call it an appliance. When there is a car spinning out in front of you, how does auto PDK know what gear to choose? If you are out of the perfect racing line due to traffic how does auto PDK know what gear to choose? If a corner involves more than one downshift how does auto PDK know that? The driver has to intervene which means PDK is no faster than a manual.
If Porsche fails to put a manual in the GT3, a second party will lighten a manual 911S, make some gear and header changes, and put the overweight and appliance laden laziness of the GP3, Granny Paddle 3, to shame.
If Porsche fails to put a manual in the GT3, a second party will lighten a manual 911S, make some gear and header changes, and put the overweight and appliance laden laziness of the GP3, Granny Paddle 3, to shame.
06-03-2013, 07:22 AM
#115
PDK has TWO clutches, so the manual transmission is still there. PDK has not killed the manual. It's only faster in the PDK because of the computer control. Calling it a robot is pretty generous. It's a computer program. I'd call it an appliance. When there is a car spinning out in front of you, how does auto PDK know what gear to choose? If you are out of the perfect racing line due to traffic how does auto PDK know what gear to choose? If a corner involves more than one downshift how does auto PDK know that? The driver has to intervene which means PDK is no faster than a manual.
If Porsche fails to put a manual in the GT3, a second party will lighten a manual 911S, make some gear and header changes, and put the overweight and appliance laden laziness of the GP3, Granny Paddle 3, to shame.
If Porsche fails to put a manual in the GT3, a second party will lighten a manual 911S, make some gear and header changes, and put the overweight and appliance laden laziness of the GP3, Granny Paddle 3, to shame.
Hey, what if they have three clutches, one selected and two ready, even shorter shifting times. Is that like manual-squared?
One thing I give Porsche - they allowed the full gearbox disconnect in GT3 (pulling both paddles at the same time).
06-03-2013, 07:52 AM
#116
Rennlist Member
I'm keen to see how well the box holds up when someone is stomping on the gas in a slide and re-engages a gear... I hope they've fool proofed it so clutches and gears don't fry...
06-03-2013, 09:03 AM
#117
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Hamilton bought a 760 Pagani. With a manual transmission. Why? He said "Paddles I do at work. When I want to drive for excitement I prefer manual."
You know, when everyone does the same you have to follow, if you want to be a F1 driver. It is business and very big money. F1 has NOTHING to do with the personal choice.
You know, when everyone does the same you have to follow, if you want to be a F1 driver. It is business and very big money. F1 has NOTHING to do with the personal choice.
Edit: Nevermind I found it.
06-03-2013, 09:42 AM
#118
Rennlist Member
At least someone (Lewis Hamilton) gets what we're talking about... Not even he feels the need to be the fastest kid on the block when not competing...
