Andreas Preuninger interview - Interesting point of view from 2011
05-27-2013, 01:31 PM
#16
Race Director
He made himself a liar, not me. If you take everything you hear at face value, man, I really feel for you.
What did you expect him to say? "They twisted my arm until I gave in to the PDK"? You couldn't possibly be that naive. There is absolutely zero chance we would get an answer from AP that said he doesn't like the PDK in the GT3 but had to do it anyways because VW said so. ZERO. He will sell what he wants and backtrack on his previous statements like a proper politician.
Listen to what he said regarding PDK and why not, and you will see that the PDK-S does not solve those problems.
- It's not a pure motorsport gearbox
- It does not save any weight
- It does not prevent added weight to the back of the car
- It does not give customers additional means of control and connection with a clutch.
That was pretty much every comment he made with regards to why manual. PDK-S only solves the being able to do a doughnut easily. This makes him categorically a liar. In his own words.
Buy that nonsense if you want to. I'll pass.
What did you expect him to say? "They twisted my arm until I gave in to the PDK"? You couldn't possibly be that naive. There is absolutely zero chance we would get an answer from AP that said he doesn't like the PDK in the GT3 but had to do it anyways because VW said so. ZERO. He will sell what he wants and backtrack on his previous statements like a proper politician.
Listen to what he said regarding PDK and why not, and you will see that the PDK-S does not solve those problems.
- It's not a pure motorsport gearbox
- It does not save any weight
- It does not prevent added weight to the back of the car
- It does not give customers additional means of control and connection with a clutch.
That was pretty much every comment he made with regards to why manual. PDK-S only solves the being able to do a doughnut easily. This makes him categorically a liar. In his own words.
Buy that nonsense if you want to. I'll pass.
As to your specific points, PDK-S has addressed them taken in the context of the 991:
-Almost no one is still using manual gearboxes in motorsport so a revised PDK with a true manual mode is now more like racing sequential than a MT.
-PDK-S is lighter than the 2011 PDK and the in-general lighter 991, relocation of the engine in the chassis, and RWS have significantly addressed issues around weight at the rear.
-Super-quick shift times, full manual mode, the ability to declutch, + performance advantages have increased involvement and control to the point where PDK became as involving in the eyes of the development team.
For every "proof" that AP is a "catagorical liar" there is a reasonable explanation for why he changed his mind. Given his record of designing great cars and just as a matter of simple fairness, he deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt, especially since he's driven the end result, and you haven't.
I don't take everything at face value, wanna911, just as I hope you don't see conspiracies, lying, and naivete in everyone who thinks differently than you do.
05-27-2013, 01:36 PM
#17
Re: Andreas Preuninger
VW happened.
Simple fact is that AP has a new person signing his check. He is full of it about how this pdk changed his mind. He simply has no choice. Hard to fault him, its not his fault he got screwed over by the VW takeover.
He must show conviction or be ousted. Its in plain site.
VW are the biggest pushers of dual clutch on the planet. They had no reason to offer manual on the base and not gt3 other than vw agenda.
Simple fact is that AP has a new person signing his check. He is full of it about how this pdk changed his mind. He simply has no choice. Hard to fault him, its not his fault he got screwed over by the VW takeover.
He must show conviction or be ousted. Its in plain site.
VW are the biggest pushers of dual clutch on the planet. They had no reason to offer manual on the base and not gt3 other than vw agenda.
I personally don't think it (the 'VW' merger event) would have impacted the development of the 991 gt3 one way or another! I don't consider VW anti-manual transmission! The biggest proof I can offer of that is that Audi is offering both a manual and their new (internally developed) PDK like S-Tronic transmission on their 'top' MY2014 R8 model - the V10 Plus! Just a few years ago, Audi had offered only their older R-Tronic transmission on their '12 R8 GT! So I don't see a conspiracy of VW to deny us Manual Transmissions in our Porsches or anything else*. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Porsche offering PDK-Sport on the new gt3 model. Many of us would just simply like the choice of a manual too! And it is not within the realm of possibilities that we will see such a transmission offered on the 991 gt3 and/or RS before long...simply due to US consumer demand! Stranger things have happened in German auto circles!
I think Andreas Preuninger is one of the most charismatic auto executives in the German auto industry today! I have been tracking Porsche executives since my first contact with them at Zuffenhausen in 1981! We haven't seen the likes of someone like Andreas, a combination of his intimate knowledge of the racing engineering, personal charm and superb skills in articulating his point of view, at Porsche in a very long time! Even Ferdinand Piëch, one of the most skilled engineers of his generation and sole heir among the offsprings of his famous grandfather in those particular talents, never had the charm that is required to become truly an exceptional & inspiring corporate leader! Andreas Preuninger has charm and charisma in spades! If his domain, Porsche Motorsports / Porsche High Performance Vehicles, is deemed by his superiors as a well run organization and success in the next few years, I see nothing but 'blue sky' for Andreas at Porsche and the German auto industry in general!
So keep that in mind, he needs us (the American gt consumer) as much as we need him! He needs to make Porsche Motorsports / Porsche High Performance Vehicles successful at ALL levels, including customer satisfaction here in the US! I am very hopeful that Andreas will rise to the occasion. That is why some of us here at Rennlist have offered constructive criticism (e.g. please no jokes about the 997 gt3 issues and help those customers resolve these issues to their satisfaction...for safety's sake) to help him avoid these type of pitfalls in the future! We want him to be successful and not to fail!
The videos attached to this post are important in more ways than to remember his words about PDK in that gt2 RS model. We now have a three years perspective on the 'realities' of how that particular gt2 RS model turned out vs the words that were expressed by Andreas at its debut! I think it would be a worthwhile discussion on this forum to revisit the 'gt2 RS' and see how it lived up to those lofty expectations which were communicated to us at in 2010! For that I would love to see owners & former superactive members like 'savyboy' to return and give us their perspective today! We need to learn from experience. And Andreas, is he is going to succeed in climbing to the top of the Porsche corporate establishment, needs to understand that words have meaning...and we will hold him accountable for them! It is all healthy. Let's have that conversation.
My dos centavos, for what is worth!
Saludos & a salute to all our veterans (past & present),
Eduardo
Colorado
PS Keep in mind that manuals to Germans and Europeans have long been associated with cheaper 'econo' vehicles and are ubiquitous in Europe! Americans associate 'automatics' with the non-sport US vehicles & Japanese imports. Without question, Europeans have been more 'accepting' of the new dual clutch technology than Americans for reasons that we can easily explain. It doesn't mean we are 'clueless'...it is just that many of us feel different about the involvement the manual offers our driving experience! Different strokes for different folks...but a consumer oriented company will always cater to its client's peculiar tastes!
05-27-2013, 02:10 PM
#18
Banned
Thread Starter
Well I can understand that he might 'conveniently changed his mind' but unfortunately I'm not that easy to convince.
Give us the old slow stupid outdated manual as an option and no drama, it would make us all happy.
All in all the PDK is not even close to a sequential tranny. In fact the manuals are more like it, and between both we can find one step below the sequential which are the dogbox tranny with H-pattern. Those are really close to a sequential box.
Fast, for sure, no questions about it. Durability still to be seen, but hopefully will be bullet proof with proper cooling.
The point is in that interview there is a lot more than just the PDK discrepancy, it's a whole new context.
Give us the old slow stupid outdated manual as an option and no drama, it would make us all happy.
All in all the PDK is not even close to a sequential tranny. In fact the manuals are more like it, and between both we can find one step below the sequential which are the dogbox tranny with H-pattern. Those are really close to a sequential box.
Fast, for sure, no questions about it. Durability still to be seen, but hopefully will be bullet proof with proper cooling.
The point is in that interview there is a lot more than just the PDK discrepancy, it's a whole new context.
05-27-2013, 02:15 PM
#19
Banned
Thread Starter
I have a different take. The 'VW' merger was going to happen regardless, whether led by Wendelin Wiedeking/Wolfgang Porsche or Martin Winterkorn/Ferdinand Piëch! We really don't know (to this day) the whole story behind this failed Porsche take-over attempt of VW...and the consequences WITHIN the Porsche/Piëch family when it all unraveled. I am waiting for THAT book to be published!
I personally don't think it (the 'VW' merger event) would have impacted the development of the 991 gt3 one way or another! I don't consider VW anti-manual transmission! The biggest proof I can offer of that is that Audi is offering both a manual and their new (internally developed) PDK like S-Tronic transmission on their 'top' MY2014 R8 model - the V10 Plus! Just a few years ago, Audi had offered only their older R-Tronic transmission on their '12 R8 GT! So I don't see a conspiracy of VW to deny us Manual Transmissions in our Porsches or anything else*. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Porsche offering PDK-Sport on the new gt3 model. Many of us would just simply like the choice of a manual too! And it is not within the realm of possibilities that we will see such a transmission offered on the 991 gt3 and/or RS before long...simply due to US consumer demand! Stranger things have happened in German auto circles!
I think Andreas Preuninger is one of the most charismatic auto executives in the German auto industry today! I have been tracking Porsche executives since my first contact with them at Zuffenhausen in 1981! We haven't seen the likes of someone like Andreas, a combination of his intimate knowledge of the racing engineering, personal charm and superb skills in articulating his point of view, at Porsche in a very long time! Even Ferdinand Piëch, one of the most skilled engineers of his generation and sole heir among the offsprings of his famous grandfather in those particular talents, never had the charm that is required to become truly an exceptional & inspiring corporate leader! Andreas Preuninger has charm and charisma in spades! If his domain, Porsche Motorsports / Porsche High Performance Vehicles, is deemed by his superiors as a well run organization and success in the next few years, I see nothing but 'blue sky' for Andreas at Porsche and the German auto industry in general!
So keep that in mind, he needs us (the American gt consumer) as much as we need him! He needs to make Porsche Motorsports / Porsche High Performance Vehicles successful at ALL levels, including customer satisfaction here in the US! I am very hopeful that Andreas will rise to the occasion. That is why some of us here at Rennlist have offered constructive criticism (e.g. please no jokes about the 997 gt3 issues and help those customers resolve these issues to their satisfaction...for safety's sake) to help him avoid these type of pitfalls in the future! We want him to be successful and not to fail!
The videos attached to this post are important in more ways than to remember his words about PDK in that gt2 RS model. We now have a three years perspective on the 'realities' of how that particular gt2 RS model turned out vs the words that were expressed by Andreas at its debut! I think it would be a worthwhile discussion on this forum to revisit the 'gt2 RS' and see how it lived up to those lofty expectations which were communicated to us at in 2010! For that I would love to see owners & former superactive members like 'savyboy' to return and give us their perspective today! We need to learn from experience. And Andreas, is he is going to succeed in climbing to the top of the Porsche corporate establishment, needs to understand that words have meaning...and we will hold him accountable for them! It is all healthy. Let's have that conversation.
My dos centavos, for what is worth!
Saludos & a salute to all our veterans (past & present),
Eduardo
Colorado
PS Keep in mind that manuals to Germans and Europeans have long been associated with cheaper 'econo' vehicles and are ubiquitous in Europe! Americans associate 'automatics' with the non-sport US vehicles & Japanese imports. Without question, Europeans have been more 'accepting' of the new dual clutch technology than Americans for reasons that we can easily explain. It doesn't mean we are 'clueless'...it is just that many of us feel different about the involvement the manual offers our driving experience! Different strokes for different folks...but a consumer oriented company will always cater to its client's peculiar tastes!
I personally don't think it (the 'VW' merger event) would have impacted the development of the 991 gt3 one way or another! I don't consider VW anti-manual transmission! The biggest proof I can offer of that is that Audi is offering both a manual and their new (internally developed) PDK like S-Tronic transmission on their 'top' MY2014 R8 model - the V10 Plus! Just a few years ago, Audi had offered only their older R-Tronic transmission on their '12 R8 GT! So I don't see a conspiracy of VW to deny us Manual Transmissions in our Porsches or anything else*. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with Porsche offering PDK-Sport on the new gt3 model. Many of us would just simply like the choice of a manual too! And it is not within the realm of possibilities that we will see such a transmission offered on the 991 gt3 and/or RS before long...simply due to US consumer demand! Stranger things have happened in German auto circles!
I think Andreas Preuninger is one of the most charismatic auto executives in the German auto industry today! I have been tracking Porsche executives since my first contact with them at Zuffenhausen in 1981! We haven't seen the likes of someone like Andreas, a combination of his intimate knowledge of the racing engineering, personal charm and superb skills in articulating his point of view, at Porsche in a very long time! Even Ferdinand Piëch, one of the most skilled engineers of his generation and sole heir among the offsprings of his famous grandfather in those particular talents, never had the charm that is required to become truly an exceptional & inspiring corporate leader! Andreas Preuninger has charm and charisma in spades! If his domain, Porsche Motorsports / Porsche High Performance Vehicles, is deemed by his superiors as a well run organization and success in the next few years, I see nothing but 'blue sky' for Andreas at Porsche and the German auto industry in general!
So keep that in mind, he needs us (the American gt consumer) as much as we need him! He needs to make Porsche Motorsports / Porsche High Performance Vehicles successful at ALL levels, including customer satisfaction here in the US! I am very hopeful that Andreas will rise to the occasion. That is why some of us here at Rennlist have offered constructive criticism (e.g. please no jokes about the 997 gt3 issues and help those customers resolve these issues to their satisfaction...for safety's sake) to help him avoid these type of pitfalls in the future! We want him to be successful and not to fail!
The videos attached to this post are important in more ways than to remember his words about PDK in that gt2 RS model. We now have a three years perspective on the 'realities' of how that particular gt2 RS model turned out vs the words that were expressed by Andreas at its debut! I think it would be a worthwhile discussion on this forum to revisit the 'gt2 RS' and see how it lived up to those lofty expectations which were communicated to us at in 2010! For that I would love to see owners & former superactive members like 'savyboy' to return and give us their perspective today! We need to learn from experience. And Andreas, is he is going to succeed in climbing to the top of the Porsche corporate establishment, needs to understand that words have meaning...and we will hold him accountable for them! It is all healthy. Let's have that conversation.
My dos centavos, for what is worth!
Saludos & a salute to all our veterans (past & present),
Eduardo
Colorado
PS Keep in mind that manuals to Germans and Europeans have long been associated with cheaper 'econo' vehicles and are ubiquitous in Europe! Americans associate 'automatics' with the non-sport US vehicles & Japanese imports. Without question, Europeans have been more 'accepting' of the new dual clutch technology than Americans for reasons that we can easily explain. It doesn't mean we are 'clueless'...it is just that many of us feel different about the involvement the manual offers our driving experience! Different strokes for different folks...but a consumer oriented company will always cater to its client's peculiar tastes!
The man himself says about the growing DE / Track clientele, that prays for driving experience, feeling, analog car that can withstand double duty, and in his words these are the cars for that.
It's a lot of food for thought from what was said in late 2010 and what it's being done in 2013. Not a big gap in my experience.
05-27-2013, 05:20 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
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Well, I think if you would invite AP for 5 beers in the evening...after 3-4 he would tell you that he personally also prefers a manual..but marketing, china, profit margin etc.
Why do I think so? He is the man behind the glorious 4.0, Gt2RS, the 3.8 GT3 etc..one person cannot change so fundamentally in such a short time..its like going in three years from republicans to democrats, or from islam to christianity...I know I am exagerating...but there is some truth in it.
Another element that proves my idea: Mr Hatz - Porsche R&D chef specifically got a 4.0RS from Porsche - as a personal car..but its mostly in his garage. In Interviews he is trying to sell us PdK as the future etc..but with his own money he buys a 4.0 (with ancient 19th century gearbox) - and not a 991 Gt3 or 991S etc !
Says all - doesnt it..
With regards to AP, the "stupid" thing was that he said things about "grand-ma´s" etc...and todays internet doesnt forget..but he should have known it. From a communication point of view his expressions are a desaster..and seriously undermined his credibility. It would have been better if he didnt mention some sentences..buts thats life.
The story of Mr Hatz and the 4.0 speaks for itself...- at least for me.
Why do I think so? He is the man behind the glorious 4.0, Gt2RS, the 3.8 GT3 etc..one person cannot change so fundamentally in such a short time..its like going in three years from republicans to democrats, or from islam to christianity...I know I am exagerating...but there is some truth in it.
Another element that proves my idea: Mr Hatz - Porsche R&D chef specifically got a 4.0RS from Porsche - as a personal car..but its mostly in his garage. In Interviews he is trying to sell us PdK as the future etc..but with his own money he buys a 4.0 (with ancient 19th century gearbox) - and not a 991 Gt3 or 991S etc !
Says all - doesnt it..
With regards to AP, the "stupid" thing was that he said things about "grand-ma´s" etc...and todays internet doesnt forget..but he should have known it. From a communication point of view his expressions are a desaster..and seriously undermined his credibility. It would have been better if he didnt mention some sentences..buts thats life.
The story of Mr Hatz and the 4.0 speaks for itself...- at least for me.
05-27-2013, 05:29 PM
#21
Banned
Thread Starter
^^^ This !
Some guys here will always find an explanation on why Mr. AP changed his mind or that Porsche finally developed the ultimate system and AP finally saw the light....
Sad.
Some guys here will always find an explanation on why Mr. AP changed his mind or that Porsche finally developed the ultimate system and AP finally saw the light....
Sad.
05-27-2013, 05:49 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
I have a different take. The 'VW' merger was going to happen regardless, whether led by Wendelin Wiedeking/Wolfgang Porsche or Martin Winterkorn/Ferdinand Piëch! We really don't know (to this day) the whole story behind this failed Porsche take-over attempt of VW...and the consequences WITHIN the Porsche/Piëch family when it all unraveled. I am waiting for THAT book to be published!
Now there's a book I'd like to see Chris Harris write.....where do I sign up for the pre-sale?
05-27-2013, 05:53 PM
#23
Burning Brakes
Tis part of what makes Rennlist...well entertaining...a ribald, slugfest of opinion difference.
(<- koolaid?)As long as we don't get personal...all is good.
We are afterall a passionate bunch of petrolheads....and that by my reckoning...in this day and age ain't too bad at all....
05-27-2013, 06:06 PM
#24
Race Director
Another element that proves my idea: Mr Hatz - Porsche R&D chef specifically got a 4.0RS from Porsche - as a personal car..but its mostly in his garage. In Interviews he is trying to sell us PdK as the future etc..but with his own money he buys a 4.0 (with ancient 19th century gearbox) - and not a 991 Gt3 or 991S etc !
The story of Mr Hatz and the 4.0 speaks for itself...- at least for me.
The story of Mr Hatz and the 4.0 speaks for itself...- at least for me.
Interesting story, but hardly definitive.
Last edited by Mike in CA; 05-27-2013 at 06:28 PM.
05-27-2013, 08:50 PM
#25
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Well, I think if you would invite AP for 5 beers in the evening...after 3-4 he would tell you that he personally also prefers a manual..but marketing, china, profit margin etc.
Why do I think so? He is the man behind the glorious 4.0, Gt2RS, the 3.8 GT3 etc..one person cannot change so fundamentally in such a short time..its like going in three years from republicans to democrats, or from islam to christianity...I know I am exagerating...but there is some truth in it.
Why do I think so? He is the man behind the glorious 4.0, Gt2RS, the 3.8 GT3 etc..one person cannot change so fundamentally in such a short time..its like going in three years from republicans to democrats, or from islam to christianity...I know I am exagerating...but there is some truth in it.
Why do people get so worked up. Its pretty funny. Manual is going away. Its technology that is going away. Like many technologies that have gone away. Ferrari - no, Lambo - no, McLaren - no. So which sports car that's any decent make one. 4WD Audi and Viper, Corvette - am I missing any..
But the beauty is that you can buy older cars that still have it - a 430 Ferrari with one, there are over 1000 GT3's / GT2's that were made, an F40, Carrera GT and so forth. In 2020 manual will be way done - we are just going through the transition era right now. Porsche held on longer than most.
I wouldn't call people who yearn for manuals - luddites. At the same time those who want one should scan all the aforementioned "older" car classifieds to buy one - many around. I'll probably always want to have one. But have also moved on.
05-27-2013, 08:58 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Will somewhat explain why Porsche decided to go with PDK exclusively for the 991GT3? Some believe it is a corporate conspiracy to eliminate MT. Yet the MT can still be ordered with the base 911 models.
Is it profit? There is no additional charge for PDK. Some will say it is built into the price and I agree but they could have easily charge the same MSRP with the cheaper MT.
Some claim they are catering to a different demographic who prefer PDK. The 991GT3 isn't produced in numbers like the regular 911. Porsche had their client base which bought every GT3 they produced. There was absolutely no need to focus on a different market segment. They had all the buyers they needed.
So what is it? Could it be like Ferrari and other car manufacturers have learned that the cars they are producing today are so advanced that a superior transmission is required to extract the performance parameters the car is capable of? What is the point of building a car with superior driving dynamics if you do not equip it with the necessary technology to support the advanced characteristics of the car?
Is it profit? There is no additional charge for PDK. Some will say it is built into the price and I agree but they could have easily charge the same MSRP with the cheaper MT.
Some claim they are catering to a different demographic who prefer PDK. The 991GT3 isn't produced in numbers like the regular 911. Porsche had their client base which bought every GT3 they produced. There was absolutely no need to focus on a different market segment. They had all the buyers they needed.
So what is it? Could it be like Ferrari and other car manufacturers have learned that the cars they are producing today are so advanced that a superior transmission is required to extract the performance parameters the car is capable of? What is the point of building a car with superior driving dynamics if you do not equip it with the necessary technology to support the advanced characteristics of the car?
05-27-2013, 10:37 PM
#27
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'collector is on to something.
I have 4 Germans that work for me. 3 with PhD's. 1 of them 6'7", or I jokingly state, 3 meters. Have traveled quite a bit around Germany recently and met with the head legal team at BMW Munich and Beiersdorf in Hamburg. I've had a crash course in 'dealing with Germans' in 24 months. It's been fun and frustrating.
I've also had similar experiences with the Chinese, and now have a Chinese lawyer on staff.
Growing up in the US, I've learned the hard way that cultural divides play heavily in interpreting statements/behaviour.
My take on AP is that he really is an enthusiast and believes that the new PDK is the best of its kind. That doesn't mean he doesn't prefer the analogue feel of the 4.0. I've perhaps had too much vino this evening but when citing the involvement of the PDK transmission, he leaned on item such as hearing the boom of the upshifts in the black forest (or somesuch) and the 'near' sequential feel. The comments were more in a vacuum than in direct comparison to his experience in the 4.0.
Interesting that he chose more abstract comparisons than in direct relation to the king.
IMO.
I have 4 Germans that work for me. 3 with PhD's. 1 of them 6'7", or I jokingly state, 3 meters. Have traveled quite a bit around Germany recently and met with the head legal team at BMW Munich and Beiersdorf in Hamburg. I've had a crash course in 'dealing with Germans' in 24 months. It's been fun and frustrating.
I've also had similar experiences with the Chinese, and now have a Chinese lawyer on staff.
Growing up in the US, I've learned the hard way that cultural divides play heavily in interpreting statements/behaviour.
My take on AP is that he really is an enthusiast and believes that the new PDK is the best of its kind. That doesn't mean he doesn't prefer the analogue feel of the 4.0. I've perhaps had too much vino this evening but when citing the involvement of the PDK transmission, he leaned on item such as hearing the boom of the upshifts in the black forest (or somesuch) and the 'near' sequential feel. The comments were more in a vacuum than in direct comparison to his experience in the 4.0.
Interesting that he chose more abstract comparisons than in direct relation to the king.
IMO.
05-27-2013, 11:00 PM
#28
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So if I have one of each am I a hypocrite or an idiot
Why do people get so worked up. Its pretty funny. Manual is going away. Its technology that is going away. Like many technologies that have gone away. Ferrari - no, Lambo - no, McLaren - no. So which sports car that's any decent make one. 4WD Audi and Viper, Corvette - am I missing any..
But the beauty is that you can buy older cars that still have it - a 430 Ferrari with one, there are over 1000 GT3's / GT2's that were made, an F40, Carrera GT and so forth. In 2020 manual will be way done - we are just going through the transition era right now. Porsche held on longer than most.
I wouldn't call people who yearn for manuals - luddites. At the same time those who want one should scan all the aforementioned "older" car classifieds to buy one - many around. I'll probably always want to have one. But have also moved on.
Why do people get so worked up. Its pretty funny. Manual is going away. Its technology that is going away. Like many technologies that have gone away. Ferrari - no, Lambo - no, McLaren - no. So which sports car that's any decent make one. 4WD Audi and Viper, Corvette - am I missing any..
But the beauty is that you can buy older cars that still have it - a 430 Ferrari with one, there are over 1000 GT3's / GT2's that were made, an F40, Carrera GT and so forth. In 2020 manual will be way done - we are just going through the transition era right now. Porsche held on longer than most.
I wouldn't call people who yearn for manuals - luddites. At the same time those who want one should scan all the aforementioned "older" car classifieds to buy one - many around. I'll probably always want to have one. But have also moved on.
What cars do you see at the track the most (that are relevant to the discussion, newer higher performance cars)? Porsche, Corvette, Viper, Mustang, Camaro, Evo, (FRS/BRZ up and coming).
Ever since BMW went all automated, you hardly see them at the track much where they used to be a dominant force at most track days. Porsche has always bridged the gap between practical and performance. Porsche is trying to put the 911 into a market segment in which is doesn't belong....
05-27-2013, 11:10 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
People keep using Ferrari and Lambo and Mclaren as an example, you see pretty much none of those at the track. And the ones that do track are mostly novice level drivers. Even some of the guys racing Ferrari Challenge are novice/intermediate level drivers. lol.
What cars do you see at the track the most (that are relevant to the discussion, newer higher performance cars)? Porsche, Corvette, Viper, Mustang, Camaro, Evo, (FRS/BRZ up and coming).
Ever since BMW went all automated, you hardly see them at the track much where they used to be a dominant force at most track days. Porsche has always bridged the gap between practical and performance. Porsche is trying to put the 911 into a market segment in which is doesn't belong....
What cars do you see at the track the most (that are relevant to the discussion, newer higher performance cars)? Porsche, Corvette, Viper, Mustang, Camaro, Evo, (FRS/BRZ up and coming).
Ever since BMW went all automated, you hardly see them at the track much where they used to be a dominant force at most track days. Porsche has always bridged the gap between practical and performance. Porsche is trying to put the 911 into a market segment in which is doesn't belong....
When I owned Porsche's I track them regularly. Once I started buying Ferrari's, I did not track them even though Ferrari warranty covered track events. Ferrari owners often are former Porsche owners. THey know how to drive and track cars.
Think man think!
