Killing the PDK
06-02-2013, 07:12 PM
#61
How is Harris an objective source? He sold his GT3RS 4.0 and replaced it with a robotized Ferrari.
06-02-2013, 07:16 PM
#62
Porsche executives claim that if PDK is a mistake they will correct it with the 991GT3RS. Those of you against PDK and demanding MT why don't you contact these executives (both AP and Hatz are on record they will revert back to MT if PDK does not work out) and ask them what will be the criteria in deciding whether PDK is a success in the GT3? Will it be based on sales, journalist reviews or something else? We already know PDK out performs MT by a wide margin in track activities so how will they decide?
In other words, if it means that much to you get proactive and call them on the carpet. It will not matter to those of us who want PDK. From this point forward, Porsche will be offering PDK on their race cars. The battle will be if they make MT available.
In other words, if it means that much to you get proactive and call them on the carpet. It will not matter to those of us who want PDK. From this point forward, Porsche will be offering PDK on their race cars. The battle will be if they make MT available.
06-02-2013, 07:23 PM
#63
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
I wonder how many of the people who are dumping on PDK have actually driven one?
06-02-2013, 08:14 PM
#65
.
06-02-2013, 08:26 PM
#66
06-02-2013, 08:38 PM
#68
The irony in this whole debate is that I think almost everyone respects the new car. The new 991 GT3 looks to be the best 911 "Carrera" Porsche has made since the end of the 993. It's fast, finally has a quality motor without IMS issues, heavenly noise, and a quality interior to boot. No doubt a lot of people who would otherwise buy a 991S and don't need backseats are simply going to buy this car instead. I mean -- well equipped this thing is 140k vs 125k for a well-equipped PDK 991S, it's a steal really. ...and what in this price-range outside of Porsche even comes close to the entire package? I would argue nothing.
The issue that I have (and I think a lot of others have) is that it's no GT3. To be a GT3 the car should have some linkage to the actual 991 Cup Car and quite frankly I'm scratching my head as to what that might be...
To me, the 997.2 GT3 is the last GT3 and this new car is the pinnacle of the 991 Carrera. It's easy to see in the arguments who is a GT3 enthusiast and who simply wanted a much better Carrera.
I wanted the 997.2 GT3 wrapped in the 991 package like the 991 cup car was and I can't see myself paying 140k for this when a new 2013 base 911 will probably be available for 75k with dealer cash and discount sometime this winter. I also think the front end on the new GT3 is hideous...
06-02-2013, 08:45 PM
#69
I've driven it extensively and love it for a daily driver. ...but for a GT3?
The irony in this whole debate is that I think almost everyone respects the new car. The new 991 GT3 looks to be the best 911 "Carrera" Porsche has made since the end of the 993. It's fast, finally has a quality motor without IMS issues, heavenly noise, and a quality interior to boot. No doubt a lot of people who would otherwise buy a 991S and don't need backseats are simply going to buy this car instead. I mean -- well equipped this thing is 140k vs 125k for a well-equipped PDK 991S, it's a steal really. ...and what in this price-range outside of Porsche even comes close to the entire package? I would argue nothing.
The issue that I have (and I think a lot of others have) is that it's no GT3. To be a GT3 the car should have some linkage to the actual 991 Cup Car and quite frankly I'm scratching my head as to what that might be...
To me, the 997.2 GT3 is the last GT3 and this new car is the pinnacle of the 991 Carrera. It's easy to see in the arguments who is a GT3 enthusiast and who simply wanted a much better Carrera.
The irony in this whole debate is that I think almost everyone respects the new car. The new 991 GT3 looks to be the best 911 "Carrera" Porsche has made since the end of the 993. It's fast, finally has a quality motor without IMS issues, heavenly noise, and a quality interior to boot. No doubt a lot of people who would otherwise buy a 991S and don't need backseats are simply going to buy this car instead. I mean -- well equipped this thing is 140k vs 125k for a well-equipped PDK 991S, it's a steal really. ...and what in this price-range outside of Porsche even comes close to the entire package? I would argue nothing.
The issue that I have (and I think a lot of others have) is that it's no GT3. To be a GT3 the car should have some linkage to the actual 991 Cup Car and quite frankly I'm scratching my head as to what that might be...
To me, the 997.2 GT3 is the last GT3 and this new car is the pinnacle of the 991 Carrera. It's easy to see in the arguments who is a GT3 enthusiast and who simply wanted a much better Carrera.
06-02-2013, 08:57 PM
#70
...basically I'm saying the new 991 GT3 is almost the perfect 911 water-cooled "Carrera" but it's not a "GT3"...
06-02-2013, 08:59 PM
#71
Race Director
BTW, I realize the use of the pejorative term "robot" is purposeful, as is the assertion that the "robot" will soon take over the wheel, brake, and other functions while we plug in our desired lap times, and of course it's all slippery-slope straw man hogwash. Someone needs to tell the drivers in F1 and other race series that their paddle gearboxes are the precursor to total machine control, and soon they while be replaced "robots"! Sebastian Mettal! LOL.
06-02-2013, 09:00 PM
#72
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
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Where did this guy come from, I like the way he thinks. I agree!
Except I will be the last of the stubborn guys still driving a manual when everyone else gives in.
Except I will be the last of the stubborn guys still driving a manual when everyone else gives in.
I thought the human behind the wheel was the weak link.
I was wrong, it is the manual gearbox that is the weak link. Weak in the sense 99% of "drivers" do not know how to operate is correctly, so instead of learning they go the easy instant gratification way - the PDK. One thing less to learn, so must be good, right?
Next weak link to eliminate - the steering wheel. Let the computer find the correct apex.
Oh, I forgot about the gas and brake pedals, the computer knows better how much and when to break, turn and accelerate. Worth those 0.5 seconds on the track! It is all about instantly being fast on the track, isn't it?
No time to learn, lets do those launch control starts and do laps, and then brag about how fast "we" drove!
I do not know who buys 458, Lambos, 911 Turbos, Mercedes, but given the fact that average buyer of 911 Turbo in US is 55+ and the fact that Porsche targets men 45+, I could imagine for the other brands as well.
Old guys have money, what they do not have is desire to operate manual transmissions, they just want to relax.
The very young generation is just focused on the numbers, who is faster 0-60 and such, they do not give a shid about manual transmission.
The only enthusiasts left are 30-40 year old guys...who in time will become relaxed PDK, computerized-steering-wheel-gas-and-brake-pedals drivers.
The big "sport car" companies made the decision for customers regarding the automatic transmissions. 458 may be a great car, same goes for Enzo, but F40 will ALWAYS be THE Ferrari.
I was wrong, it is the manual gearbox that is the weak link. Weak in the sense 99% of "drivers" do not know how to operate is correctly, so instead of learning they go the easy instant gratification way - the PDK. One thing less to learn, so must be good, right?
Next weak link to eliminate - the steering wheel. Let the computer find the correct apex.
Oh, I forgot about the gas and brake pedals, the computer knows better how much and when to break, turn and accelerate. Worth those 0.5 seconds on the track! It is all about instantly being fast on the track, isn't it?
No time to learn, lets do those launch control starts and do laps, and then brag about how fast "we" drove!
I do not know who buys 458, Lambos, 911 Turbos, Mercedes, but given the fact that average buyer of 911 Turbo in US is 55+ and the fact that Porsche targets men 45+, I could imagine for the other brands as well.
Old guys have money, what they do not have is desire to operate manual transmissions, they just want to relax.
The very young generation is just focused on the numbers, who is faster 0-60 and such, they do not give a shid about manual transmission.
The only enthusiasts left are 30-40 year old guys...who in time will become relaxed PDK, computerized-steering-wheel-gas-and-brake-pedals drivers.
The big "sport car" companies made the decision for customers regarding the automatic transmissions. 458 may be a great car, same goes for Enzo, but F40 will ALWAYS be THE Ferrari.
Ferrari is considering limiting the numbers of cars they sell. Is this bad business?
Porsche sales consist of Cayennes and Panameras to 80%, and soon they will have a cheaper Macan on the market. 911 is insignificant for Porsche, it is only there to protect the brand name (in the sense that when you say word "Porsche", 99% of people instantly think of 911) but Porsche is doing bad job. Too commercialized now, too much marketing.
I am sure new 991 GT3 is faster, better car, but so was 997.2 compared to 997.1 and 997.1 compared to 996. It is faster but softer, to attract new customers, like someone mentioned here before, customers who want something with a GT name but more comfortable and easier to move around in pretending to be hard-core driver. Porsche listened and ching-ching, they release 991 GT3 without race seats and on 20" wheels, rear-wheel steering, electronic steering, PDK. Great for VW coffers, I am sure.
Then they go and try to convince people this is the real racing car, great successor to 996 and 997 GT3. I respectfully disagree. It is ALL marketing, also from Mr. "Grandmas can use paddles. They aren't challenging" Preuninger.
Porsche sales consist of Cayennes and Panameras to 80%, and soon they will have a cheaper Macan on the market. 911 is insignificant for Porsche, it is only there to protect the brand name (in the sense that when you say word "Porsche", 99% of people instantly think of 911) but Porsche is doing bad job. Too commercialized now, too much marketing.
I am sure new 991 GT3 is faster, better car, but so was 997.2 compared to 997.1 and 997.1 compared to 996. It is faster but softer, to attract new customers, like someone mentioned here before, customers who want something with a GT name but more comfortable and easier to move around in pretending to be hard-core driver. Porsche listened and ching-ching, they release 991 GT3 without race seats and on 20" wheels, rear-wheel steering, electronic steering, PDK. Great for VW coffers, I am sure.
Then they go and try to convince people this is the real racing car, great successor to 996 and 997 GT3. I respectfully disagree. It is ALL marketing, also from Mr. "Grandmas can use paddles. They aren't challenging" Preuninger.
06-02-2013, 09:01 PM
#73
And cheese is cheese.....So what? What's important is not what it is, it's how well it works, and no matter what your bias is, you simply can't make that determination without knowledge.
BTW, I realize the use of the pejorative term "robot" is purposeful, as is the assertion that the "robot" will soon take over the wheel, brake, and other functions while we plug in our desired lap times, and of course it's all slippery-slope straw man hogwash. Someone needs to tell the drivers in F1 and other race series that their paddle gearboxes are the precursor to total machine control, and soon they while be replaced "robots"! Sebastian Mettal! LOL.
BTW, I realize the use of the pejorative term "robot" is purposeful, as is the assertion that the "robot" will soon take over the wheel, brake, and other functions while we plug in our desired lap times, and of course it's all slippery-slope straw man hogwash. Someone needs to tell the drivers in F1 and other race series that their paddle gearboxes are the precursor to total machine control, and soon they while be replaced "robots"! Sebastian Mettal! LOL.
Pay attention to what Lewis Hamilton drives or his comments about driving Ayrton Senna's ride...
06-02-2013, 09:01 PM
#74
No...I'm referring to cars since the end of the 993 in general....not the specific differences between current cars...you can add RMS as another issue the current motor has fixed and you're just adding to my point...
...basically I'm saying the new 991 GT3 is almost the perfect 911 water-cooled "Carrera" but it's not a "GT3"...
...basically I'm saying the new 991 GT3 is almost the perfect 911 water-cooled "Carrera" but it's not a "GT3"...
Transmission; subjective... what else? This I'd like to hear...
06-02-2013, 09:04 PM
#75